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Having a discussion on another forum and someone is saying that they consider the dormant rule of ymargls allows them to place just part of their base in area terrain, the way I read the rule, mainly due to its requirements of the selected area terrain i'd say no that isnt acceptable, I have only faced ymargls a few times and each time they have been deployed totally in the area terrain, whats the general view of this?

It says they must be completely in the terrain.

 Traceoftoxin wrote:
It says they must be completely in the terrain.

No, it does not.

"they must be deployed such that all models are within the selected terrain."

Part of the base in the terrain means that the model is within terrain. Perfectly valid deployment.

What about where it says 'if any models cannot be placed inside'....

Models touching the terrain are not inside?

Yes they are.
How do you get a cover save in area terrain? You stand inside it.

Are you saying that a model only half in area terrain does not get a cover save?

rigeld2 wrote:
Yes they are.
How do you get a cover save in area terrain? You stand inside it.

Are you saying that a model only half in area terrain does not get a cover save?

Area terrain rule states models in terrain, not inside terrain, standing in the door way of a house, are you in the house or outside?.

You're both.
By having the base partially in terrain, you've satisfied the requirement to be in terrain. There's no requirement to be completely in terrain so the model can be deployed there.

I'd use pg 4 "if any part of a model's base is within 6" of the base of an enemy model, the two models are said to be within 6" of each other."

from that we could extrapolate and go with: if any part of a model is withing area terrain, the model is within area terrain.

Just don't be inconsistent about it really, if you would expect that model to make a difficult terrain test to move, then it is in area terrain and gets a cover save.

Sure - the turn they appear they move out with a difficult terrain roll.

They can move (mtc)and assault (reroll for fleet) the turn they arrive. Do you really need an extra half inch at the cost of upsetting the person you're playing with?

 hyv3mynd wrote:
They can move (mtc)and assault (reroll for fleet) the turn they arrive. Do you really need an extra half inch at the cost of upsetting the person you're playing with?

If it makes the difference between being able to deploy them and not, sure.
And I don't see why people would get upset about it - it's no different than a model claiming a cover save by having 1/16" of the base in area terrain.

rigeld2 wrote:

 hyv3mynd wrote:
They can move (mtc)and assault (reroll for fleet) the turn they arrive. Do you really need an extra half inch at the cost of upsetting the person you're playing with?

If it makes the difference between being able to deploy them and not, sure.
And I don't see why people would get upset about it - it's no different than a model claiming a cover save by having 1/16" of the base in area terrain.

True.

Tyranids being my first and largest army, HIWPI is they awaken from dormant fully within the area terrain but I can see how the language could allow for part of the base to touch.

The thing is, the rule only says that they have to be within the terrain, not they have to be wholly within the terrain (such as with disembarking).

It also has a caveat that "If any models can not be placed inside this terrain..." P.61 Codex Tyranids

And if the models are getting a cover save they're inside the area terrain.

Unless you're asserting there's a difference between "in" and "inside"?

 hyv3mynd wrote:
They can move (mtc)and assault (reroll for fleet) the turn they arrive. Do you really need an extra half inch at the cost of upsetting the person you're playing with?

This is a good point. If you place them partially in terrain some people will say that's a TFG move. As pointed on they don't need it to assault... However if your opponent correctly predicts which piece of terrain they are in and moves a unit(s) on top it then it might help them not get close hatched.

Try it though.

You pick their piece of terrain in the infiltration phase after normal units have deployed. So you can see where your opponent is and predict where they can move in the 1-2 movement phases before ymgarls statistically arrive.

If you pick one close enough and small enough for your opponent to fill up, the difference between "fully within" and "touching" will not save you. You still have to be more than 1" away from enemy models. If your opponent commits to terrain blocking you, the odds of being able to place ymgarls more than 1" away and still touching are slim to none.

Like I said HIWPI is base fully in and I can 100% accept the RAW side. I know what thoughts would go through my head if the guy across the table played this "RAW legal" move, and I would not want to make such a desperate move that could be perceived as "WAAC".

This forum is strictly RAW, but it's also important to identify the RAI/HYWPI side. RAI, when also the least advantageous route, helps to perpetuate good sportsmanship and a more enjoyable tournament environment.

rigeld2 wrote:
And if the models are getting a cover save they're inside the area terrain.

Unless you're asserting there's a difference between "in" and "inside"?

Good point, therefore models do not get a cover save for being partially in terrain, only for being in terrain.

rigeld2 wrote:

 Traceoftoxin wrote:
It says they must be completely in the terrain.

No, it does not.

"they must be deployed such that all models are within the selected terrain."

Part of the base in the terrain means that the model is within terrain. Perfectly valid deployment.

How can "within" not mean "all in"? This isn't about whether the model gets cover it's about the depolyment of the model. If part of the base is outside the terrain thein it is not within the terrain, most of the model is within terrain but not all of the model. The rule states all models are within the terrain not all models are mostly within the terrain.

It's all in or not.

 TheGreatAvatar wrote:

rigeld2 wrote:

 Traceoftoxin wrote:
It says they must be completely in the terrain.

No, it does not.

"they must be deployed such that all models are within the selected terrain."

Part of the base in the terrain means that the model is within terrain. Perfectly valid deployment.

How can "within" not mean "all in"? This isn't about whether the model gets cover it's about the depolyment of the model. If part of the base is outside the terrain thein it is not within the terrain, most of the model is within terrain but not all of the model. The rule states all models are within the terrain not all models are mostly within the terrain.

