Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

I want to get a sisters of battle army and I was thinking giving them Black Templar as allies. Fluff wise does this make any sense? As i noticed they are desperate allies according to the allied matrix. Both armies give off a "churchy" feel and I think they would look very dramatic on the field together.

I have only started to look into sisters of battle fluff and army and i know almost nothing about the Black Templar. I am not looking for lists, or tips to make a competitive army out of them as both armies are old and out of date is far as I can tell.

So in short, can Sisters of Battle and Black Templars work together and does it make sense for them to do so?

The Allies chart doesn't make a lot of sense, as, of all the Imperial factions, BT/SoB makes the most sense as Battle, er, Siblings.

But, fluff-wise, perfectly valid. The Templars even have some banners that honor the Sororitas.

Thats I how I feel! I just wanted some confirmation before I got really attached to the idea. Thanks for the reply

 34Doombred43 wrote:

So in short, can Sisters of Battle and Black Templars work together and does it make sense for them to do so?

They are perfect allies in my opinion, they are both doing crusades, they both hates mutants and psykers and they are both zealous religious fanatics.
Do not look at allies chart, it is made for TT and it's not following fluff at all.

I say - go for it. And post pictures when you are finished, I am most interested in it

There have actually been quite a few discussions since the birth of 6th addressing why the Sisters and BT not getting along is in keeping with the fluff... Sure, they're both zealots... but they're zealots for different reasons. And if there's one thing the Sisters despise, it's people not doing things the 'right' way.

I heard of something similar. Though the only mention I can find is a worry that the Black Templars have too many members.

Also the Black Templars were some of the first Space Marines to fight the Sisters before they were recognized by the Imperium and taken into the Inquisition. Black Templars, Imperial First, Fire Hawks, and Soul Drinkers if 40k wiki is correct.

insaniak wrote:There have actually been quite a few discussions since the birth of 6th addressing why the Sisters and BT not getting along is in keeping with the fluff... Sure, they're both zealots... but they're zealots for different reasons. And if there's one thing the Sisters despise, it's people not doing things the 'right' way.

Yet that didn't keep the Black Templars from having that honour banner, or that one Marshal to team up with a Canoness during the Vinculus Crusade. Saving an important holy relic during the Third War of Armageddon should have scored the Templars a few points with the Ecclesiarchy as well.

In the end, there is nothing in GW's fluff that hints at these two organisations having any problem with each other. The hypothetical squabble is an assumption made by posters who are trying to defend the allies table - and whilst this would be fine otherwise (I too am often looking to find "excuses" to explain weird things), the allies chart is definitively unfluffy on several other accounts as well, calling the entirety of the construct into question.

Really, the Sisters getting along better with the Space Wolves than with the BT? The Space Wolves? Those "priest-murdering mutant heretics" whose homeworld they tried to invade in 886.M41? Yeah, sure. About as reasonable as Vanilla Space Marines being Battle Brothers with the Tau.

Yeah, fluff-wise we should be at the very least allies of convenience, but in practise fluff such as Helsreach implies that if IG are battle brothers, same would be true of SoB.

Having a small Sisters force as allies would be pretty cool - though I'm starting to have too many potential allies as it is - but going by the rules it just doesn't work very well. Unless I use C:SM, but I'd rather use BT+SoB for maximum coolness.

Ah well. If SoB gets cheaper plastic models at some point, I'll gotta see if I can get some and convince some of the local players to at least allow using them as allies of convenience in friendly games.

The Allies matrix is fethed up. The biggest piece of fluff in the "Battles of the Black Templars" part of the Codex is the Battle of Fire and Blood AKA the Vinculus Crusade, where High Marshal Ludoldus and his Crusade fought together with the Sororitas.

Then there's the point about the Templars being instrumental in the creation of the Sororitas in the first place; the Age of Apostasy was an ugly thing indeed.

Compare the relationship status of the BTs and SoB to the BTs and DAs.

I play that if it can be justified in fluff, then it can be played. Templars are at least allies of convenience with Sisters if not battle brothers. Dark Angels and BTs would be at best AoC, if not desperate allies.

 insaniak wrote:
There have actually been quite a few discussions since the birth of 6th addressing why the Sisters and BT not getting along is in keeping with the fluff... Sure, they're both zealots... but they're zealots for different reasons. And if there's one thing the Sisters despise, it's people not doing things the 'right' way.

