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After much debate with my "inner circle" of fellow gamers, we've come to an agreement on how to cope with the many changes in 6th Ed.

While there are far to many to name here at once, The primary topic for us was flyers. (Specifically vehicles and dedicated flying units, not Flying Monstrous Creatures).

When building a list, say for example 1000 points; you are free to place whatever units you feel will best suit your ultimate plans on the battlefield, and fall within the "vision" you have for your army. I would like people to pay special attention to that last bit since the "vision" in your head is pretty focal to the game. One of the chief reasons I chose to play the armies that I play is because they had some unique appeal.

Combination of Striking Scorpions and War Walkers in an Eldar army of Dire Avengers, and Autarch, the Avatar, and a host of Guardians on Jetback makes for a sort of Shock and Awe style of war similar to the Deathwing/Ravenwing combo of the DA on a smaller scale.

I love the imagery of a warhost of filthy and encrusted Space Marines slowly and implacably marching across the battlefield shrugging off bullets and letting loose a hail of their own blistering fire.

And in a 1000 point list, I can put together a list that highlights the parts of my army I want highlighted. As Space Marines (like it or not) the focus are your army is infantry, since you have some of the best standard troops in the game. As Eldar it's about synergy and finding the right combination of units to work together.

But what we quickly noticed after 6th Ed was that Flyers completed changed the dynamic of the game. The average flyer is 150-200 points. So in a 1000 point game you have really only 800 points, and a 200 point gamble if both you and your opponent have a flyer. On turn 2 (or later) when they arrive, the flyers will invariably attack one another and whoever is the victor in that fight is almost always the victor of the game... so to increase your odds of survival, you throw another 100 points into and Aegis with QG. Now you're playing a 700 point game with a "gamble" of 300 points just so that your army doesn't get toasted.

Our solution to this was a house rule (that I would LOVE to see GW adopt in an Errata). No flyers or emplacements in armies of under 2000 points. If your total army cost is 2000 points or more, any number of your units may be flyers and you may purchase any of the emplacements.

In this way, your opponent can still "play the game they want to play" and have enough room left over with points to effective combat an air presence without detracting from his ground troops.

What do you all think?

2000 is a lot of points, especially when you steal the Storm Raven away from armies. My Storm Raven is the center of my Assassin themed army, it delivers my Death Cult Assassins into combat. IF this way to be implemented, I would make it a maximum of 1500 that denies it.

 Lord Magnus wrote:
2000 is a lot of points, especially when you steal the Storm Raven away from armies. My Storm Raven is the center of my Assassin themed army, it delivers my Death Cult Assassins into combat. IF this way to be implemented, I would make it a maximum of 1500 that denies it.

2000 points is not really a lot of points. Personally, I believe that if it is possible to center your entire army around one single unit.... Thats kinda crap anyway. What happens if someone gets a lucky shot off and kills the center piece of your whole army in turn 1. (or in the case of flyers, turn 2). Dont get me wrong, I dont want to get in to a long drawn out discussion of 'competitive' lists vs whatever, I'm sure there are plenty of lists that will simply beat almost anything that can be based around one or two models if those models are not countered. Point here is that in a game where you know each other, play against each other often, and are simply playing to have fun... If one person decides that he is going to bring a flyer or two, you have automatically lost if you do not have anti flyer weapons. It isnt so bad in a 2k point game, but in say a 1kpoint game... you are screwed.

This also leads to an immediate requirement for everyone in a group of friends to spend 100$ or more on models they might not have wanted, just so they dont loose every single game. Maybe that is somethng that appeals to a lot of people, but not me. Flyers are cool, they are fun, but having to base an army around them sucks.

Personnaly, in my inner circle of friends, we don't use flyers in 1000- pts games.

I play CSM and I can easly fill in 3 heldrakes with an aegis/commRelay in a 1000 pts game and we find it to be too much imba.

Flyers just get wrecked anyway when my friends try to pull it on me, since we have a special rule that basically allows me to turn my basilisks into AA guns.
Turn 1- switch 1/2 of arty to AA. Art may not move or fire.
Turn 2- blast enemy flyer out of the sky.
Turn 3- switch all changed arty back to arty.
Turn 4- proceed as per usual. The rule;
Flak Shot- Basilisks may switch from using snap-fire to using BS when attacking flyers after spending one turn switching. While using Flak Shot they may not attack ground troops. They must spend another turn switching back to usual rounds, at which point snap-fire is reenabled and they may fire upon ground troops.
Basically, I see no reason for anyone to outlaw flyers in >2000 point games. If you don't like it, make a custom rule for your circle, solve the problem.

I have a friend playing IG and I would not let him switch his weapons like lol...

IG already have very good AA with hydra, and they are so OP on sieges with barrages, why would you make it even more OP?

I bet you win everytime with such OP houserules in your favor unless your friend makes his own OP Houserules. Seriously dude.... for the blessing of the Emperor! remove that houserule.... IG's vehicles are already imba, invest some of your points in hydra's if you fear so much against airs, at least if you keep such an OP houserule, don't give to a S8 AP3 Barrage tank please.

Citabogue wrote:
I have a friend playing IG and I would not let him switch his weapons like lol...

IG already have very good AA with hydra, and they are so OP on sieges with barrages, why would you make it even more OP?

I bet you win everytime with such OP houserules in your favor unless your friend makes his own OP Houserules. Seriously dude.... for the blessing of the Emperor! remove that houserule.... IG's vehicles are already imba, invest some of your points in hydra's if you fear so much against airs, at least if you keep such an OP houserule, don't give to a S8 AP3 Barrage tank please.