It's all in or not.

Coherency requires you to be within 2" to a friendly model in the unit. Disembarking requires you to be wholly within 6" of an access point. One requires you to to be no farther than the specified distance, the other requires no part of the models base to be further than the specified distance. The wording for Ymgarl is identical to one of those I mentioned. Furthermore, to gain cover saves from area terrain you only have to be within the terrain. If a model is only partially in the terrain does it get a cover save?

 DeathReaper wrote:

rigeld2 wrote:
And if the models are getting a cover save they're inside the area terrain.

Unless you're asserting there's a difference between "in" and "inside"?

Good point, therefore models do not get a cover save for being partially in terrain, only for being in terrain.

At least you're consistently wrong.
Check the image on page 19 - the top Orc with a green circle is not wholly in the terrain, and yet it has a cover save.
Also, according to you, a model that has 1/16" of its base out of cover does not have to make a difficult/dangerous terrain test.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 TheGreatAvatar wrote:

rigeld2 wrote:

 Traceoftoxin wrote:
It says they must be completely in the terrain.

No, it does not.

"they must be deployed such that all models are within the selected terrain."

Part of the base in the terrain means that the model is within terrain. Perfectly valid deployment.

How can "within" not mean "all in"? This isn't about whether the model gets cover it's about the depolyment of the model. If part of the base is outside the terrain thein it is not within the terrain, most of the model is within terrain but not all of the model. The rule states all models are within the terrain not all models are mostly within the terrain.

It's all in or not.

You're ignoring my point about cover because its inconvenient - except its absolutely relevant. Within means the same thing as in which means the same thing as inside - if the base is partially in the terrain the model is in terrain. If you are forced to just barely graze area terrain with your base, you must make a difficult terrain test, agreed? So how can you take a test to move through area terrain and also not be in area terrain at the same time?

You've only used part of the coherency rule to bulster your claim. The coherency rule specifically states (and shows via diagrams) the distance between two models is measured based-to-based. THIS distance must be within 2", as stated by the rule. This doesn't automatically define all uses of "within" indicates base-to-base or base-to-edge.

Without any further expositon of the Ymgarl rule, the use of within implies all the models must be placed wholly in the terrein (the general usage of within).

I used to think it was wrong that Ymgarls could pop-out of a terrain feature with part of their base hanging off the edge, but then my opponent pointed out that simple question: what does it take for a model to be considered in a piece of area terrain to get a cover save? I think we all understand that if any portion of a model's base is in a piece of area terrain then they are considered 'in' the terrain, and if we play that way for cover saves, why would we apply different logic to the Ymgarl?

The truth is, Ymgarl are one of those few units that get to assault the turn they arrive, but they still have to deal with random charge ranges and overwatch (and got nerfed a bit by disorganized charges too). Yes, they're likely to gut their initial charge targets but after that they usually die horribly...so if the fact that they can jump out and get an extra (almost 1")...so what? Big deal. Its how the rules are written. They could have made them have to appear 'wholly' within the terrain but they didn't.

So be it.

 TheGreatAvatar wrote:
You've only used part of the coherency rule to bulster your claim. The coherency rule specifically states (and shows via diagrams) the distance between two models is measured based-to-based. THIS distance must be within 2", as stated by the rule. This doesn't automatically define all uses of "within" indicates base-to-base or base-to-edge.

Without any further expositon of the Ymgarl rule, the use of within implies all the models must be placed wholly in the terrein (the general usage of within).

Almost an hour after my post and you don't bother responding to it?
Cool story bro.

rigeld2 wrote:

 DeathReaper wrote:

rigeld2 wrote:
And if the models are getting a cover save they're inside the area terrain.

Unless you're asserting there's a difference between "in" and "inside"?

Good point, therefore models do not get a cover save for being partially in terrain, only for being in terrain.

At least you're consistently wrong.
Check the image on page 19 - the top Orc with a green circle is not wholly in the terrain, and yet it has a cover save.
Also, according to you, a model that has 1/16" of its base out of cover does not have to make a difficult/dangerous terrain test.

The terrain rules remind me of the movement from reserves rules where the model must move onto the board.

Onto means fully onto as they did not state partially, therefore when they say in terrain (Note they do not use within in this case) they must mean fully in.

Area terrain is pretty simple. If your base is overlapping the base of the terrain at all, you're in it. Qualifying for cover saves, taking difficult terrain, etc.

< Taken by the void dragon. >

 Che-Vito wrote:
I'm going to deploy my Guardsmen on top of my Chimeras from now on; they can be partially embarked.

You realise that statement makes no sense, right?

< Taken by the void dragon. >

 DeathReaper wrote:

rigeld2 wrote:

 DeathReaper wrote:

rigeld2 wrote:
And if the models are getting a cover save they're inside the area terrain.

Unless you're asserting there's a difference between "in" and "inside"?

Good point, therefore models do not get a cover save for being partially in terrain, only for being in terrain.

At least you're consistently wrong.
Check the image on page 19 - the top Orc with a green circle is not wholly in the terrain, and yet it has a cover save.
Also, according to you, a model that has 1/16" of its base out of cover does not have to make a difficult/dangerous terrain test.

The terrain rules remind me of the movement from reserves rules where the model must move onto the board.

Onto means fully onto as they did not state partially, therefore when they say in terrain (Note they do not use within in this case) they must mean fully in.

So when they say a target must be in range, of course they mean fully in range - no measuring just to the base...
Oh - wait... That's wrong.