Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

Hello DD, I am super new to WHFB and i was thinking of starting a dark elves army at 2500. I know i want to run a supreme scorc and a dread lord but i am having a lot of trouble coming up with a list and was looking for some suggestions. the way i was wanting to run my list was so that it would be the biggest pain for my opponents to sigh at me and go "really?". i do know about 2 hydras are needed for this to work. some suggestions would be awesome and a few ideas to kick around would be even better.

If you want to run a dark elf list and be a complete ass, this is what you take
Dreadlord, with crown of command, pendent, 1+ or 2+ armor, pegasus
level 4 shadow or death. sac dagger for shaddow, focus familiar for death
cauldron of blood as bsb
2 units of 20 xbows
a spear bunker for the mage. alternatively, a corsair bunker, provided you give the mage a ward
5 man harpy units, in 2-3
20 black guard, flaming banner for hunting hydras and aboms
10 shades, with a manbane rending star assassin
2 hydras

Calas, that is only of the meanest lists i have seen yet. but my one friend gave me a death star idea the just stomps people. the only problem is that its kind of putting most of your eggs into one basket. I'm working on a list that can work around it by just filling the board with really nasty units so they cant really just take my one strat and just vape it and win.



Automatically Appended Next Post:
Lords : supreme scorc with sac dagger and seed of rebirth 290 (shadow)
dreadlord with pendant, heartseeker and blood armor.225

Heroes: BSB master with BM bane and hydra banner and heavy armour. 165
cauldron of blood 200
level 2 scorc with dispel scroll and channeling staff 175 ( probably shadow or death)

core: spearman bunker FC 30 strong. 225
corsairs FC with sea serpant banner 30 strong. 350
2x 10 Xbowmen. 210

special: FC black guard with flaming standard and biting blade 310

rare: 2 hydras 350.

this is my first attempt so any comments and criticism will be helpful



Automatically Appended Next Post:
I could drop the staff from the level 2 and give her the tomb for 3 spells.

from top to bottom:
seed of rebirth is rubbish, a 6+ regen helps no one
heartseeker is meh, you need help wounding but not hitting, invest in something that boosts your strength instead.
blood armor takes too long to activate, for 10 points more get armor of eternal darkness. 25 pts for a 1+ is too good not to take if you are on foot
hydra banner is a little too expensive personally, you CAN run it but atm your very expensive BSB is running with virtually no armour. at least give him a shield. bear in mind beast master whips are now +1 attack rather than additional hand weapon, so you can take a shield with it and still get the extra attack. Making Whip of Agony a very solid choice for your lord
you can't take both dispel scroll and channeling staff on the level 2; both are arcane items. just take the scroll. Also i'd take lore of dark magic because you need some magic missiles and dark is both easy to cast and effective
if you're gonna run corsairs with sea serpent then give them hand bows: you lose 10 attacks but you get a wicked stand and shoot phase. Also means you can shoot chaff instead of having to charge them
drop biting blade off the black guard, remember you'd lose the halberd AND magic items don't benefit from the effects of magic banners. You're better of keeping the 3 S4 attacks with flaming on the champ
Just saw your edit, again the tome is an arcane item. You can only ever have 1 piece of equipment from each catagory, with the exception of Morathi.
Overall you need more chaff, otherwise fast armies will run rings around you. For example, my Bretonian list would tear you apart simply because i'd be able to get around your flanks and also isolate and take apart your army piecemeal. Try taking some harpies and dark riders in 5 man units. Alternatively, take 7 man witch elf units.

 silentdan wrote:




Automatically Appended Next Post:
Lords : supreme scorc with sac dagger and seed of rebirth 290 (shadow)
dreadlord with pendant, heartseeker and blood armor.225

Heroes: BSB master with BM bane and hydra banner and heavy armour. 165
cauldron of blood 200
level 2 scorc with dispel scroll and channeling staff 175 ( probably shadow or death)

core: spearman bunker FC 30 strong. 225
corsairs FC with sea serpant banner 30 strong. 350
2x 10 Xbowmen. 210

special: FC black guard with flaming standard and biting blade 310

rare: 2 hydras 350.

The standard build for a level 4 is sac dagger, lifetaker and possibly the 4 ward save. She takes lore of shadow. The only time you take a dreadlord is when he is the peg lord. As otherwise he doesn't justify his, often 250+, points cost.

