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Well now I had the chance to flip through WoC now. You know what disappointed me the most about this?

This book shows more care for Chaos then anything in CSM, and has far more of what we wanted from Kelly for 40k's CSM

Individualized marks based on unit if it doesn't fit them right (Forsaken, Spawn, Giants)

At least two buyable items for each god! (Filth mace for Nurgle, Pendent of Slaanesh, Blasted standard for Tzeentch, Banner of Rage for Khorne, Collar of Khorne, Third eye of Tzeentch, Nurgle's Rot, Allure of Slaanesh)

Full 6 spell lores so that if one lore has one bad result (Tzeentch) it'll at least have a good chance of getting something better.

Only 12 results on the EOTG chart to make it easier on getting results that don't stack with your special rules.

Ability to avoid spawndom with a LD check (Though you are still penalized, it's not as bad)

Daemonhood allows for All Mutations, equipment, Powers, magic items, and all rewards from the EOTG. However you roll a LD test, if you fail you still get a bonus.

Lords are actually LORDS. They are all powerful beatsticks that are far above normal warriors and chosen. That would cause awe in both champions, beasts, and have earned the right to lord over them all. They could even beat powerful beasts and monsters in direct combat.

Champions that are actually powerful compared to rank and file (Could you imagine the Aspiring champion with base 3 attacks?)

Chosen that are actually bear the favor of the Dark gods, and have gained their own mutations and powers of their own? Fighting as Elite warriors and Champions in the hope they can attract more favor?

Units that show a connection with the Dark Gods, Warriors that ride Juggernauts into combat, Slaanesh hellstriders with their speed and power flying into combat.

Little touches, like DP getting specific lore paths depending on what god they worship, buyable mutations, shrines that allow for blessings to the dark gods that benefit all your troops, beasts that look like they directly came from the warp itself, some of which can be bound to your lords through powerful sorcery...

Sure some of it was already there from the previous book, but why shouldn't CSM have this sort of variety and detail? Heck even the stuff shared between books (Chart of the Gods) was done with far more care then CSM.

Haven't seen it yet, but so far it looks very good from what is being said here and on BOLS. Strong and with _real_ fluffy choices to make your army unique and fun, not "See, you can take an expensive Icon to give the amazing Fear rule to your guys! It works almost 10% of the time!"

Further evidence along with the DA book that CSM was either rushed/uninspired or purposefully done as weaker foils to DA.

And if the Tau rumors are (mostly( true, it should tumble down from mid-tier to low so fast it'll get to wave to Black Templars on the way down.

Welcome to the business politics of flavour of the month model ranges. Chaos was in the DV box set, the new models inspired people to buy more CSM. Already having got their sales, the book didn't need to be that captivating, enter DA, also in the DV box set, but likely the less popular of the two, has a better codex in order to increase their sales. If Tau are next then they will be flavour of the month for a while, just the way it is. However as Tau haven't been updated in a decade (iirc?) their codex will probably make a bigger splash (sales wise) than the DA and CSM ones.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
And by extension look far better when compared to the old codex.


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Oh yeah to make my actual point, sales wise CSM didn't need to make up as much in sales as WoC. Thanks to DV box set.

Zomg codex kayhoss spess mehreens am terribad!

Honestly though, I think the reason why C:CSM wasn't as detailed is because they wanted to keep down the price of printing. If it was a super detailed book with tons of options and entire novels worth of fluff, it would be enormous and expensive as hell.

Welcome to the business politics of flavour of the month model ranges. Chaos was in the DV box set, the new models inspired people to buy more CSM. Already having got their sales, the book didn't need to be that captivating, enter DA, also in the DV box set, but likely the less popular of the two, has a better codex in order to increase their sales. If Tau are next then they will be flavour of the month for a while, just the way it is. However as Tau haven't been updated in a decade (iirc?) their codex will probably make a bigger splash (sales wise) than the DA and CSM ones.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
And by extension look far better when compared to the old codex.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Oh yeah to make my actual point, sales wise CSM didn't need to make up as much in sales as WoC. Thanks to DV box set

Argument does not compute. First, you realize that the Chaos codex was already largely done when DV was released right? That alone makes your argument invalid. Add to that the fact that the handful of sprues in DV were a drop in the bucket compared to the mountains of new dino bots and warp talons they needed to move after the codex came out and your argument makes even less sense. Finally, if there were any validity to this at all, then by your logic the DA codex should also have been bland weak sauce because "hey, they already made their sales with DV".

