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So back in the day my Stepfather played Eldar and hated them. He was convinced they sucked and ended up using my Tau all the time. Fast forward to last night and Eldar were brought up again because I mentioned wanting to play them. He challenged me saying that his(mine) tau will destroy any list that I could come with. His rules are simple,
1) no forgeworld. Sadly no warp hunters or wraithseer(which is what prompted the discussion btw.)
2) i may use ANY amount of proxies. I don't have to use a single actual eldar model for this little test
3) No fortifications. As odd as this one sounds it just was easier for him since he played in 5th.

So far I see myself using Eldrad and a few squads of wraithguard and lords. Hardest part is getting to the tau before I get shot up. Vehicles will be mostly useless. He uses 5 or so crisis, 2 broodsides and hammerhead. The rest of the army is usually filler.


Tl:dr if you could make a dream force of eldar what would you use?

I would go full jetseer council with 2 seers, 10 warlocks. One seer with fortune and maybe stones&doom. The other seer getting 4 powers on telepathy from the 4 cheapest eldar powers, hoping for invisibility. Spirit stones here too. One embolden lock, one enhance, 4 destructors. This unit, if fortuned can roll his entire army. Getting to CC on turn 2, and just wipe out units.

Fill in with DAVU for troops, call it a day.

you could try footdar with 2 lords and a wall of guard but i think that vs tau you will have a small amount of trouble because the markerlights will be dropping your cover saves a ton so a jetseer might not be your best bet against them

im drawing a bit of a blank on ideas some striking scorpions might be a good idea if you want to try and get into cc but as far as trying to outshoot them you might have a bit of trouble

a wall of scatterwalkers with a prescience seer could do some good

i think a night spinner sitting behind a rock or building could be annoying for his crisis suits but im not so sure about how effectively it might be against them

you could go for some hawks with the sunblaster i think its called for the crazy amount of shots it gives to really be a pain for his firewarriors some spiders could also see some use here

I'd agree with Sterling on this one. You're in for a tough fight versus Tau if you try and slug it out from a shooting side of things with Elder.
Closing fast and winning in cc might be the best option.

I'd be tempted to run a 10 lock seer council with a fortune guide seer, a squadron warwalkers for fire support, a small squad of warp spiders with withdraw on the exarch to help deal with the armor and then fill with DAVU and rangers.

Rough list:
Jet council - 10 lock + seer with tricks ~740 pts
10 Dire Avengers with Exarch with Blade storm and Dual cats - 152 x 2
5 Rangers
6 Warpsiders - Exarch with power blades, dual spinners and withdraw - 174
3 War walkers with 2 SL per - 180

Total : 1490 depending on council.

I'm still recently back but with decent terrain you should be able to keep your DA's somewhat covered while you jet star rolls up a flank. Walkers give you volume of fire and the spiders hunt armor and give you a second unit to harass backfield with. Might work.

As far as I can figure out in my head, Footdar just won't work. With no fortifications war walker/ lords are just gonna get slagged before I can pull line of sight on the crisis. And really that's what becomes the main issue. Those crisis get pretty well tucked behind cover and much of the success I've had in previous games killing them comes from deep striking.

I had thoughts of jet bikes. I even have a few floating about the house to use up. We don't have that many sources of markerlights available minus the one squad of pathfinders. He's NEVER used them before though and doubt he will start. He is 100% sure that this is a free victory.

I'll mess around with the jet council idea. That sounds like it could mess stuff up.

Perhaps 3x harlequins.... they should be relatively safe and will dominate Tau when they get up close. Otherwise speed is key,

Heck just about anything in the Eldar book will tear the Tau up close. The problem is getting them there imo. Harles are great but I think that they may be overkill in this one particular case. In a TAC list I'd be inclined to take them but this is a one time only smash Tau face list. Just to prove that they CAN if fact win a game every now and again.

I wish I had brought my codex with me to work, it's hard to make a solid plan when you aren't looking at the points cost.

I remember that Wave serpents with one particular upgrade are fairly hard to kill(at least for eldar.) and can pack a bit of punch at the same time. Perhaps some form of Wave serpent spam? I know that sounds a bit backwards but I really don't need to get much on his side of the table. I'll also need to look at the outflanking rule as I've never used it before and may actually need it now.

Also for the record. The following is a rough list of what he will bring. It isn't exact because I don't have the codex in front of me but this is pretty close.
HQ
Shas'o w/PR and MP

Elites
x2 Crisis w/PR and MP
x2 Crisis wPR and MP
x3 Stealth Suits w/ 6 drones. (I tend to love this unit. People leave it alone but boy does it hurt.)

