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Hi Dakka.

Im attending this tourney next month, and I am wonderring if I should bring any allies. Im stuck between Grey Knights, Space Wolves or Chaos Space Marines.

Now, I know most of you are going to jump on my back with the whole 'Necrons dont need allies', but hear my arguements for them first.

Grey Knights:
-Deep Strike denial
-decent long ranged firepower
-cheap enough S5 shooting

Chaos Space Marines:
-can be the cheapest
-a wide variety of theings I can do with them
-Heldrakes

Space Wolves:
-give the best Psychic defence in the game
-can perform a Drop Pod Melta Suicide squad for fairly cheap.
-JotWW

My Necron list is likely to look something like this for both points limits:
Stormlord
60-ish Warriors, each squad with a ResOrb Lord
Monolith
2x Doom Scythes

The List isnt fully costed yet, but I believe it to be hovering around the 1400 mark. I know its a lot of Warriors, but its a tactic that works.

Now, in the other armies cases, I do know what is what and how much they cost.

Space Wolves - total 310
Rune Preist
Master of Runes, Termie Armour
5x Grey Hunters
Meltagun, Drop Pod

Grey Knights - total 325
Malleus Inquisitor
Termie Armour, Psycannon
10 Man Strike Squad
2x Psycannon, Psybolts, Justicar Halberd

Chaos Space Marines - total 365 (I think, dont have that dex infront of me)
Sorceror
Mark of/Disk of Tzeentch, +2 MLs, Sigil of Corruption
15 Nurgle Cultists
Heldrake

any feedback on the above allies/Necron lists would be appreciated. Thanks in advance.

For the Heldrake alone, I would lean towards Chaos... but I'm interested to hear what your tactics for your 'Crons would be, first.

Thanks for the reply.

i will be posting my finalised list and the tactics I intend to use later today.

Chaos for the Heldrake, and either add in a Unit of Noise Marines for the Blastmasters, or Thousand Sons for the AP3 Bolters.

If you go Grey Knights, consider a Vindicare Assassin.

Space Wolves, only if you think Psychic powers are going to be a problem, but Spyders should be fine enough for that, if you don't pick them.

*****
As for your list, looks solid. Have you thought about dropping 1 Doomscythe for 2 Annihilation Barges?

I only have one model of a Barge, but i could jump it to a Niht Scythe + an annihilation Barge.

I have thought about taking a Vindicare, but for 145 points, I dont quite see the point.

With the recent FAQ, they put the wounds where they want. You can put those pesky power weapons, banners, characters, heavy weapons, etc. out of commission if you want. I agree that it is pricey, but since you're taking allies, it's worth a look.

The only reason you should bring allies is to fill holes that you dont feel that your army can fill.

Although Chaos are super kewl, they dont fill the "anti psyker" hole you are talking about

Although I dont feel that necrons have to worry about enemy psychic powers too much.

Vindicares pick targets do they? If it bypasses LOS, it might be interesting.

Wolfie, I just think some people who rely on powers such as Grey Knights (hypocritical I know) would have a small disadvantage...

 IHateNids wrote:
I only have one model of a Barge, but i could jump it to a Niht Scythe + an annihilation Barge.

I have thought about taking a Vindicare, but for 145 points, I dont quite see the point.

You only have one Doom Scythe as well so I don't see how that is a problem.

As for vindicares they are super cool. They are worth their points and then some.

Also how would one single psyker in your army affect them in anyway. Psychic hoods aren't the same so you can't stop them from casting there powers really.

 IHateNids wrote:
Vindicares pick targets do they? If it bypasses LOS, it might be interesting.

They always assign the wound even if a successful LoS roll is made. There is some debate about whether this disallows LoS at all, since it specifically addresses that they do get to roll. The only reason I can think of WHY they can LoS to a different model is for the save. If that save is failed then the Vindicare gets to re-assign the wound back to the original model if he wants to. A majority of players feel that the wound re-allocation happens before any armor saves which could be the RAW, but it's not completely reflected in the FAQ. Either way, the Vindicare still removes any Invul save to the first model it targets before LoS (unless they've FAQ'd it somewhere I haven't seen yet), and either way the TO decides to rule it, it's in your favor since you get to kill what you want in the end.

