Police killers trial in preston court

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**master of ordinance**

Now OT i am displeased, this has been going on for 3 days and no coverage? Shame on you

Dale Cregan: PCs murder trial starts
Police were on patrol outside Preston Crown Court
Continue reading the main story
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Not guilty plea over PC murders
A man accused of murdering two police officers in Greater Manchester has appeared in court at the start of his trial.

Dale Cregan, 29, was at Preston Crown Court having denied the murders of PCs Nicola Hughes, 23, and Fiona Bone, 32, in a gun and grenade attack in Hattersley last September.

He also denies murdering father and son David and Mark Short.

There are nine co-accused whose charges include murder and attempted murder.

Around 20 barristers, representing the defendants, sat in two rows as preliminary legal issues were discussed ahead of a jury being selected for the trial.

PCs Hughes and Bone were killed as they responded to a report of a burglary on the morning of 18 September.

Four months earlier, former amateur boxer Mark Short was gunned down at the Cotton Tree pub in Droylsden, Manchester.

His 46-year-old father David was found dead on 10 August following a shooting and grenade attack at a house in nearby Clayton.

Explosion charge

Mr Cregan, Leon Atkinson, 35, from Ashton-under-Lyne, Luke Livesey, 27, from Hattersley, Damian Gorman, 38, from Glossop, Ryan Hadfield, 28, from Droylsden, and Matthew James, 33, from Clayton, are all accused of the murder of Mark Short and the attempted murders of three others in the pub at the time.

Accused of the murder of David Short are Mr Cregan, Francis Dixon, 37, from Stalybridge, Anthony Wilkinson, 38, from Manchester, and Jermaine Ward, 24.

All four are also jointly accused of the attempted murder of Sharon Hark on the same day, and a single charge of causing an explosion.

Mr Wilkinson is also charged with possession of a firearm with intent to endanger life and Mohammed Ali, 32, from Chadderton, is accused of assisting an offender.

Only Mr Cregan is charged with the murder of the two police officers.

The trial is expected to last 12 weeks.

Dale Cregan pleads not guilty to Manchester PC murders
PCs Fiona Bone and Nicola Hughes were killed on 18 September A man has denied murdering two Greater Manchester police constables.

Dale Cregan pleaded not guilty to the murders of PCs Nicola Hughes and Fiona Bone, killed in a gun and grenade attack in Hattersley on 18 September.

Via a video link at Liverpool Crown Court, the 29-year-old also denied the murders of Mark Short, 23, on 25 May and David Short, 46, on 10 August.

He is charged with four counts of murder and attempted murder and causing an explosion with grenade.

Nine other men also appeared from Manchester and Wakefield prison via video link.

Luke Livesey, Damian Gorman, Anthony Wilkinson and Jermaine Ward pleaded not guilty to charges of murder and attempted murder in relation to David and Mark Short.

Five others defendants were not asked to enter a plea.

A trial date has been set for 4 February 2013 at Preston Crown Court.

Full story here http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-manchester-21321496

and here http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-manchester-20205937

I only know about this because i happen to live in preston and travel past the court to get to college each day. I happened to notice the masses of police officers, armed police and sniper teams on the nearby roofs and investigated further and after seeing how its somhow managed to slip between our news hounds net then i thought ide best poist somthing.

**Manchu**

Is this some kind of mafia thing? Why the snipers roosting around the court house?

**Kilkrazy**

It looks like an organised crime thing. They have killed three people including two policewomen, so perhaps the trial is felt to need extra protection.

**purplefood**

IIRC He had a rather extensive network of helpers...

**Manchu**

Right, I notice that 10 defendants are mentioned in the article. Is organized crime a problem in the UK?

EDIT: Clearly, it is a problem wherever it exists. I mean to ask, is organized crime extremely rare in the UK or otherwise?

**daedalus**

I am surprised that such widespread access to guns (and even grenades!) is possible in the UK.

It paints a different picture of the country than I had envisioned previously.

**Mr. Burning**

daedalus wrote:
I am surprised that such widespread access to guns (and even grenades!) is possible in the UK.

It paints a different picture of the country than I had envisioned previously.

People with the means and determination to acquire firearms can always find those with the means and the will to supply.

If I really wanted to I'm fairly certain I can go out tonight and find something or someone with knowledge.

