A true test of "It's how you play, Not what you play"

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**CDK**

The one thing that is always said about Infinity is "it's not what you take, but how you use it". So with this thinking in mind I have a challenge for some players here.

The challenge is: have a 3rd party make a list for you and your opponent, of your respective armies and what you have, and then play a game.

I got this idea from one of the O-12 podcasts. Kip made an army for Romeo to use. Romeo of course hated it because it wasn't what he would take. But I would think of it as a challenge.

I really think this would be a good test of your abilities as a player because you will need to play learn to use what you have. You might not have the best or most efficient hacker for your force but it's what you've got to work with for the mission.

Of course the 3rd party would have to take the mission and and what you have for figures in mind. They still need to come up with something usable.

What do you think? Good idea? Bad?

**Fenrir Kitsune**

I'd go for it no problem/ My 40K lists are sometime chosen by the scenario or GM anyhow, so its not much of a leap

**Revenent Reiko**

Ooooo i see what you mean now CDK, great idea!

You would need to be careful that the 3rd party isnt biased towards one side or another, but otherwise i think that could work rather well, helps you try out new/underused units from your own army along with the associate rules/tactics and whatnot...

You could even then swap forces for a second game...

**CDK**

Right. You might even get a link team that you've never done or a doctor! I know a lot of guys never take them.

**Revenent Reiko**

Exactly! You could even end up using an army you never have before (if the 3rd party has his/her own models and is willing to allow others to use them of course) ...

I can see this being a great way of learning, especially with more advanced tactics, as well as counters for things you wouldnt necessarily have faced before...

**Commisar Wolfie**

That actually sounds like a pretty fun idea. Once I manage to get some people playing I may just have to give that a try.

**IJW**

It would definitely need a neutral third party, as much as people go on about 'it's not your list, it's you' (I phrase that I loathe, by the way), you can make make some horribly bad lists if you're trying to.

**CDK**

I know it's tempting to think a third party is not neutral when you do bad with the list too! But if you find some one that doesn't know you or your opponent they would most likely have no bias.

If anyone wants me to make one up for them I'd be happy to. I would just need to know: Mission if there is one, Pts. What you have or can proxy. I'd also take into account if you really want a link team but I would pick which ones and what's in the link.

**BlueDagger**

I always wished they would change that to "It's not about he list, it's about the tactics". "It's not your list, it's you" is so derogatory.

I'd totally be up for this and may pick someone at random to give this a try. Same here on list building if another wants me to build them one. PM me though, I stay so busy that I'm hit or miss about rechecking threads.

**CDK**

Or maybe "The Player, Not the game"

I was a little offended at first with it but now not at all. I do think this is a game were winning or loosing is much more in the hands of the player rather than game. Is it really your skill if it just depends on what you take in your list?

I think you can do the math on Infinity all day but once it's gets down to putting figures on the board, all that is out the window. Most of the time you never know what the board will be like and you can't even be sure what the opponent will bring unless you know them really well and he takes the same thing every time. Also, you may not even know what the mission is if you do one. The mission could be totally for or against your force.

**Revenent Reiko**

Ive seen 'Lists provide options. You provide victory' somewhere on the Official Forums recently, i think that works rather well....

But yeah i think its more indicative of the ability for people to learn and get better at the game than it is of people bad mouthing others because they cant win. The general feeling i get from the phrase is to practice, you cant just write an uber list, buy the models and auto win every time in this game, you have to think about every little thing to win...

**paulson games**

I really dislike the "it's not the list, it's you" phrase as it comes across as an agressive: "You suck"

In many ways it seems like all the bad chest thumping of obnoxious warmachine players who cite "page 5!" as their excuss to be a jerk. I think a slight rebrand would be good to convey the point of the game being tactics driven without trying to ego slap the other person.

**Revenent Reiko**

OK i have to ask, Page 5?

**paulson games**

Page 5 was in the rulebook for warmachine, which was basically their "play like you've got a pair" manefesto. To summerize it's to play the game agressively as playing defensively won't reward you. The problem is that some people don't realize they are talking about on the table play and personally take on agressive attitude, smack talking, and engaging in some pitfully poor sportsmanship. I've had several people in my local game degenerate into feeling like they haven't "achieved page 5" unless their opponents want to quit the game and never look back.

Every game has overly agressive or anal player types, but "page 5" seems to be a lightning rod for the worst of the worst as they seem it as offical validation that they can be the worlds biggest douche and it's ok.