I won't go into it too much more here, I don't want to turn this into a debate about it and players can go look for the thread on their own. Just pointing out the short of it relevant to what you are asking and why you would want to take one.

 Akar wrote:

 IHateNids wrote:
Vindicares pick targets do they? If it bypasses LOS, it might be interesting.

They always assign the wound even if a successful LoS roll is made. There is some debate about whether this disallows LoS at all, since it specifically addresses that they do get to roll. The only reason I can think of WHY they can LoS to a different model is for the save. If that save is failed then the Vindicare gets to re-assign the wound back to the original model if he wants to. A majority of players feel that the wound re-allocation happens before any armor saves which could be the RAW, but it's not completely reflected in the FAQ. Either way, the Vindicare still removes any Invul save to the first model it targets before LoS (unless they've FAQ'd it somewhere I haven't seen yet), and either way the TO decides to rule it, it's in your favor since you get to kill what you want in the end.

I won't go into it too much more here, I don't want to turn this into a debate about it and players can go look for the thread on their own. Just pointing out the short of it relevant to what you are asking and why you would want to take one.

That seems like it would be a decent investment of not much dropped.

@keyboard, I have a second one, it just hasnt been delivered yet. Total Wargamer, before I knew of the problem...

 IHateNids wrote:

Space Wolves - total 310
Rune Preist
Master of Runes, Termie Armour
5x Grey Hunters
Meltagun, Drop Pod

Grey Knights - total 325
Malleus Inquisitor
Termie Armour, Psycannon
10 Man Strike Squad
2x Psycannon, Psybolts, Justicar Halberd
.

If you want I will bring both these setups on Saturday and you can try them out.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
and a Vindicare

Yes please, if you dont mind Hesh

For the reasons you listed I don't really see the need for you to take any of these as allies as you can just do the same with necron equivalents.

 IHateNids wrote:

Grey Knights:
-Deep Strike denial
-decent long ranged firepower
-cheap enough S5 shooting

You can take ether crystals on crypteks for deep strike defense if you want, they do have longer ranged weapons but you can take lanceteks for boosted range. Immortals are probably the best way to get S5 shooting in the game.

Chaos Space Marines:
-can be the cheapest
-a wide variety of theings I can do with them
-Heldrakes

Not sure if you need cheap models if your planning on taking that many warriors. Heldrakes are nice but not neccessary for necrons, you can get similar/better results with 5 deathmarks and 1/2 despairteks in a nightscythe.

Space Wolves:
-give the best Psychic defence in the game
-can perform a Drop Pod Melta Suicide squad for fairly cheap.
-JotWW

Spyders offer decent psychic defense as well. For 110 points(1veiltek 2 stormteks) you can make a suicide royal court squad which will do the same as the suicide melta squad, plus odds are 1 member will get back up to continue causing havok. JotWW is nice but not sure if its worth the tax you pay just to get access to it.

So pretty much necrons can perform all the actions you want from these allies without having to pay the "tax" of adding in another HQ. Don't really think you need to include allies, the cron dex is strong and can fill the voids you've stated here for your allies with the proper unit choices from within the codex.

Honestly, I would forgo allies when using Necrons. I read your arguments for using allies, but like others have already pointed out: necrons can do it themselves (and usually better/cheaper because they don't need to take a new HQ + troop choice to have access to it).

What I would recommend bringing, though, is Wraiths. Wraiths. And more Wraiths. I would also bring 1-2 Destroyer Lords with MSS and 2+ save to accompany them. It seems that the Stormlord would be more of a liability to you, as he would give cover saves to the people getting hit by the Monolith and doom scythes... I would also remove the res lords, as they are really not that cost efficient. And for Nightbringers sake, take the 60ish warriors as 10 man squads! 20 man squads are very vunrable to melee, even with res lords (as the well be back rolls happen AFTER combat resolution)

Oh didn't even realize that he was including the stormlord. Ya stormlord and allies don't mesh well at all. The stormlords lightning ability will strike your own allies as well as the enemy.