Or I'll book a visit to some chums in prison and get the info I need.

**daedalus**

Apparently. To hear people talk though, you'd think they simply did not exist there.

**Howard A Treesong**

daedalus wrote:
I am surprised that such widespread access to guns (and even grenades!) is possible in the UK.

Define 'widespread', I don't think you've taken a fair impression. Guns are very uncommon here, most people will almost never see one in person that isn't being legally used (police, army, sporting uses, etc). Only hardened criminals and those involved in gangs are likely to come across guns and even then they aren't common. Most crimes do not involve guns, but we also tend to classify 'gun crime' as involving things that look like guns rather than actual firearms. If you rob a shop with a toy gun, that's armed robbery.

You're very unlikely to be threatened with a gun at any time, most guns are used by criminals on each other. Or there's the odd occasion when someone uses a legally owned gun to shoot their family or something, but you're at very low risk of ever being threaten with being shot.

**Compel**

I also wonder how much it helps with the decision process of.

"I see a gun, it is not being held by someone in a uniform, therefore he is a bad guy. Therefore I should (call police)/(call backup)"

**daedalus**

Howard A Treesong wrote:

Define 'widespread', I don't think you've taken a fair impression.

Well, in this case, 8 people involved in business with guns, murdering several people in the process. Granted, this is one of the first and only times I've heard of such things happening in the UK, but then again, it's only just now become trendy for shootings to make mainstream news. I suppose, as others have already stated, this could just be an isolated incident that occurred because of determined individuals.

**Steve steveson**

daedalus wrote:
I am surprised that such widespread access to guns (and even grenades!) is possible in the UK.

It paints a different picture of the country than I had envisioned previously.

Guns are available if you know the right people, but 90% of the population will never have seen a gun in real life, legal or otherwise. Of course there are illegal guns, but not that many. The biggest problem for the police at the moment, with guns, is underworld armorers. Illegal guns are that unusual that they are actually rented out by organised criminals. It is not widespread at all, but that's not to say it doesn't exist.

Almost any shooting in the UK will make the news.

As a bit of information backing this up, the UK police do not carry guns they see it as that unlikely. Whenever an armed police officer has to fire a shot, no matter what the outcome, it is investigated by the IPCC (the national police over site body) and I believe the officer is taken off front line duty. If someone is shot they are defiantly taken off duty.

**Kilkrazy**

daedalus wrote:
Howard A Treesong wrote:

Define 'widespread', I don't think you've taken a fair impression.

Well, in this case, 8 people involved in business with guns, murdering several people in the process. Granted, this is one of the first and only times I've heard of such things happening in the UK, but then again, it's only just now become trendy for shootings to make mainstream news. I suppose, as others have already stated, this could just be an isolated incident that occurred because of determined individuals.

Gun crime is rare in the UK. That is why a case like this makes major news.

There are something like 2 million firearms registration certificates in force, sometimes with more than one weapon on them. These cover legally held shotguns and rifles.

**Manchu**

I'd say a ring of cop killing gangsters would be major news in the US as well.

**master of ordinance**

Manchu wrote:
Is this some kind of mafia thing? Why the snipers roosting around the court house?

Not sure but my mum was around when the bulger trials where being done and apparently they had riot police, armed police, regular police. And still only just managed to stop the pissed public ripping the sick fethers apart.

In this case its possibly as a deterent against this and the killerers fellows trying to spring/silence them.

**Kilkrazy**

Manchu wrote:
I'd say a ring of cop killing gangsters would be major news in the US as well.

I am sure it would be.

I just mean that in the mainland UK there have been only about 30 police shot dead in the past 50 years. The deaths of two unarmed policewomen in a gun and grenade ambush was a very high profile event indeed.

**Palindrome**

The weapons used were supposed to have been smuggled in from eastern europe via this gangs criminal contacts.

Certainly illegal weapons are very rare in the UK, it is however impossible to completely remove anything from society, just look at how well the 'war on drugs' has been doing.

**Albatross**

Yeah, they're rare, like. I only know one person who's had a gun pulled on them and they weren't 100% that it was real. Most people don't know ANYONE who's been a victim of gun crime.

**master of ordinance**

Ill check for updates soon.

[EDIT]

Updated