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Well I've been thinking hard about how to make a competive build with Imperial Guard without the use of flyers. So far I've come up with the idea of using 4x Medusas and Manticore. A CCS with a heavy weapon & officer of the fleet. 3x Psyker Battle Squads behind an Agies line with Quad Gun and 2x basic platoons with heavy weapons. Not sure on points just yet but the army doesn't need to have a lot of scoring units as the idea is to hit so hard that the opponent gets tabled before his Flyers Arrive. This list might even work better if the basic Troops were filled with 2x Vet squads (which go behind the Agies with the Vets) and the Heavy Slot filled by 6x Medusas and a Manticore.

I could also include Coteaz and a 10 man Strike Squad for Deep Stike protection and a bit more fire power and counter charge. Cotaez's re-roll for the seize can also come in handy but this might just be an unnessary point sink

Not sure yet on how viable this is but what does everyone think. If you can help me with some ideas I will throw a list together. The only real guideline is that everything must start on the table turn 1 so it can be shooting from the first turn. I was thinking of a 1750- 1850 point build.

Field two Hydras and masses of infantry; you absolutely can be successful without flyers.

You can still be VERY competitive without flyers, even if your local meta is flyer heavy.

Medusa's are your friend. Just decide that you are going to ignore the flyers and dominate the ground game.

You don't need fliers, but the way you're going about it isn't all that great (PBSs, for example, are a pretty tough unit to build an army around). You don't even need dedicated anti-flier. I just bring a lot of lascannons and meltas and ignore them until they start becoming a more serious threat. They're harder to hit, but you only need more or less one of them to take a flier down.

As for what you do, there are several things I've had work, or am planning on doing. Stormtrooper spam, vet spam, platoons/conscripts, russ spam are just some examples. There's plenty to do outside of that one unit in the codex. If anything you should take a break from fliers just so that you can get a better appreciation of what the rest of your codex has to offer.

 Ailaros wrote:
You don't need fliers, but the way you're going about it isn't all that great (PBSs, for example, are a pretty tough unit to build an army around). You don't even need dedicated anti-flier. I just bring a lot of lascannons and meltas and ignore them until they start becoming a more serious threat. They're harder to hit, but you only need more or less one of them to take a flier down.

As for what you do, there are several things I've had work, or am planning on doing. Stormtrooper spam, vet spam, platoons/conscripts, russ spam are just some examples. There's plenty to do outside of that one unit in the codex. If anything you should take a break from fliers just so that you can get a better appreciation of what the rest of your codex has to offer.

I actually had a read of some of your battle reports from your blog. It was an interesting read. I liked the match between you and the chaos list the best.

The Psyker Battle Squads were optional really. Just some extra pie plates to launch down range early on and weaken resolve later in the game to get rid of objective campers. They also work great vs Necrons because if they fail a moral check the guys can't get back up

To be honest I have never really run Flyers all that much until 6th ed and I'm a little unimpressed so far. I don't like the fact that I'm not laying down maxium hurt from turn 1. Not to mention that 3 TL-Lascannons aren't really that amazing. I actually seem to be taking flyers down quicker with massed Plasma Guns than anything else.

Sinji wrote:
Not to mention that 3 TL-Lascannons aren't really that amazing.

On AV12, hit on 6's, move all over the board, outflanking, they sure are.

There can be no doubt that the Vendetta is one of the best units overall in 40k atm.
The strong guard codex though makes it possible to go without it. Go very infantry heavy and take some Artillery Manticore/Medusa/Colossus with you.

One question I have though is if you think that in the upcoming flyer rulebook the vendetta will be weakened because of its dominance for guard?

I honestly don't think it will change. I think everything will come in line with the FAQ's

Guard don't need flyers to be successful in the slightest. PBSs are awful though. 3 of them is a huge points sink, I would ditch them. There are options all over the codex that the points would be better spent on.

Personally whatever list I run, I try to exploit Heavy Support as much as possible. It's where the guard really shine, and to build a powerful guard list you need to have perfect synergy between your Troops and your Heavy Support. For this reason, I've stopped taking Manticores. They're awesome, but they can't be squadronned, so you can only ever have 3 of them. And you really need more artillery than that for it to be effective, 6 Basilisks is a whole different level to 3 Manticores.

You're also ignoring Leman Russes, which are imo the best tanks in 40k. There's a load of options and varients, and they can all be made a lot more powerful with sponsons (except Ordinance russes). To pick two examples at random, a Leman Russ Punisher with Heavy Bolters and Pask can make 29 shots per turn at BS 4 and S5. Against vehicles it rises to S6 (actually +1 on the roll but amounts to the same thing) and re-roll to wound against Monstrous Creatures - people who play against 'nids/Deamons take note. Or consider the Executioner with Plasma sponsons - that's 5 plasma cannon shots each turn, on an AV 14 tank. And you can take 3 of them if you like

Can't say I've ever seen the appeal of flyers. I would probably get a couple of Valkyries simply because they look cool and 130pts for 2 large blasts and a multilas on an AV12 flyer seems pretty sweet.

@BryllCream
I think you are right pointing at Heavy Support and Platoons.
But I find the Vendetta to be the perfect fit for those.

I take 3 standard Battle tanks for example and Platoons with autocannons. The Vendetta adds in the AT punch quite nicely when you wield those. Everything except LRs will get smoked. And for those I have 2 Meltervetsquads.

Of course it gets a bit cheesy when you wield too much vendettas. So I have to appreciate the people who take only one or two or who completely skip them. As was said the guard has other valid options.

 CaptainGrey wrote:

Sinji wrote:
Not to mention that 3 TL-Lascannons aren't really that amazing.

On AV12, hit on 6's, move all over the board, outflanking, they sure are.

I saw a great game at my FLGS last time I was home, one guy brought 3 squadrons of 2x Vendettas, as well as plasma vets for troops. The other player brought a hoard of Boyz. The Vendettas killed a whole 6 boyz a turn, on average. Needless to say a 2k points Ork hoard with no vehicles didn't care, and dominated.

Can IG work without flyers?

You might as well be asking whether or not Tau like to shoot.

IG are easily one of the most powerful codexes in the game (and could easily be argued as the strongest). They have the potential for mech lists, tank spam, hordes, blobs, artillery spam, flyerspam, and probably fifteen other things I can't think of. There is almost nothing IG cannot do if you build them correctly.

maceria wrote:

 CaptainGrey wrote:

Sinji wrote:
Not to mention that 3 TL-Lascannons aren't really that amazing.

On AV12, hit on 6's, move all over the board, outflanking, they sure are.

I saw a great game at my FLGS last time I was home, one guy brought 3 squadrons of 2x Vendettas, as well as plasma vets for troops. The other player brought a hoard of Boyz. The Vendettas killed a whole 6 boyz a turn, on average. Needless to say a 2k points Ork hoard with no vehicles didn't care, and dominated.

Mobs counter Vendettas. That doesn't mean that they're not OP, counters are just a nature of the game.

True, but I always am amused when people base their entire force on a single broken/op/uber unit, and don't think about it's glaring weak points and counters.

I also bring that little anecdote to the discussion because I feel it properly illustrates that it is very easy to play this game ignoring fliers.

Guard can do anything. They easily have the most versatile codex in the game. Don't want to bring Vendettas? Ok, then how are going to kill what the Vendettas would have? Being IG, we have plenty of ways.