Troops
x10 Firewarriors w/ Devilfish
x10 Firewarriors w/Devilfish

Heavy Support
Hammerhead w/Rail gun
x2 Broadsides (Not sure which upgrades will be on these.)

There are a few extra options that can be added there for sure. It's a pretty strong list for casual games. I used it with much success back in the day although I haven't played my poor Tau in ages so I don't know what 6th might have done to them.

Oh, Thanks for the help so far. Keep it up. This little exercise has been good for my brain. A relief from the standard marine way of doing things fer sure!

Well str10 railguns are cute but waveserpents treat any weapon over str8 as str8. So spam serpents - laugh. His flashy railguns then have to hit, pen on a 5-6 and you get to jink. Open up on his broadsides with mass starcannon fire and bring the hammerhead down with brightlances and str6 glancing.

Farseer, Doom - 80

5 Fire Dragons - 80
Waveserpent, Star Cannon - 125

6 Fire Dragons - 96
Waveserpent, Star Cannon - 125

6 Fire Dragons - 96
Waveserpent, Star Cannon - 125

5 Dire Avengers - 60
Waveserpent, Brightlance - 135

5 Dire Avengers - 60
Waveserpent, Brightlance - 135

5 Dire Avengers - 60
Waveserpent, Scatter Laser, Shuriken Cannon - 125

5 Dire Avengers - 60
Waveserpent, Scatter Laser, Shuriken Cannon - 125

Actually that is EXACTLY what I had in mind. A farseer can't use powers from within a vehicle correct? So a basic farseer for my current purposes will be fine. I think something like the list above would be a blast to play. Plenty of dakka to wipe stuff out with. Even if he bags a few first/second turn it shouldn't be enough to hurt me that badly.

I'll try both out sometime this week and see which I like more and play better. I'm not sure which actually fits my playstyle better so I'll just run em both.

what rossatdi showed looks to be good especially if you can get first turn because with d-pod and jink hammerheads and devil fish are getting 3+ cover saves after moving and outside 12inches. my only issue would be if they when first and worked on taking out the serpents with the fire dragons with the broadsides and crisis suits, i would possibly recommend taking dark reapers to handle the crisis suits with their long range and ap3 goodness, and then run the fire dragons to deal with the broadsides and hammerhead and the dire avengers can use bladestorm to rip up the FW when they jump out.

and this is just coming from my playing tau and what i would do.

Gifblaur wrote:
Actually that is EXACTLY what I had in mind. A farseer can't use powers from within a vehicle correct? So a basic farseer for my current purposes will be fine. I think something like the list above would be a blast to play. Plenty of dakka to wipe stuff out with. Even if he bags a few first/second turn it shouldn't be enough to hurt me that badly.

I'll try both out sometime this week and see which I like more and play better. I'm not sure which actually fits my playstyle better so I'll just run em both.

The eldar can't use 'Farseer psychic powers' from the codex - but the BRB book powers are fine.

rossatdi wrote:
Well str10 railguns are cute but waveserpents treat any weapon over str8 as str8. So spam serpents - laugh. His flashy railguns then have to hit, pen on a 5-6 and you get to jink. Open up on his broadsides with mass starcannon fire and bring the hammerhead down with brightlances and str6 glancing.

Farseer, Doom - 80

5 Fire Dragons - 80
Waveserpent, Star Cannon - 125

6 Fire Dragons - 96
Waveserpent, Star Cannon - 125

6 Fire Dragons - 96
Waveserpent, Star Cannon - 125

5 Dire Avengers - 60
Waveserpent, Brightlance - 135

5 Dire Avengers - 60
Waveserpent, Brightlance - 135

5 Dire Avengers - 60
Waveserpent, Scatter Laser, Shuriken Cannon - 125

5 Dire Avengers - 60
Waveserpent, Scatter Laser, Shuriken Cannon - 125

Solid list. Consider putting in some Harlies just for the close combat kick in the mouth.

