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 Lynata wrote:

cadbren wrote:Of course every marine can drive well. My point is that for every driver (of rhinos at least) there is a marine not engaging the enemy.

That's exactly my point as well! Just that I'm coming from the angle where I consider that a dedicated driver is a Marine never available to engage the enemy on foot (and thus in many cases not seeing a lot of action), whereas having them all be able to jump into this role on an as-needed basis (with a certain order of from where they are pulled) means that whoever is in command of the mission can juggle around available resources to the most efficient manner..

The problem is, this is looking at the problem backwards. Having no dedicated drivers hampers the Chapter's ability to prosecute the ground campaign to its maximum effectiveness and seriously dilutes total combat effectiveness and power projection. Having dedicated drivers that are not utilized because of the Codex Astartes' rules on limitations on Space Marine ground combatants simply means that resources are unnecessarily underutilized.

I'll let you decide which is the worse problem, however, there is a correct answer, and there is nothing about the first option that any military commander would ever call "most efficient", when he is forced to mathematically eliminate his combat capabilities based on an insufficient amount of manpower.

2E Ultramarines Codex about how every single Space Marine gets trained as a driver

What's the relevance? Nobody has ever suggested assignment to the armory or a vehicle crew is permanent. If anything, it simply highlights the adaptability of the individual Marine, in that he spends his career fulfilling every role, so that in a pinch he can perform any job needed. It's not some kind of empirical evidence that suggests that every situation is a pinch, lol.

How is it ~800?

The fully staffed armory vehicles and transports require well over 400 Marines, lol. And that's by the limited list in 3rd Ed which doesn't include the 4th, 5th, and 6th edition released vehicles not included on that list, lol.


We're talking about, if a Chapter chooses to utilize all of its vehicle assets, it is reduced to anywhere from 50-55% of its authorized infantry strength.

It's already obvious that 1,000 Marines is a silly number, but it's 40K. Space Marines do amazing things it seems. Since that's the arbitrary number assigned by GW, it's not about what "should" or "would", only an analysis of how drastically one operating model is affected versus the other.

You're going to have to explain how having dedicated drivers "exacerbates" any battlefield issues other than perhaps berthing facilities on smaller vessels of the fleet, lol. This argument defies all logic, and any military theory or application.

"I have too many guys." Said no military commander ever.

 Nevelon wrote:
I think this boils down to the 1,000 marine issue.

If you believe that each chapter has a hard limit of 1,000 marines, then the only real option is to have the reserve companies drive the tanks.

If you believe that the 1,000 marines is the number of line troops, not including all the extra staff, support, command, etc, then a chapter would be crazy to have any of their 1,000 main troops tied up when they could use extranumanaries for the job.

Given the rate of attrition, and the time it takes to train up new marines, the answer is probably somewhere in between. The full chapter list in the 3rd ed codex shows that even the battle companies are not at full strength. If the primary fighting units of the chapter are understrength, I think it's safe to assume that the armory is also undermanned. The extra divers and gunners needed to keep the chapter's vehicles up and running would then be drawn from the reserve companies.

Yeah, but you ultimately have to discuss theoretical tables of organization and equipment (TOEs), and not operating strengths. Because a chapter will fluctuate in terms of its actual Marines depending on replacement rates and operational tempos. Plus, the number of Marines can rise or fall at any given time.

You eliminate such variables by simply acknowledging their existence, but discussing what the ideal, or target, strength is in terms of numbers.