Yes but it is still stupid that both sisters and BTs get better ally levels with xenos forces than with each other. It is just completely stupid that any imperial force would more comfortably ally with any kind of xenos force than another Imperial force. It is like Dark Angels and Space Wolves. I don't care how annoyed they are with each other they are *still* space marine chapters and should be happier allying with each other than allying with Tau. Just dumb. The ally table is completely cocked up. Looking into redoing it with my friends for our own games in ways that make better sense across the board.

Skriker

 insaniak wrote:
There have actually been quite a few discussions since the birth of 6th addressing why the Sisters and BT not getting along is in keeping with the fluff... Sure, they're both zealots... but they're zealots for different reasons. And if there's one thing the Sisters despise, it's people not doing things the 'right' way.

A squad of Battle Sisters encountered a lone wounded Black Templar one day. Seeing that he was suffering grievous wounds, they approached and the Sister Superior said,"Hail, brother. We are here to help, all you need to do is hold on a little longer..."
The Templar, speaking softly to conserve energy, said: "I have fought well for the Emperor and soon will go to my rest."
Sister Superior: "There is so much left to live for, however, Brother. After all, you are a Space Marine, follower of the Emperor!"
Templar:"This is true."
Sister Superior: "We too are followers of the Emperor. Do you believe that the Emperor once walked amongst men?"
Templar:"Of course, I do."
Sister Superior: "As it should be! And do you not remember that it is our duty, as his followers to purge the heretic?"
Templar:"No doubt."
Sister Superior: "We believe the same! Suffer not the witch to live?"
Templar: "Until my dying breath."
Sister Superior: "Us as well! Destroy the mutant?"
Templar: "Without doubt."
Sister Superior: "Of course! Abhor the Alien?"
Templar: "With every fiber of my being."
Sister Superior: "Truly, you are righteous!That there is only one god of mankind and that he is the Immortal Emperor?"
Templar: "The Templars have always believe that the Emperor was just a man..."
Sister Superior: "DIE HERETIC!"

Darrett wrote:
Compare the relationship status of the BTs and SoB to the BTs and DAs.

I play that if it can be justified in fluff, then it can be played. Templars are at least allies of convenience with Sisters if not battle brothers. Dark Angels and BTs would be at best AoC, if not desperate allies.

One recorded skirmish wouldn't alter relations. Dark Angels don't trust anyone anyways. My omly real gripes with the matrix are Orks and Space Wolves being able to ally with Dark Angels. There was such a rivalry between the Wolves and the Dark Angels that there used to be a rule in the old SW codex about it. And there was an entire campaign box dedicated to the war the Dark Angels fought against the Orks.

Otherwise, quit complaining about the allies matrix. I know the internet is for screaming at brick walls, but enough already!

 SoloFalcon1138 wrote:

Darrett wrote:
Compare the relationship status of the BTs and SoB to the BTs and DAs.

I play that if it can be justified in fluff, then it can be played. Templars are at least allies of convenience with Sisters if not battle brothers. Dark Angels and BTs would be at best AoC, if not desperate allies.

One recorded skirmish wouldn't alter relations. Dark Angels don't trust anyone anyways. My omly real gripes with the matrix are Orks and Space Wolves being able to ally with Dark Angels. There was such a rivalry between the Wolves and the Dark Angels that there used to be a rule in the old SW codex about it. And there was an entire campaign box dedicated to the war the Dark Angels fought against the Orks.

Otherwise, quit complaining about the allies matrix. I know the internet is for screaming at brick walls, but enough already!

Really the DA book is full of our complete hatred of all xenos, and we ain't that fond of anyone else either with the only exceptions being the PDF of the planets where we have fortresses. That is also probably because they do what we tell them.

to quote the sports to 40k thread
Dark Angels-Nobody likes us and we don't care.

pretre wrote:Templar: "The Templars have always believe that the Emperor was just a man..."
Sister Superior: "DIE HERETIC!"

But aside from the Sisterhood being well aware of the Space Marines' "unique view" on matters of faith, how would that be different from any other Chapter?

"Occasionally the Battle Sisters will have common cause with the firce Space Marines of the Adeptus Astartes. Although the relationship between these two organisations is only civil at best, the Space Marines and Battle Sisters both respect each other's prowess and skill at arms. Many times, the foes of the Imperium have been eradicated by a combined attack from these two elite forces."