Hrm.... combining frugality, fun, and the ability to win some games (rough list)

HQ
Farseer on a Bike with some powers and Runes of Warding

Elites
Harlequins on foot with a shadowseer

Troops
10xGuardians with a scatter laser platform
10xGuardians with a scatter laser platform
6xGuardian Bikes with 2 Shuriken Cannons (Farseer goes here)
5xDire Avengers in a Waveserpent with a scatter laser
5xDire Avengers in a Waveserpent with a scatter laser
5xDire Avengers in a Waveserpent with a scatter laser

Heavy
3xWar Walkers with 2 Scatter Lasers each
Fire Prism with Spirit Stones
Fire Prism with Spirit Stones

I think that's around 1500 or so... Might have to drop the harlequins.
===

This list puts out a lot of S6 shooting, which can be quite effective. The Walkers outflank, then drop their hefty 24 S6 shots when they walk on. Fire Prisms hang back to deal with AV13/14 issues.

To buy it, you buy 7 bikes, a Resin Farseer to chop up for a bike, 3 Battle forces, a pair of fire prisms, and a harly box. Should come in around $700CAD

EDIT: Alternatively, you could drop the Bikes and have a 10-man guardian unit take it's place, then have the farseer join the Harlequins, give him Fortune so you can re-roll armour saves or whatever fortune does.

Dr. Serling wrote:I would go full jetseer council with 2 seers, 10 warlocks. One seer with fortune and maybe stones&doom. The other seer getting 4 powers on telepathy from the 4 cheapest eldar powers, hoping for invisibility. Spirit stones here too. One embolden lock, one enhance, 4 destructors. This unit, if fortuned can roll his entire army. Getting to CC on turn 2, and just wipe out units.

Fill in with DAVU for troops, call it a day.

Do this if you want to wipe the board with the tau without even breaking a sweat.

When I first started playing against tau with Eldar it was really frustrating. Then I learned the secret to fighting tau, and suddenly they were one of my least intimidating match ups! Granted this was in 5th and 6th has changed things but Eldar should still have the advantage.

You need to focus on speed. Eldar beat the Tau handily in close combat, and close range shooting. Tau will beat the Eldar handily in Long Range shooting. But the rub is that Eldar are fast enough to close into their preferred range before the Tau can stop them. Remember Tau win by shooting the opponents mobility out from under them, and then forcing them to wade through tons of dakka as they try to approach, its very difficult to do that against Eldar.

Here are some units that truely excell vs Tau.

Warp Spiders: Can deep strike in, have guns that threaten EVERY unit the tau have (except broadsides- which they can assault to keep from firing) And can be upgraded to have hit and run to not miss any turns of shooting. If your opponent is not careful a squad of Warp Spiders can play his entire army like a fiddle.

Jetseer Council: As has been mentioned before, the Jetseer Council will eat Tau for breakfast. Fortune on a squad of 3+ / 4++ models that can move almost 40 inches in a turn will do one of two things. Absorb all of the Taus fire power for 2-3 turns and MAYBE be dead, or cut apart his entire army in close combat one charge at a time. Either way a Jetbike Council will make the fight incredibly easy as long as you can safely get fortune up.

Wave Serpents: As has been mentioned they knock Railguns down to s8, and get a Jink save against them. Still far from invincible, Eldar tanks are generally more resilient against Tau Fire Power than other races. For added glory put squads of Fire Dragons in them. Pull up next to a tank or a squad of crisis suits and turn them to slag.

War Walkers: Dirt Cheap, 2 Heavy Weapons, and Walker make War Walkers very difficult for Tau to deal with. Small groups with Shuriken Cannons generally cost 80-120 points, they can come in from outflank to alpha strike with their heavy weapons, and they can charge most tau units to lock them in close combat indefinitely, if not shot at. Pretty solid unit in most match ups, but especially tau. Sure they are really easy to kill... BUT when tau devote 100+ points to destroy 80 points worth of models, you are still doing good.

Guardian Jetbikes: The best Eldar troop choice period, against every army, including tau. Jet Bikes are fast enough to hide out of Taus Fire Power. Good enough in close combat and fast enough to catch and stop crisis suits from shooting by charging them for a few turns and outright beating Fire Warriors, and they can quickly seize any objective in the game with their crazy movement in later turns of the game.

In short, the secret to beating tau is shoving your mobility down his throat. Jetseer Councils, Warp Spiders, Guardian Jetbikes, Dragons in Serpents, War Walkers, all of these things have ways to quickly close with the enemy, and tear him apart in close range fire fights, and close combat where eldar have a definite advantage over tau, and because of the Eldar Mobility... the tau are somewhat helpless to stop this from happening.

A list incorporating these elements would look something like this, and would prove to be a royal headache for Tau to deal with. Unfortunately, it would also be very expensive to collect and would require extensive converting.