If they were following your logic and had deliberately put out a week book then they would have been knowingly sacrificing sales on things like drakes, and fiends which they had already produced in large numbers and needed to move quickly to get the ROI from them, so no, I don't think that's why the Chaos book came out like it did.

Truth is, I don't know why it did. I feel like it was definately rushed and probably not play tested well enouygh or at least not play tested by people who approached that process in the right frame of mind.

I've looked through the new WoC book and I have to agree that it's pretty cool. I don't square base, but that being said, it fixes a lot of what's wrong with the 40k faction. Maybe they learned from their mistakes? IDK. All I know is, with every day that passes, I'm closer and closer to moving my Chaos to the shelf of shame. Especially now that I have DE figured out for 6th ...

Tycho wrote:
If they were following your logic and had deliberately put out a week book then they would have been knowingly sacrificing sales on things like drakes, and fiends which they had already produced in large numbers and needed to move quickly to get the ROI from them, so no, I don't think that's why the Chaos book came out like it did.

I don't think he meant they put out a weak book on purpose, I think he meant that they didn't feel obliged to put out a super cheese book. Just an average codex.

 xSPYXEx wrote:
Zomg codex kayhoss spess mehreens am terribad!

Honestly though, I think the reason why C:CSM wasn't as detailed is because they wanted to keep down the price of printing. If it was a super detailed book with tons of options and entire novels worth of fluff, it would be enormous and expensive as hell.

Your quite right on the production costs there, but I think the issue for the OP isn't necessarily volume, more quality of the work within. Half the stuff in the new C:CSM is copy paste of older dexes with a lot of the issues from older dexes still not handled properly. Further more WoC has actually taken a step forward from what I have gathered, CSM haven't. Not only that, but CSM has problems that WoC doesn't have in it even though they have the same base idea. Random boons for example are far less of a problem for WoC than CSM, yet both of these books were written by the same guy.... Phil Kelly. The final products have obviously had differing amounts of attention put into them, and it does show. Poor form Mr.Kelly, poor form.

I don't think he meant they put out a weak book on purpose, I think he meant that they didn't feel obliged to put out a super cheese book. Just an average codex.

I know, and while I could have chosen my words more perfectly the point still stands. They would not get lazy when they still had the vast bulk of new models to sell. It makes no sense. Again. look at the DA codex. If his point were valid, they would have not put a lot of effort into that either, but I think many (if not most) would agree that that is a very good, well done codex.

EDIT:

Understand that, in this case, when I say things like "weak sauce" i'm not even referring to the actual in-game power level (although even that is lacking). I'm referring to the book over-all. It's just generally lacking in so many different ways.

I think it's a conspiracy. Since Phil Kelly is one of the few authors that the internet doesn't vehemntly despise, I think he put out a subpar codex for the very popular 40k, then made an amazing and highly detailed book for the less popular Fantasy in an effort to bring more people over that felt C:CSM was lacking.

IT'S A CONSPIRACY I TELL YOU!

Edit: Phil Kelly wrote the book, but GW had to put Cruddance as the author so he would get more respect. CONSPIRACY!

I think it's a conspiracy. Since Phil Kelly is one of the few authors that the internet doesn't vehemntly despise, I think he put out a subpar codex for the very popular 40k, then made an amazing and highly detailed book for the less popular Fantasy in an effort to bring more people over that felt C:CSM was lacking.

IT'S A CONSPIRACY I TELL YOU!

Thanks. A lot. I just sprayed AMP all over my keyboard! lol

Tycho wrote:
Argument does not compute. First, you realize that the Chaos codex was already largely done when DV was released right? That alone makes your argument invalid. Add to that the fact that the handful of sprues in DV were a drop in the bucket compared to the mountains of new dino bots and warp talons they needed to move after the codex came out and your argument makes even less sense. Finally, if there were any validity to this at all, then by your logic the DA codex should also have been bland weak sauce because "hey, they already made their sales with DV".

Ok let me explain that point a bit more in depth as though done by a first time buyer, buys set for the chaos half (being the more popular of the two) expands army with other box sets before new codex. The new DA half doesn't have as much of an effect on the sales of the rest of the DA range as it does on the SM range. Those who buy the set for the SM half mostly convert them to their desired chapter (as DA aren't as popular as the other chapters... yet), making them more likely to be existing players than new. Then the next dex hits and people go DA crazy.

Tycho wrote:
If they were following your logic and had deliberately put out a week book then they would have been knowingly sacrificing sales on things like drakes, and fiends which they had already produced in large numbers and needed to move quickly to get the ROI from them, so no, I don't think that's why the Chaos book came out like it did.