It's not even that Black Templars are not regarded better than, say, the priest-murdering Space Wolves or the suspiciously elusive Dark Angels - but actually worse. Maybe I'm too entrenched in my position, but I just can't think of anything that could possibly justify this, unless we start making up "incidents" not even hinted at in existing GW fluff.

 Lynata wrote:

pretre wrote:Templar: "The Templars have always believe that the Emperor was just a man..."
Sister Superior: "DIE HERETIC!"

But aside from the Sisterhood being well aware of the Space Marines' "unique view" on matters of faith, how would that be different from any other Chapter?

It's a joke. The original is spoilered below.

 SoloFalcon1138 wrote:

Darrett wrote:
Compare the relationship status of the BTs and SoB to the BTs and DAs.

I play that if it can be justified in fluff, then it can be played. Templars are at least allies of convenience with Sisters if not battle brothers. Dark Angels and BTs would be at best AoC, if not desperate allies.

One recorded skirmish wouldn't alter relations. Dark Angels don't trust anyone anyways. My omly real gripes with the matrix are Orks and Space Wolves being able to ally with Dark Angels. There was such a rivalry between the Wolves and the Dark Angels that there used to be a rule in the old SW codex about it. And there was an entire campaign box dedicated to the war the Dark Angels fought against the Orks.

Otherwise, quit complaining about the allies matrix. I know the internet is for screaming at brick walls, but enough already!

One recorded skirmish being a destroyed ship through treachery and blatant intention to do so. That's assuming that the mentioned transmission didn't disclose enough about the nature of the situation to put doubts into the minds of the Templars about the loyalties of the DAs. At least would downgrade to allies of convenience.

pretre wrote:It's a joke. The original is spoilered below.

Well, that one got lost on me - I thought you were making an argument!
And it would've been a good one, even, were it not for ... well, I mentioned that already.

The ending of the original reminds me a little of the People's Front of Judea. Good times.

Darrett wrote:

 SoloFalcon1138 wrote:

Darrett wrote:
Compare the relationship status of the BTs and SoB to the BTs and DAs.

I play that if it can be justified in fluff, then it can be played. Templars are at least allies of convenience with Sisters if not battle brothers. Dark Angels and BTs would be at best AoC, if not desperate allies.

One recorded skirmish wouldn't alter relations. Dark Angels don't trust anyone anyways. My omly real gripes with the matrix are Orks and Space Wolves being able to ally with Dark Angels. There was such a rivalry between the Wolves and the Dark Angels that there used to be a rule in the old SW codex about it. And there was an entire campaign box dedicated to the war the Dark Angels fought against the Orks.

Otherwise, quit complaining about the allies matrix. I know the internet is for screaming at brick walls, but enough already!

One recorded skirmish being a destroyed ship through treachery and blatant intention to do so. That's assuming that the mentioned transmission didn't disclose enough about the nature of the situation to put doubts into the minds of the Templars about the loyalties of the DAs. At least would downgrade to allies of convenience.

Read the DA codex i remember at least one more complaint filed about the DA by the BT. So i think there is a bit off distrust but it would more be along the lines of we would rather not work with them more than we won't work with them.

I am really considering doing this myself, as this is my favorite army idea of all time! The hard hitting BT and all female kick ass SoB teaming up to destroy the opposition. I thought the same thing when I found out that they are desperate allies, but I heard its something to do with their view on the emperor and because of this they dislike the idea that the other thinks differently.

OH THE SHEER RAGE I FEEL READING THIS POST.
I used to be a BT player and I was under the impression they worshipped the emperor as well. The BT got into a scuffle with the SoB at the emperor's crib and the BT were having their asses handed to them so they got pissed and distrusted the sisters as does every other marine chapter/legion. Just BT more so than others!

BT are now a fluff-only army The new DA codex can do everything they can (minus righteous zeal which is a small loss) and do it with awesome new units. If you want a competitive BT army, paint them up like the BT and use the DA rules Grim resolve can substitute fluff wise to say the BT are so zealous it borders on stupidity or something close~

BT are awesome and they always will be. If I were in your shoes, I'd stick with their own rules out of principle, just like I stick with SoB in spite of their crappy minimalist WD 'dex. Style over substance, I say!