(133) Farseer- Jetbike, Runes of Warding, Singing Spear, Fortune
(341) 7 Warlocks- Jetbikes, 1 Embolden, 1 Enhance, 2 Spears
(125) Autarch- Warp Jump Generator, Mandiblasters, Power Maul, Fusion Gun

(205) 5 Fire Dragons : Wave Serpent- tl Scatter Laser, Extra Shuriken Cannon
(205) 5 Fire Dragons : Wave Serpent- tl Scatter Laser, Extra Shuriken Cannon

(129) 3 Guardian Jetbikes + Warlock- Shuriken Cannon, Singing Spear, Embolden
(129) 3 Guardian Jetbikes + Warlock- Shuriken Cannon, Singing Spear, Embolden

(152) 5 Warp Spiders- Exarch, 2 Death Spinners, Powered Blades, Withdrawal

(40) War Walker- 2 Shuriken Cannons
(40) War Walker- 2 Shuriken Cannons

This leaves most armys at a severe disadvantage. a Large portion of the army deploys by Deep Strike and Outflank, and because of the Autarch, most everything will arrive on turn 2. Once fortune is cast on the Jetseer Council it will take nearly all of the tau shooting for multiple turns to destroy it, which will allow the rest of the Eldar army to close and dominate, and if the tau doesn't focus down on the Council... it is more than capable of killing the entire tau army on its own with a few multi charges. Damned if they do Damned if they don't. And don't forget about the Fire Dragons- their transports are somewhat resistant to Broadside fire, and they are capable of turning his best units into slag if they get close, a 12 inch move and 18 inch turbo boost mean they can pretty quickly close in as well. The Serpents are also putting out 7 s6 shots when they shoot, which threatens most of the Tau infantry. The reserves arrive on his Flanks, and near vulnerable parts of his line, quickly surrounding the Tau, and getting into his face before he even has a chance to shoot them from affar.

The battle plan works pretty well against most opponents with careful play, but it is especially deadly against the Tau. Remember, If you can make it so the bulk of the fighting is at 12 inches or less, Eldar will probably win. IF your opponent can force the bulk of the fighting at 24 inches or greater, you will probably lose. So RUSH HIM .

rossatdi wrote:
Well str10 railguns are cute but waveserpents treat any weapon over str8 as str8. So spam serpents - laugh. His flashy railguns then have to hit, pen on a 5-6 and you get to jink. Open up on his broadsides with mass starcannon fire and bring the hammerhead down with brightlances and str6 glancing.

Farseer, Doom - 80

5 Fire Dragons - 80
Waveserpent, Star Cannon - 125

6 Fire Dragons - 96
Waveserpent, Star Cannon - 125

6 Fire Dragons - 96
Waveserpent, Star Cannon - 125

5 Dire Avengers - 60
Waveserpent, Brightlance - 135

5 Dire Avengers - 60
Waveserpent, Brightlance - 135

5 Dire Avengers - 60
Waveserpent, Scatter Laser, Shuriken Cannon - 125

5 Dire Avengers - 60
Waveserpent, Scatter Laser, Shuriken Cannon - 125

i would swap doom on the seer for a cheap 20 points power iirc doom is 25 and grab prescience to boost up the serpent firing line

This is a modification of my 1850 that has won 4 tourneys so far.


Eldrad

10x harleqins 9 kisses shadowseer 246
10x harleqins 9 kisses shadowseer 246

3 guardian jetbikes cannon 76
3 guardian jetbikes cannon 76
3 guardian jetbikes cannon 76
3 guardian jetbikes cannon 76

5 warp spiders exarch 2x spinners 127
5 warp spiders exarch 2x spinners 127

3 war walkers cannons 120
3 war walkers cannons 120


Damn near unbeatable by a shooting army that isnt packing stupid numbers of flamers and vs an assault army harlequins wreck them. Killed a bloodthirster in 2 rounds of assault with doom on it. when he got the initial charge.

Trust me when i say this is either the most or nearly the most competitive non-forgeworld non-allies eldar. Seer councils are vastly overrated as is gunline eldar. Mech eldar died in mid-late 5th but has slowly limped into 6th where it got finally put down.

Imo (I have only played 2 games of 6th so far) mech eldar is not completely dead, it just needs careful planning.

Avengers and fire dragons in serpents will shred tau up close as others have said, but how about falcons?

I have a falcon with pulse laser, bright lance and cannon which with maybe a bit of farseer support such as the prescience power could potentially drop a unit of battlesuits in one shooting phase.

Add in war walkers for outflanking nastiness and some fire prisms to sit and drop pie plates on fire warriors and to tackle the hammerheads and sky rays.