New Chaos codex released, players buy all the new stuff, as simply put no one could buy these things until the dex and their sets were released anyway, so they were going to sell those regardless of how powerful or weak they were in the dex. As it turns out these units are powerful, increasing sales, the rest of the stuff doesn't need to be good to increase its sales as they are already selling. In a way it was kind of like topping up the sales already made. So the point I was making is that the DA dex increased the existing DA range sales more than the CSM dex did for the existing range of CSM. Not saying thats the reason the dex was poor, more that it didn't need to have to have as much time spent on it as part of its work was already done by the DV box set (from a business perspective).

Tycho wrote:
Truth is, I don't know why it did. I feel like it was definately rushed and probably not play tested well enouygh or at least not play tested by people who approached that process in the right frame of mind.

I've looked through the new WoC book and I have to agree that it's pretty cool. I don't square base, but that being said, it fixes a lot of what's wrong with the 40k faction. Maybe they learned from their mistakes? IDK. All I know is, with every day that passes, I'm closer and closer to moving my Chaos to the shelf of shame. Especially now that I have DE figured out for 6th ...

Your probably quite right here, rushed as it was given X months of development while the DA was given longer. And then moving Kelly onto the range they actually wanted to increase sales of WoC.

 xSPYXEx wrote:
I think it's a conspiracy. Since Phil Kelly is one of the few authors that the internet doesn't vehemntly despise, I think he put out a subpar codex for the very popular 40k, then made an amazing and highly detailed book for the less popular Fantasy in an effort to bring more people over that felt C:CSM was lacking.

IT'S A CONSPIRACY I TELL YOU!

Except the creator of the new Warriors of Chaos is none other then...!

Robin Cruddace

Which once again shows that he has surprising talent in fantasy.

Wow huge wall of text only to find xSPYXEx has basically summed it up in one sentence....

''I don't think he meant they put out a weak book on purpose, I think he meant that they didn't feel obliged to put out a super cheese book. Just an average codex.''

I thought Robin Cruddace did the fantasy book?

 JbR of the Endless Spire wrote:
Wow huge wall of text only to find xSPYXEx has basically summed it up in one sentence....

''I don't think he meant they put out a weak book on purpose, I think he meant that they didn't feel obliged to put out a super cheese book. Just an average codex.''

I don't really care about power level, one of my alternate armies is SoB afterall.

However what I mostly enjoy are options, properly done options that can fit fluff. Chaos is one of those that is hard to get right, but yet they did it very properly in fantasy while CSM in 40k has been lackluster since they decided to create 4th edition.

Heck, I actually like the EOTG table in 40k, but in fantasy even when presented with special rules, if you already possessed that rule it gave another bonus instead, instead of it being another dead turn for a "challenge" you've won. Instead of becoming a daemon prince that actually makes Abbadon worse, because for some reason Kharn suddenly became a daemon spawn without a trial.. That breaks immersion hard for me. Without supplementing any good rules to make up for it.

Wow huge wall of text only to find xSPYXEx has basically summed it up in one sentence....

''I don't think he meant they put out a weak book on purpose, I think he meant that they didn't feel obliged to put out a super cheese book. Just an average codex.''

I responded to that too. It's a few posts up. Really, it's not even an average codex.

New Chaos codex released, players buy all the new stuff, as simply put no one could buy these things until the dex and their sets were released anyway, so they were going to sell those regardless of how powerful or weak they were in the dex. As it turns out these units are powerful, increasing sales, the rest of the stuff doesn't need to be good to increase its sales as they are already selling. In a way it was kind of like topping up the sales already made. So the point I was making is that the DA dex increased the existing DA range sales more than the CSM dex did for the existing range of CSM. Not saying thats the reason the dex was poor, more that it didn't need to have to have as much time spent on it as part of its work was already done by the DV box set (from a business perspective).

Your inital point indicated that this was indeed why the codex was sub-par. It still doesn't work for me though (although I see where you're coming from on the DA side of things). I really think it's a case of designing in a vacuum with little or no proper play-testing and even less proper editing and proofing. I think it was literally just a series of small mistakes along the way that added up to a bit of a dud at the end.

I thought Robin Cruddace did the fantasy book?

So he did! lol hadn't even realized it when I was flipping through in the store. So I rephrase my earlier comment. It should now read "Maybe Cruddace learned from Kelly's mistakes!" lol

Editted my comment to acknowledge that I don't know nothing about anything.

"Phil Kelly wrote the book, but GW had to put Cruddance as the author so he would get more respect. CONSPIRACY!"