Maybe you can talk your opponent into allowing a more fitting alliance level on the chart, though. I'd think that most people would not mind, at least if you explain the situation. At least if they are using allies themselves.

Lunacara wrote: I thought the same thing when I found out that they are desperate allies, but I heard its something to do with their view on the emperor and because of this they dislike the idea that the other thinks differently.

But then they wouldn't have the Imperial Guard as Battle Brothers, given that it's full of faithful soldiers and officers as well as their Ecclesiarchal Confessors...

This whole thing about BT disliking Sisters is starting to develop into an urban myth just like "Space Marines are 8+ feet tall" or "the 1.000 limit doesn't add up". Until I see some actual fluff from GW on the subject, it's just fans (or haters, in some cases) talking. As it stands now, they only have "good" history in the material and not a single "bad" incident between them.

I thought that it was well documented that sisters of battle were often distrusting of space marines of all flavors for a key reason.

You know, the whole God emperor thing.

Sisters of battle believe he's the god of all things.

Space Marines tend to think of him as a really important man in humanity's long history, and an example for all humans to live up to, but not a god.

While the space marine view doesn't sound that crazy, for sisters, that's outright heresy. Which is why they would be naturally distrustful of space marines. Even if they are on the same side, and tend to fight for the same reasons, for two extremely devout warrior cultures like that, when their most crucial beliefs outright contradict each other, there will be problems.

Think of it like Christianity vs Jews on their view of Jesus.

Christians: Hey, this dude is totally the messiah! We should worship him!

Jews: He's a cool dude yeah, and probably at least a prophet or something, but he ain't no son of god.

Two religions that essentially worship the same god, but that tiny little difference has caused a whole lot of turmoil. It may not come up much now, but look at jew/christian relations throughout history. They were at each others throats since the day Jesus stepped foot on earth. The only thing stopping us from being that way now is that since we're "civilized", we're not as likely to shoot a guy over his beliefs, and common foes have forced us to work together. I guarantee you if modern citizens were as religious as we were in the middle ages we'd probably still be trying to kill each other.

Black Templars and Sisters have reached that point. Yes, their beliefs are different, but to be honest, there's more pressing matters going on. They can always argue after they've torched all those annoying mutants and heretics.

Yes, I realize this comment is going to cause lots of rage and assorted shenanigans. Yes, this is a serious post (i.e. no trollin)

MrMoustaffa wrote:I thought that it was well documented that sisters of battle were often distrusting of space marines of all flavors for a key reason. [...] Yes, I realize this comment is going to cause lots of rage and assorted shenanigans. Yes, this is a serious post (i.e. no trollin)

I don't see how the post should incite rage, as you do make a good point. It's just that ... if this really were the issue, the Sisters would have the same problem with any Space Marine Chapter. Yet, as per the allies chart, they actually like the Chapter they just fought a bloody war against, that consists of heavily mutated heretics, and that has murdered a bunch of Ministorum clerics in cold blood more. And that really doesn't sound right, even if we were to assume a stronger faith-based distrust/dislike towards the BT (which is not mentioned in studio fluff, to my knowledge).

The Vinculus Crusade conjures an image of a Canoness Jasmine standing side by side with Marshal Ludoldus as they duel a daemon - that's something I'd be hard pressed to pass up on if I were to consider Space Marines as allies.

Space Marines tend to think of him as a really important man in humanity's long history, and an example for all humans to live up to, but not a god.

Early-Founding Chapters, maybe. Chapters of more-recent Founding? These are guys who are coming from a planet well and truly wrapped into the Imperium and the Ecclesisarchy. It's unlikely that such Chapters have a narrative stretching back to the days of yore when their Primarch walked the stars at the side of the Emperor.

Where the SoB really come into conflict with the Space Marines is their non-humanness... or, rather, their no-longer-quite-humanness. Remember that, per fluff, the Sisterhood does a whole lot of the same things the Space Marines do, and they do it while not being genetically-modified super-humans.

daredeviltan wrote:

BT are now a fluff-only army The new DA codex can do everything they can (minus righteous zeal which is a small loss) and do it with awesome new units. If you want a competitive BT army, paint them up like the BT and use the DA rules Grim resolve can substitute fluff wise to say the BT are so zealous it borders on stupidity or something close~

Sorry to hear you suck at playing BT bro.