You should be golden if you get up in your opponents face asap and blast him at close range.

 zephoid wrote:

10x harleqins 9 kisses shadowseer 246
10x harleqins 9 kisses shadowseer 246

This is why I looove flamer bikes and whirlwinds. Turns those smiles upside down!

I've noticed that in 6th there's a lot of stealth/shrouding tricks. Forget to bring your 'ignores cover' at your peril.

The worst one I've seen is the Guard blob behind a defence line. "Go to ground" -> 2+ cover -> "Get Back In the Fight!". Its like playing whack-a-mole with guardsmen.

Indeed, flamers do hurt harlequins, but remember they still have a 5+ inv save with reroll. That negates more than half the wounds taken, assuming an IC in the squad cannot take some of the wounds. Not only that, harlequins should be deployed in a line horizontal to your deployment to minimize the ability of enemies to flank and maximize the ability to gain cover saves from terrain and intervening models. They are also there to act as a screen to everything behind them. They ignore terrain for moving so they can just waltz through terrain and gain the benefits without slowing them down. Vs a closer range army i start my whole army on the board and can dakka you down easily. Target prioritization says your whirlwind dies first turn (unless out of sight, wherein its so inaccurate its hard to view it as a threat) and your bikes get poked by the rest of the S6 shooting. You may get one flamer volly off, hitting ~4. after you kill ~2 harlequins per biker unit. Then you get shot to death while the harequins clean up the last of the bikers. See, thats the problem with flamers vs assault units. I can spread my guys out so much that you dont have the alpha strike to kill enough to keep you from dying in return. My harlequins are my rock. If you concentrate on my rock, the S6 shooting anvils you down. If you ignore the rock, the harlequins assault and not much survives that. 4 tourney wins vs everything from flamer/screamer spam to nob bikers to guard gunlines says this unit is nearly impossible to counter. Demon flamer spam was the only thing i had problems with until i realized eldrad could just absorb those wounds (1st 6th tourney), but who doesnt have a problem with demon flamers.

With eldrad's divination i can often throw a unit of war walkers parallel with a whirlwind and fire those 18 shots into it. Only getting 1.5 pens 1.5 glances on average, but that should be enough to either kill it or stop it from firing. If it isnt, the outflanking/deepstriking S6 shooters will. Whirlwinds are glass cannons and, while decent at what they do, are way overcosted. You may kill 3-4 harlequins if you get lucky with a hit in 2 rounds of firing, but

and no, mech eldar is dead in a competitive environment. Sure you can run it in casual, but i still run ranger spam from my Altoch list from 3.5ed. While DA and FD can do damage, you are essentially putting 200-250 points into each unit you want to do damage and praying they dont assault any of it. Doesnt happen in game. Guardsmen can assault eldar with effectiveness. Sure the eldar may win.... 3+ rounds of combat later when the rest of the eldar army is reduced to empty transports that have no damage. Falcons, sure they do damage, but that setup is 160 points for 3 S8 AP2 shots. I can get a Lascannon/TL lascannon pred for cheaper that fires 3 lascannons, one TL, and is AV13 front. That is doing significantly more damage than your vehicle that requires guide to even hit enough to crack AV12.

I'm a fan of a single Harlequin unit with a Fortune Farseer. Flip-Belts give a 5++ save, so in the case of a flamer, a 5++ re-rollable save gives you slightly better odds than a 4++ save.

What is the cost for a vanilla Whirlwind? In the Dark Angels codex they cost 65 points

I usually take a TFC over a whirlwind


Automatically Appended Next Post:
I think the tourney list will be strong vs tau the harlies just comein from one side and do a clean seeep tthrough the tau lines or they fet shot to death by the bikes and walkers

C:SM its 85 points per. At 65 thats a decent price, but inability to squadron makes them only viable in smaller point games or if you arent filling HS with something necessary.

Harlequins are strong vs any gunline. Guard, SW, BA razor spam, Tau, or crons. GK and TW SW can be hard and beast spam DE is one of the few matchups that can go toe to toe with harlequins. Shooty DE present a problem but S6 shooting can often deal with them, especially when it comes from so many sources. Reaver DE also gave me problems until i read the rules and found that they need to turbo in a line to get bladevanes so i could trap them against a corner and assault. Demons, as i said, are very very hard to beat with flamers and screamers being so strong. It often turns into a slugfest that is bad for massacre/major/minor scoring that we see here. Never managed a massacre vs demons but majors and bonus obj often are often good enough.