Basilisks are S9. And please, calm down. Personal attacks don't solve anything.

All I got from the original post is that one player doesn't like flyers because they don't fit his theme in small armies, therefore, everyone should have to play by his rules even if his opponent has a flyer-centric theme at 1000pts.

Sorry, but its just not a good house rule. Remember that just because you want the game to be played one way, does not mean everyone else wants it or has to play it your way. Flyers will become increasingly less of a problem the more codices for 6th are released.

Oh, and get a nightwing interceptor for your Eldar; its fluffy and quite effective in its role. Rules are in Imperial Armour Aeronautica.

Oh, and Houndmaster's 'houserule' is so incredibly broken. Words fail me.

I don't think that fliers are going to become less of a problem.

CSM brought in the Helldrake, which isn't great against fliers but really hurts armies that don't dedicate anti-flyer firepower.

DA don't have a way to deal with flyers reliably better than a standard army.

Deamons have the Soulgrinder and of course FMC.

C:SM can now field 6 flyers and BT get Storm Ravens, because we didn't have enough A12 flyers as it was.

The problem is there shouldn't be a flyer centric theme at 1k, because I can only field 1 AA gun without going to FW. If I only field the single AA gun then I'm pretty sure I know what a flyer focuse army is going to focus on turn1. I'm just not keen on getting another expensive book to add on to the stack just to play the basic game. $75 for the basic rulebook, $50 for the army books now, add in allies and Forgeworld and you're spendind insane amounts on dealing with what's in the standard codex.

I disagree that DA don't have a way to deal with Flyers...

Multiple units can take flakk missiles

The Neph Fighter can have a number of S6 and S5 shots. Sure, it will struggle a little against AV12, but against AV10 and AV11? And if it takes the lascannon instead of the avenger mega bolter.

DA players are gnashing their teeth because they didn't get the best flyer in the game, but that doesn't mean that the army can't field anti-air.

As for being on topic, the IG and flyer house rules are both horrible and should never be considered for the game itself.

Even beyond flyers, it is an issue that some army builds facing other builds will result in a likely autowin. Flyers added another way for this to occur.

I played a game where I steamrolled my opponent, Because I made my list to be absurdly anti-infantry, I lucked out and my foe put most everything in infantry. I won easily, and didn't have much fun.

So, I see the problem (more broadly than just flyer-based) as it being harder to make a 'take all comers' balanced list without accidentally having one's list able to flatten another's, accidental list tailoring if you will. The solution I'm going with is to discuss my list with my opponent from now on before playing, no more hidden lists, I'd rather we have a good look at each other's army lists and ask ourselves 'will this be a fun fight, is it hard to tell who'd win?'

It's a bit of a paradigm shift, but a fairly gentlemanly one at least., eh?

The only problem with the Nephilim is the totally worthless missiles and the TL heavy bolter for the cost. Give it S7 missiles and they might be passable anti-air. Give it a TL assault cannon instead of the heavy bolter and it might be fine...

The problem is a Storm Talon is cheaper and better than a Nephilim unless you consider the S6 missiles to be worth 40 to 50 points... LOL

To the point, I do agree that flyers - in an open build are disgusting. The general rule that would stop the flyer-mania is allow no more than 10% of points to be spent on a flyer unless it is a dedicated transport. That means no flyers in less than a 1500 point list and no idiocy of 3 hell drakes or doom scythes in 1800 point lists.

As 2000 points also allows for 2 FOC, allow 20% of points to be spent on flyers.

Of course this is totally anti-GW as then everyone is not going to rush out and buy 9 vendettas.

GL convincing GW to make less money

I'm pretty sure the heavy emphasis on flyers in this edition along with all the new models, (not to mention the new $30 errata specifically for flyers) was entirely made to sell more models (duh). Making a rule that makes those shiny new money makers less appealing isn't going to end up anything more than a house rule.

As for making it a houserule, I disagree with it personally, but if you and your gaming group all agree, then why not?

En Excelsis wrote:
In this way, your opponent can still "play the game they want to play" and have enough room left over with points to effective combat an air presence without detracting from his ground troops.

And what if I love flyers and "playing the game the way I want to play" is taking several of them?

What do you all think?

I think it's a great rule. Let's apply it to everything else as well.

If you take tanks your opponent has to take melta guns, and whoever wins the tank vs. melta fight probably wins the game. So now your 1000 point game is down to 7-800 points with a separate 2-300 point tank/anti-tank duel. Therefore all vehicles should be banned in games under 2000 points so that your opponent can still "play the game they want to play".

If you take MCs your opponent has to take plasma guns, and whoever wins the MC vs. plasma fight probably wins the game. So now your 1000 point game is down to 7-800 points with a separate 2-300 point MC/anti-MC duel. Therefore all MCs should be banned in games under 2000 points so that your opponent can still "play the game they want to play".

If you take psykers your opponent has to take psychic defense, and whoever wins the psyker vs. ROW Farseer fight probably wins the game. So now your 1000 point game is down to 7-800 points with a separate 2-300 point psyker/anti-psyker duel. Therefore all psykers should be banned in games under 2000 points so that your opponent can still "play the game they want to play".

If you take objective holders your opponent has to take anti-infantry guns, and whoever wins the infantry vs. infantry fight probably wins the game. So now your 1000 point game is down to 7-800 points with a separate 2-300 point infantry/anti-infantry duel. Therefore all scoring units should be banned in games under 2000 points so that your opponent can still "play the game they want to play".

Conclusion: just to be safe, all units should be banned at any game size.