Some of those players really need to go back to playing grade school T-Ball so they can relearn what sportsmanship is supposed to be. I'm all for playing competitively but with sports and games the point is for everyone to be having fun even if somebody has to lose.

**Revenent Reiko**

Wow OK, you would have thought that a company like PP would have thought ahead and not put that sort of thing in their rulebook.....? Thats terrible!

Thansk for the explanation paulson....

**paulson games**

Here's a perfect example, meant to be humorous but comes off as very in your face: http://shin14n.blogspot.com/2005/12/page-5.html

To me the page 5 stuff comes off as extremely juvenile, like the amped up "extreme junkie" screaming about how extreme and radical he is while swilling mountain dew and redbull.

The majority of the warmachine players are normal fun loving gamers, but like with every community it only takes a few miserable jerks to ruin it for everyone else.

**Revenent Reiko**

Having only read through a tiny bit of even that front page it comes across as being written by someone who needs to seriously lay off the redbull...or the steroids....or the weird combination of them both that this person has been swilling...

apologies for the OT CDK...i still think this 3rd party list idea is a goodun

**paulson games**

Forgot to mention that the posts are word for word what was in the original page 5 of each rulebook, not something created by the blogger. It was intended to be a humorous way of marketing warmachine being the game for extreme players. I think it comes off very poorly and isn't something I'd want to have as an offical company slogan. While Inifinity's "it's you" slogan is a long way from page 5, it does have a simular underlying vibe to me.

Back on topic I think the idea of trying alternate lists is always good. It might take some proxie work but the idea is great. When I played ccgs competitively we'd switch decks within our play group to see how the decks performed with somebody else at the wheel.

**CDK**

I get your guys point and agree. So I even changed the name of the thread. "It's How you Play, Not What you Play".

**BlueDagger**

K folks going to give this a go. I need a 300pt list made and I have pretty much 1 of everything released for Nomads with duplicates of some of them. No specific mission planned but try to have 1 hacker.

**IJW**

Do you want a list publicly or via PM?

**BlueDagger**

Eh slap it publicly. I'll have multiple lists on me so opponents won't know which it is till deployment.

Automatically Appended Next Post:
One that I'll be bringing: (note Lt isn't marked but could be a few)

Nomads | 10 models
________________________________________________________

Lunokhod (29|0)

Chimera (21|0)

Pupnik (1|0)

Mobile Brigada MULTI (43|0)

Mobile Brigada HMG (43|2)

Riot Grrl Spitfire (36|2)

Riot Grrl Multi (37|0)

Sin-Eater Sniper (39|1.5)

Securitate Hacker (32|0.5)

Moderator Combi (9|0)

Moderator Combi (9|0)
________________________________________________________

300/300 points | 6/6 swc
Warnings: must have exactly one Lt
open with Aleph Toolbox

: http://goo.gl/vyp9N

**CDK**

Any mission? That can make a big difference. Also, Generic Nomads only?

**BlueDagger**

Generic or Sect I'm fine with either. For linked teams I have 6-7 moderators (1 spitfire, 1 msr, 1 marker, 3-4 combi), 4 alquaciles ( 1msr), 3 brigada (1 hmg), 5 riot grrls (1spitfire). Not enough custodiers or rev to link.

If we do missions it'll be taos or yams. Playing tomorrow morning so get those submissions rollin

Btw my opponents will likely be Yu-Jing (thunderpup) or CA/Aleph (solodice)

**Von Skyfury**

NOMADS
──────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────

GROUP 1 (Regs: 9/Irrs: 0):

SZALAMANDRA Hyper-rapid Magnetic Cannon, Heavy Flamethrower / (90 | 2)
MOV:6-4 CC:17 BS:14 PH:17 WIP:13 ARM:8 BTS:-9 STR:3
Regular, Not Impetuous, Cube
ECM

SZALAMANDRA PILOT Pistol, Knife
MOV:4-4 CC:13 BS:11 PH:10 WIP:13 ARM:0 BTS:0 STR:1
Regular, Not Impetuous, Cube
Pilot

2x SECURITATE Combi Rifle + Light Shotgun / Pistol, Knife (23)
MOV:4-4 CC:13 BS:12 PH:10 WIP:14 ARM:1 BTS:0 W:1
Regular, Not Impetuous, Cube
Repeater, Sixth Sense L2