The BSB is not optimal. Unless you are running a big block of cold one knights, the Cauldron is your BSB. This is because the BSB is too vulnerable otherwise, T3 with a 3+ armour save. The little sorceress should only be a level 1 carrying a scroll. Fire is really good as she gives you long range magical attacks. Warriors are good. I would prefer to see the standard of discipline on here if you don't have a peg lord so you get that ld 10 bubble. Corsairs are perfect. Crossbows need a musician.

If you are going to take a tooled up black guard unit, give your champ the beastmasters scourge and the unit carries the razor standard. 20 T3 models with a 5+ save die REALLY quickly. The razor standard helps them get through armour.

The second hydra will do nothing other than give points away against anyone who knows how to deal with a single hydra. I would drop it and get another unit of black guard.

Also, take Harpies. They are really useful.

Lords : supreme scorc with sac dagger 285 (shadow)
dread, armor of darkness, whip of agony and pendant

heroes: cauldron of blood 200
master BSB BM scourge heavy armor and shield 171
level 2 scorc with scroll (dark)

special: FC black guard with flame banner 305
hydra 175
hydra 175

Core: 30 FC spearmen 225
30 FC crosiers sss banner and handbows 350
5 darkriders 85
10 xbow men 110

total 2491


is that a little better or and i doing something completely blonked up


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Lords: s scorc level 4 with sac dagger and pendant : 320

Heroes: level 1 scorc with life taker and scroll : 155
BSB blood cauldron : 225

special: FL black guard with razor banner: 340
FL blackguard flame banner: 305
rare : hydra: 175

core: 30 spearmen: 240 banner of discipline
corsairs FC with sea serpent banner 30 strong. 350
10 man xbow men with muso: 115
10 man xbow men with muso: 115
5 harpies: 55
5 harpies: 55
2490

any better?

don't run razor on the black guard, murder does exactly the same thing for 20 less points
2nd list is a lot better, however personally i'd drop one of the black guard units and run a 10 man shade unit with a manbane rending star assassin for hunting war machines and monsters
i still maintain if you have shadow running flaming on black guard is better than running armor piercing, purely to hunt things like aboms, hydras, etc. As well as the all important Watchtower game in tournaments: being able to reroll hits and wounds from 21 attacks against a tower garrison is priceless

I like the idea of the shades and the assassin. i have made another list in another thread, you can check it out if you want


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Lords: supreme scorc with sac dagger and pendant. 320

Heroes: master with cold one, shield sea serpent cloak and BM scourge BSB hydra banner : 189
cauldron of blood. 200
scorc level 2 with scroll 160

core: 30 FC spearmen banner of discipline: 240
30 FC corsairs sea banner and hand weapons.350
10 xbow men with muso 115
10 xbow men with muso 115
6 harpies: 66
special: 5 CoK with commander and standard banner of movement and ring of darkness.222
20 FL blackguard flame banner: 305

rare: hydra 175.



another list idea. dont know what to do with the last few pts

drop harpies down to 5, give cold ones a muso and drop the ring. Also, only having 5 knights means your BSB can be snipped out: you need 5 non-champion models to grant look out sir
drop the hydra banner bsb altogether

Hmmmmm i might just drop the cold ones for a few witch dart units, and get a few shades. i think i"ll just give my master the banner of murder and put him with the corsairs and drop the cold one all together. that should fee up a hefty chunk of pts

i can drop them for 9 shades and a rending manbane assassin. and still have 10 pts left over ill just give the assassin war cry and laugh at the poor charging squad.

you don't need murder if you're running mindrazor

Then what would you suggest?


Automatically Appended Next Post:
I could change the bsb to the cauldron and keep the master with the corsairs

drop the master altogether, make the cauldron the bsb, put the rest of the points into shades/assassin, then if you still got the points run the unkillable stubborn peg lord/master

The ONLY time to take a dreadlord, is if he is the peg lord.

The only time you take a master is when you're running the cold one bus.

Dropping these two, who add nothing to your list, will allow you to keep both black guard units as well as get shades.

The Armour piercing on the black guard is good as you aren't guaranteed to get mindrazor. I haven't gotten it on my level 4 a number of times. With the number of things that run the dragonhelm/dragonbane gem vs the number of things with regen, the Armour piercing banner is a better choice. Plus corsairs are a better mindrazor target, as Black guard can fight without it.