I was disapponited in both the DA and Chaos codexes from a fluff point of view - moreso with the Chaos one.
It still hasnt moved on much since 2nd ed imho.
Sure there were a few extra bits lopped in, liked more recent Marines falling to Chaos but I was really hoping for some great new fluff and moving the Universe on/progressing somewhat. Like the 13th Crusade was mentioned still - come on, thats old news to me.

Its been a trend of all the 4th-6th codexs I think with some small exceptions thrown in (Nid codex including a section on their fight with Tau - which obviusly wasnt in the 2/3 ed books, some new fluff for the GKs and obviously the Cron rewrite) but for older gamers like myself its disappointing overall.

I acknowledge with newer or younger players they have no reference point from the 2/3 editions so it all seems fresh and new but it really cant be that hard to come up with some new and interesting fluff and move things forward can it?

Interesting comparison though OP.

Sadly, I have to agree with the OP.

I had a chance to skim through it, and I was rather upset at how much more detail went into WOC, rather than the CSM book.

As simple as it was for Cruddace to make marks for Giants, Kelly could have done so for vehicles.

Honestly though, I think the reason why C:CSM wasn't as detailed is because they wanted to keep down the price of printing. If it was a super detailed book with tons of options and entire novels worth of fluff, it would be enormous and expensive as hell.

This just isn't true. There are a few people actually in the printing industry, who have discussed the cost of printing, and the price of the current hardbacks. The fact is GW is spending pretty much pennies, compared to how much they are making for each book. 10 pages would see no significant price raise for them.

Further evidence along with the DA book that CSM was either rushed/uninspired or purposefully done as weaker foils to DA.

And if the Tau rumors are (mostly( true, it should tumble down from mid-tier to low so fast it'll get to wave to Black Templars on the way down.

a Necron/CSM list just came in 2nd at Templecon. It's clearly got enough competitive value in the book to make 2nd place, even as allies, at a pretty large GT.

 Sasori wrote:


a Necron/CSM list just came in 2nd at Templecon. It's clearly got enough competitive value in the book to make 2nd place, even as allies, at a pretty large GT.

Being the source of double melta/plasma (if it is the list i imagine it is) for actual competitive books is a rather niche market, though.

I will say that I'm more concerned about fun and variation than power. I would erase baleflamers from the CSM book and never look back if it meant getting ramshackled open-topped korne rhinos, Trygon-sized daemon-princes you can build in 30 different ways and good synergy with daemon allies. Or any synergy with daemon allies, for that matter.

IMHO, conceptually Chaos has always been much better in the fantasy than in 40K. CSM are marines with horns and spikes; fantasy chaos is its own thing entirely.

 Sephyr wrote:

 Sasori wrote:


a Necron/CSM list just came in 2nd at Templecon. It's clearly got enough competitive value in the book to make 2nd place, even as allies, at a pretty large GT.

Being the source of double melta/plasma (if it is the list i imagine it is) for actual competitive books is a rather niche market, though.

I will say that I'm more concerned about fun and variation than power. I would erase baleflamers from the CSM book and never look back if it meant getting ramshackled open-topped korne rhinos, Trygon-sized daemon-princes you can build in 30 different ways and good synergy with daemon allies. Or any synergy with daemon allies, for that matter.

I prefer both myself. I've seen a lot of people bring up the power issue a lot, so I figured it would be worth pointing out some recent high placings.


EDIT: Several of the top spots had Chaos as their primary...

1Sean Nayden - Dark Eldar/Eldar allies
2Alex Fennell - Necrons + CSM
3Bill Souza- Tyranids
4Bob Sinnott- Necrons + Grey Knights
5Robert Roda- Daemons
6Simon Leen- Sisters + IG
7Ragnar Arneson- CSM + Necrons
8Bill McFadden- CSM + Daemons
9Dan Bunker-
10Nick Navantti- Daemons

That's a pretty nice spread. No Space wolves for once!

A lot less IG than i expected, too. Very interesting.

Does anyone have a rundown of the lists used so I can see what is surprisingly good and what is dead weight?

Actually I would too, I mostly expect three heldrakes in each army with other else.

EDIT: Several of the top spots had Chaos as their primary...

1Sean Nayden - Dark Eldar/Eldar allies
2Alex Fennell - Necrons + CSM
3Bill Souza- Tyranids
4Bob Sinnott- Necrons + Grey Knights
5Robert Roda- Daemons
6Simon Leen- Sisters + IG
7Ragnar Arneson- CSM + Necrons
8Bill McFadden- CSM + Daemons
9Dan Bunker-
10Nick Navantti- Daemons

That's a pretty nice spread. No Space wolves for once!