If you have Imotekh, allies are going to be at risk of lightning strikes and will have to contend with night fight.

Even without him, Wolves are Desperate allies and not worth 400+ points of non-scoring/non-denial to maybe cancel a few powers. Huge overreaction and waste of points.

Orks would go great with Necrons and even Imotekh, 2 mobs of 25-30 Shootas and a KFF is a big, cheap scoring Fearless unit with built in cover. They can absorb lightning easily and the KFF gets buffed by night fight. Plus, they're awesome.

Kevinlee11 wrote:
Honestly, I would forgo allies when using Necrons. I read your arguments for using allies, but like others have already pointed out: necrons can do it themselves (and usually better/cheaper because they don't need to take a new HQ + troop choice to have access to it).

What I would recommend bringing, though, is Wraiths. Wraiths. And more Wraiths. I would also bring 1-2 Destroyer Lords with MSS and 2+ save to accompany them. It seems that the Stormlord would be more of a liability to you, as he would give cover saves to the people getting hit by the Monolith and doom scythes... I would also remove the res lords, as they are really not that cost efficient. And for Nightbringers sake, take the 60ish warriors as 10 man squads! 20 man squads are very vunrable to melee, even with res lords (as the well be back rolls happen AFTER combat resolution)

Gonna Break this down:

Allies: I'll agree that Necrons don't need allies. The OP either knows this, isn't at a point where he's convinced they don't, or wants to try something different and has come up with some good combos that he feels fit in with his list. He's just looking for advice on which one to try first since he probably needs to buy and build the unit before the tournament. Regardless of the reason, he is asking for help on how to apply allies. Punisher has pointed out which units in the Necron Army match the reasons for taking the allies, something none of us have done till now, we just don't know if the OP was aware of these options, so even these comments were aimed to help.

Wraiths: Wraiths are great, but they're still only a 3+ save. Anyone who treats them like any other Jump Infantry MEQ unit knows how to deal with them. They're very susceptible to volume of fire, strike after most things in combat, and don't have WBB (Reanimation Protocols) anymore. They are just as much of a liability as they are benefit, and as such aren't always an auto-include.

Stormlord: There are many reasons to take the Stormlord. Night Fighting on turn one is a HUGE benefit to any Necron Player who runs a significant number of Warriors. Their short range often means that they'll need to move on the first turn. Any protection they can gain while moving can only help them. This alone will outweigh granting a bonus to the enemy with as many warriors as he's planning on bringing. It's also extremely helpful in Hammer and Anvil deployment, since they will most often need 2 turns of moving, and even the DoomScythes/Monolith aren't going to be doing much if his opponent has deployed more than 30" from the Necron Line. Maybe he just likes going first, and that's also enough of a reason for the OP to take him.

Mindshackle Scarabs/DLords: Again, another thing that is great but they are too easy for opponents to avoid right now. On Warrior heavy lists, turning D3 attacks back on the attacker will rarely make a dent other than to get a character killed (which will usually only happen on the turn you charge, and not when you get charged). Dlords with MSS are great to be able to get the charge off if you're running them with a unit that can also charge. With large blocks of Warriors, they'll see a lot of mileage in those Warrior squads for shooting which usually won't be charging after shooting w/o the presence of a Phaeron (which Imotekh is)

Warriors/ResOrbs: Dropping them to 10 man squads does mean that you'll lose less when they lose an assault, but it makes them more susceptible to shooting. WAY easier to shoot 10 Warriors down so they don't stand back up, and 20. The Orbs make this even more frustrating by returning 1/2 the casualties caused instead of 1/3. If you're taking 10 man Warrior squads, then yes the Orbs aren't that great as the unit will rarely be there to even make the check. At 14+ however they become resilient enough to force your opponent to commit a good chunk of his shooting to deal with them. I often keep a Lord with a Semp Weave and Orb in the middle, so that when the unit takes 1/2 it's casualties he can start soaking wounds, LoS anything that he doesn't get a save against. You only need 1 warrior standing to make Reanimation Protocol rolls. Since this happens before getting assaulted, the Necron Warrior now contributes his shooting to the Overwatch, and since RP doesn't return the model to where it was, he can actually increase the distance required by his opponent to even make the charge in the first place.