SECURITATE HMG / Pistol, Knife (28 | 1)
MOV:4-4 CC:13 BS:12 PH:10 WIP:14 ARM:1 BTS:0 W:1
Regular, Not Impetuous, Cube
Repeater, Sixth Sense L2

INTERVENTOR Hacker Combi Rifle / Pistol, Knife (26 | 0.5)
MOV:4-4 CC:13 BS:11 PH:10 WIP:15 ARM:1 BTS:-3 W:1
Regular, Not Impetuous, Cube
Hacking Device Plus

REAKTION ZOND HMG, Antipersonnel Mines / Electric Pulse (28 | 1)
MOV:6-4 CC:8 BS:11 PH:8 WIP:13 ARM:0 BTS:-3 STR:1
Regular, Not Impetuous, G: Remote Presence
Total Reaction, Repeater, Climbing Plus, 360º Visor

SECURITATE Lieutenant Combi Rifle + Light Shotgun / Pistol, Knife (23)
MOV:4-4 CC:13 BS:12 PH:10 WIP:14 ARM:1 BTS:0 W:1
Regular, Not Impetuous, Cube
Repeater, Sixth Sense L2, Lieutenant

SPEKTR E/Mauler, Combi Rifle+ Light Shotgun / Pistol, Knife (39 | 0.5)
MOV:4-4 CC:13 BS:12 PH:12 WIP:14 ARM:1 BTS:0 W:1
Regular, Not Impetuous, Cube
CH: TO Camouflage, Infiltration, Deployable Repeater

ALGUACIL HMG / Pistol, Knife (19 | 1)
MOV:4-4 CC:13 BS:11 PH:10 WIP:13 ARM:1 BTS:0 W:1
Regular, Not Impetuous, No Cube

299 Points | SWC: 6

ARMY CODE: Army Infinity v.3.0.

**IJW**

I'll do a 'proper' one later based on your available models, but what about this one?

Nomads - Corregidor Jurisdictional Command | 7 models
________________________________________________________

Iguana (73|2)

Gecko Mk12 (55|1.5)

Gecko Combi (54|1)

Wildcat Lieutenant (19|0)

McMurrough (33|0)

Transductor Zond Repeater (8|0)
________________________________________________________

297/300 points | 6/6 swc
open with Aleph Toolbox

: http://goo.gl/qrFyo

**Casey's Law**

IJW wrote:'it's not your list, it's you' (I phrase that I loathe, by the way)

BlueDagger wrote:I always wished they would change that to "It's not about he list, it's about the tactics". "It's not your list, it's you" is so derogatory.

CDK wrote:Or maybe "The Player, Not the game"

Strong feelings but that's the power that language has. If I'm correct in thinking this was originally Spanish then translation would be partially to blame I suppose but it's no excuse. I don't like the phrase much myself but it serves a valuable purpose. I like that version CDK, it's less combative and more inspiring. I'm going to make a point about bring this up again very soon on a new thread...

Also, Blue, I won't be playing any games for a while and I'd love it if you and anyone else would like to give my list a whirl so I could get some feedback on tactics. If you're up for it that'd be sweet.

It's two lists but they are pretty much the same, although one is Bakunin.

Spoiler:

**bantha_beast**

If I'm correct in thinking this was originally Spanish then translation would be partially to blame I suppose but it's no excuse.

Just to avoid any confusion the phrase has nothing to do with CB. So its not some sort of official 'page 5' type slogan. Its something that a couple of people on the official forum came up with for a lark and has somehow struck. I'm firmly in the 'i think its stupid' camp.

CDK are the lists still supposed to be 'good' lists or 'challenging' lists? Or is it more an excuse to play with different lists because someone else has picked it?

**Casey's Law**

I was referring to the old Spanish forums and therefore I assume Spanish guys who came up with it. But your point is an important one, other people might not know.

It's silly to call it stupid though, I don't like it but I can view it objectively and see it has an important point to make and has a use. Calling it stupid is combative which is, not unironically, what is wrong with it in the first place.

On topic: It'd be cool to also see people trade lists to get fresh eyes on them. Maybe we could have a thread for that purpose?

**BlueDagger**

Sorry didn't see the submissions before I headed out this morning I only got one match in with a 3v3 with a slightly tweaked list of what I posted. Poor nomads got pounded though. Morat pushed my right flank and a hsien linked team raped my front/left.