That is a pretty nice spread. I can't help but notice though that all the Chaos units were allied with top tier armies. Even if some of the Chaos armies were the primaries in those lists, I'm not sure that you can really make a definitive statement about the over-all level of the codex from this. Not without seeing the specifics of the lists anyway. I'm with Sephyr in that I'd really like to see an actual list run-down.

Tycho wrote:

EDIT: Several of the top spots had Chaos as their primary...

1Sean Nayden - Dark Eldar/Eldar allies
2Alex Fennell - Necrons + CSM
3Bill Souza- Tyranids
4Bob Sinnott- Necrons + Grey Knights
5Robert Roda- Daemons
6Simon Leen- Sisters + IG
7Ragnar Arneson- CSM + Necrons
8Bill McFadden- CSM + Daemons
9Dan Bunker-
10Nick Navantti- Daemons

That's a pretty nice spread. No Space wolves for once!

That is a pretty nice spread. I can't help but notice though that all the Chaos units were allied with top tier armies. Even if some of the Chaos armies were the primaries in those lists, I'm not sure that you can really make a definitive statement about the over-all level of the codex from this. Not without seeing the specifics of the lists anyway. I'm with Sephyr in that I'd really like to see an actual list run-down.

56of the top lists had Allies, including 3 of the top five. So, Chaos having allies is not that huge of a deal.

I only know Ragnars list, since he posted it in that thread, which is the following:

I was running:
Tzeentch Prince (which made it extra stupid to think my PMs were Troops), wings, armor, black mace, gift
10 PMs, 2x melta, power axe & melta bombs
10 cultists w/pistol & ccw
10 cultists w/pistol & ccw
10 cultists w/pistol & ccw
Heldrake
2 Oblits, MoN, Vets
2 Oblits, MoN, Vets
Overlord w/warscythe, 2+
Abyssal Staff despairtek
5 warriors in Night Scythe
9 Immortals in Night Scythe
Doom Scythe
Aegis w/Comms

56of the top lists had Allies, including 3 of the top five. So, Chaos having allies is not that huge of a deal.

I only know Ragnars list, since he posted it in that thread, which is the following:

Not saying Chaos having allies was the point - Chaos placing fairly high while using 'Crons and Demons was the red flag. I think a lot of armies would place higher when allying with those.

Thanks for posting the list. It's actually pretty interesting. I expected to see some PM's and at least one 'Drake I'm really surprised at the rest. The amount of Cultists in particular is interesting to me as is the Tzeentch Prince to lead an army with no Tzeentch units. I'll have to go through my codex with this list in front of me tonight. Looks very unique and creative!

To be fair, while I don't disagree with many of these points, Chaos in fantasy is also coming from a different place.

In Fantasy, a human soldier is not a terrible combatant, he forms a relatively solid baseline, whereas a basic Chaos Warrior is one of the closest analogues to a 40k Space Marine, and he is incredibly powerful in addition to being a relatively rare exception, few armies have troops like Chaos Warriors.

In 40k, elite heavy infantry *are* the baseline, so it makes it difficult for Chaos to stand out as much when the average guy they're fighting is a lavishly equipped genetically engineered psycho indoctrinated super soldier and not some random dude called up by a fuedal lord and handed a halberd.

 Vaktathi wrote:
To be fair, while I don't disagree with many of these points, Chaos in fantasy is also coming from a different place.

In Fantasy, a human soldier is not a terrible combatant, he forms a relatively solid baseline, whereas a basic Chaos Warrior is one of the closest analogues to a 40k Space Marine, and is a relatively rare exception, few armies have troops like Chaos Warriors.

In 40k, elite heavy infantry *are* the baseline, so it makes it difficult for Chaos to stand out as much when the average guy they're fighting is a lavishly equipped genetically engineered psycho indoctrinated super soldier and not some random dude called up by a fuedal lord and handed a halberd.

Yes I can understand this, even though by process of selection you'd think lords would be a bit better then chapter masters. Due in process that they need to be stronger (To survive), Smarter (To avoid backstabs and chose for true loyalty) Smarter (to survive), with maybe some thoughts to strategy later on. Chapter masters you'd expect less "Ass kicking equals authority" because they would be focused on planning, tactics, and overall strength, being part of a synergistic hole. Aka, the lord being a proper strength beatstick, while the chapter master builds up on the army strength.

Chosen are also poor as well, just because the only thing that stands out about them, is that they can use more gear. Despite being potential next in lines for blessings or becoming lords.

Also, when I refer to rank and file. I mean compared to WoC's rank and file of Norsche power.