Vulnerable to Melee: This is the greatest Myth in a Necron army. No, Warriors aren't the best in combat, but they do not suck by any means. Even without Orbs, they reduce the casualties caused by shooting. So any assaulting troops are going to have kill more models than they would against any other army. The high LD, means you have to lose combat by 4 to even start to stress about breaking. With the larger blocks, you're going to get some casualties in, Lords with Scythes are almost always going to kill anything they hit. No, you will still probably not win out in the end, but you don't need to, you only need to stall the unit long enough to deal with them when you choose or reach the end of the game.

I played a 2.5k game vs. Blood Angels running 5x 20 man Warrior squads. He brought in a hard as nails 2+ Jump infantry full of HQ goodness. I poured over 200 shots, and still willingly assaulted him with my Phaeron and Warriors after it all. The first round of combat, I only lost by 2, and easily passed my LD check. On his turn, he was stuck where I wanted him to be, he obliterated my unit, broke and ran me down, getting the Warlord VP, only to realize that he was in the open, in front of 80 more Warriors. Needless to say that squad didn't survive a second round of shooting, giving me his Warlord VP. My opponent will never rely on 'Necrons Suck in Close Combat' to win him games again.

 Akar wrote:

Kevinlee11 wrote:
Honestly, I would forgo allies when using Necrons. I read your arguments for using allies, but like others have already pointed out: necrons can do it themselves (and usually better/cheaper because they don't need to take a new HQ + troop choice to have access to it).

What I would recommend bringing, though, is Wraiths. Wraiths. And more Wraiths. I would also bring 1-2 Destroyer Lords with MSS and 2+ save to accompany them. It seems that the Stormlord would be more of a liability to you, as he would give cover saves to the people getting hit by the Monolith and doom scythes... I would also remove the res lords, as they are really not that cost efficient. And for Nightbringers sake, take the 60ish warriors as 10 man squads! 20 man squads are very vunrable to melee, even with res lords (as the well be back rolls happen AFTER combat resolution)

Gonna Break this down:

Allies: I'll agree that Necrons don't need allies. The OP either knows this, isn't at a point where he's convinced they don't, or wants to try something different and has come up with some good combos that he feels fit in with his list. He's just looking for advice on which one to try first since he probably needs to buy and build the unit before the tournament. Regardless of the reason, he is asking for help on how to apply allies. Punisher has pointed out which units in the Necron Army match the reasons for taking the allies, something none of us have done till now, we just don't know if the OP was aware of these options, so even these comments were aimed to help.

Wraiths: Wraiths are great, but they're still only a 3+ save. Anyone who treats them like any other Jump Infantry MEQ unit knows how to deal with them. They're very susceptible to volume of fire, strike after most things in combat, and don't have WBB (Reanimation Protocols) anymore. They are just as much of a liability as they are benefit, and as such aren't always an auto-include.

Stormlord: There are many reasons to take the Stormlord. Night Fighting on turn one is a HUGE benefit to any Necron Player who runs a significant number of Warriors. Their short range often means that they'll need to move on the first turn. Any protection they can gain while moving can only help them. This alone will outweigh granting a bonus to the enemy with as many warriors as he's planning on bringing. It's also extremely helpful in Hammer and Anvil deployment, since they will most often need 2 turns of moving, and even the DoomScythes/Monolith aren't going to be doing much if his opponent has deployed more than 30" from the Necron Line. Maybe he just likes going first, and that's also enough of a reason for the OP to take him.

Mindshackle Scarabs/DLords: Again, another thing that is great but they are too easy for opponents to avoid right now. On Warrior heavy lists, turning D3 attacks back on the attacker will rarely make a dent other than to get a character killed (which will usually only happen on the turn you charge, and not when you get charged). Dlords with MSS are great to be able to get the charge off if you're running them with a unit that can also charge. With large blocks of Warriors, they'll see a lot of mileage in those Warrior squads for shooting which usually won't be charging after shooting w/o the presence of a Phaeron (which Imotekh is)

Warriors/ResOrbs: Dropping them to 10 man squads does mean that you'll lose less when they lose an assault, but it makes them more susceptible to shooting. WAY easier to shoot 10 Warriors down so they don't stand back up, and 20. The Orbs make this even more frustrating by returning 1/2 the casualties caused instead of 1/3. If you're taking 10 man Warrior squads, then yes the Orbs aren't that great as the unit will rarely be there to even make the check. At 14+ however they become resilient enough to force your opponent to commit a good chunk of his shooting to deal with them. I often keep a Lord with a Semp Weave and Orb in the middle, so that when the unit takes 1/2 it's casualties he can start soaking wounds, LoS anything that he doesn't get a save against. You only need 1 warrior standing to make Reanimation Protocol rolls. Since this happens before getting assaulted, the Necron Warrior now contributes his shooting to the Overwatch, and since RP doesn't return the model to where it was, he can actually increase the distance required by his opponent to even make the charge in the first place.

Vulnerable to Melee: This is the greatest Myth in a Necron army. No, Warriors aren't the best in combat, but they do not suck by any means. Even without Orbs, they reduce the casualties caused by shooting. So any assaulting troops are going to have kill more models than they would against any other army. The high LD, means you have to lose combat by 4 to even start to stress about breaking. With the larger blocks, you're going to get some casualties in, Lords with Scythes are almost always going to kill anything they hit. No, you will still probably not win out in the end, but you don't need to, you only need to stall the unit long enough to deal with them when you choose or reach the end of the game.

I played a 2.5k game vs. Blood Angels running 5x 20 man Warrior squads. He brought in a hard as nails 2+ Jump infantry full of HQ goodness. I poured over 200 shots, and still willingly assaulted him with my Phaeron and Warriors after it all. The first round of combat, I only lost by 2, and easily passed my LD check. On his turn, he was stuck where I wanted him to be, he obliterated my unit, broke and ran me down, getting the Warlord VP, only to realize that he was in the open, in front of 80 more Warriors. Needless to say that squad didn't survive a second round of shooting, giving me his Warlord VP. My opponent will never rely on 'Necrons Suck in Close Combat' to win him games again

This is pretty much my mindset on the matter.

EDIT: I have found Im a little lacking in poinmts, 20 below what I need free to take the Stormlord. Any ideas on what to drop for 20 points?

Also, I think I have narrowed what will be chosen as my allied detachment down to Space Wolves or Grey Knights, and as Hesh_Tank_On said, he is going to lend me the models to test them both out this saturday. I will make my decision based on those games I have using the allies.

wait, you're still going to take Imotekh?
...
in an allies game?!

Been my experience that dropping warriors out of non-Phaeron squads is the best place. So you're running 60 Warriors. Drop 1 from 2 of the squads, should cover it.

ok, so I have decided on what im going to use should I go with my allies idea.

Any feeback appreciated.

HQ
Inquisitor Corteaz
Troops
Strike Squad (10 man, 2 Psycannons, Psybolt Ammunition, Nemesis Halberd on Justicar)

345 total.

Im also debating on a 6man Henchman Warband of just Crusaders, which would bring the total to 435

Well, I wouldn't take allies. You'll pay a tax and this will not be worth it. Necrons are so strong such that they need no allies.

do me a favour, read the damn thread before you post please. No offence intended, but I have said that I know allies are not needed with Necrons, I just want to use them.

Also, they cannot do everything, case in question Psykers

 IHateNids wrote:
do me a favour, read the damn thread before you post please. No offence intended, but I have said that I know allies are not needed with Necrons, I just want to use them.

Also, they cannot do everything, case in question Psykers

But then again are Psyker's needed in a Necron army? yeah they do little special things, but there not that great, considering Necrons can overcome these effects and will most likely have something thats better...

Hopefully at the tourney you will have an opponent that will have a DS unit in every game you play just to get your primary function of this unit to full effect.