The 5 Cold one Knights don't justify taking command, let alone the BSB. Take 11 at the very least to make the BSB worthwhile.

well actually you can run peg masters too: now that they get T4 and 3 wounds they are basically cheaper dreadlords with marginally worse stat lines
running the peg lord build on a dragon is also ok
my concern with NOT running flaming on the black guard is that you have nothing that can take off an abom in the first round of combat. Which is something you NEED
Also, I'd advise getting some chariots. Cheap, tough, nasty

CalasTyphon216 wrote:
my concern with NOT running flaming on the black guard is that you have nothing that can take off an abom in the first round of combat. Which is something you NEED

A level 1 fire does that better. And is cheaper. And won't get held up by 5, 10 point items.

the dragonhelm and dragonbane gem only protects 1 dude. just kill everyone around him, break him, and run him down. I see where you're coming from, personally from experience i'd prefer flaming black guard though. Maybe theres just more regen things in my meta

Thanks a lot for the help both of you, I am still really new to the game and have learned a far ammount from the both of you. I will be posting the new soon.



Automatically Appended Next Post:
Final draft (hopefully)

lord: level 4 supreme scorc with sac dagger and pendant: 320

Heroes: cauldron bsb 225
level 1 scorc with scroll 125

core: 30 FC spearmen banner of discipline. : 240
30 fc corsairs sea banner and hand weapons: 350
10 xbowmen muso: 115
10 xbowmen muso: 115
5 harpies: 55

special: 20 fc black guard banner of flame. : 305
20 FC blackguard banner of murder: 320
10 witches with hag and muso and witchbrew: 140

rare: hydra 175

Well, since you asked...

 silentdan wrote:
lord: level 4 supreme scorc with sac dagger and pendant: 320

Pretty basic setup. Very effective for the points. The only change I'd consider would be to add Lifetaker. Having three shots that hit on 2+, period, can be very useful at times.

One note: For 8E army lists, you have to declare the lore a given caster is using. For a Sagdag Sorcerss, I'd go with either Shadow or Metal - the ability of the dagger to add dice dovetails nicely with the higher average casting cost of those two lores.

Heroes: cauldron bsb 225
level 1 scorc with scroll 125

The only change I'd consider here would be to make the Sorceress a L2, with either Fire or Dark Lore. Both are pretty cheap to cast with very useful signature spells.

core: 30 FC spearmen banner of discipline. : 240

30 is too many for a sacrifice unit. 15-20 is all you need. With the SS here, you do NOT want this unit to see serious combat, so it just needs to be big enough to see off any small units attempting an assassination.

You keep full command because you want the musician for reforms, the standard for the banner, and the chump to take challenges.

30 fc corsairs sea banner and hand weapons: 350
10 xbowmen muso: 115
10 xbowmen muso: 115
5 harpies: 55

special: 20 fc black guard banner of flame. : 305
20 FC blackguard banner of murder: 320

All good here.

10 witches with hag and muso and witchbrew: 140

10 Witches isn't a combat block, it's a tirestrip - a speedbump that is going to shred the tires of whatever unit runs it over. It's a sacrificial unit, and as such it should be left cheap - only a musicain is needed. After the first round of combat, there won't be enough witches left for you to worry about loosing them.

Besides, if they are within range of the Cauldron, they're Stubborn - which makes Witchbrew pretty redundant.

rare: hydra 175

No arguments here.

Making the trims I reccomended, you save 140ish points. This can be used for another unit of Witches in the tirestrip role, more Harpies, a minimum unit of Dark Riders with RXB and musician (117 points), a minimum unit of shades with AHW (85 points), or adding stuff to the Sorceresses.

I hadn't commented earlier because it looked like the other contributors were giving you good overall advice. There really isn't anything bad in the DE book; all of it is perfectly competitive if used properly.

thank you very much for the reply, with the trimming i save 105 pts so with the suggested amendments my list is looking like

Lord: levle 4 shadow s scorc with sac dagger pendant and lifetaker: 350

heroes: cauldron bsb: 225
level 2 scorc ( fire or dark whatever is needed more with what i am playing) with scroll 160

core: 20 spearmen FC and banner of discipline 170.
30 fc corsairs sea banner and hand weapons: 350

10 xbowmen muso: 115
10 xbowmen muso: 115
5 harpies: 55
5 harpies: 55
special: 20 fc black guard banner of flame. : 305
20 FC blackguard banner of murder: 320
10 witches muso 105

hydra: 175

2500 flat

I'd go with dark over fire on the level 2, dark is easier to cast and you could luck out and get the really nasty ones

thank you all for the help with my first list, i just have one question tho where should i put my level 2 dark scorc? i was think of ploping her into one of my BG squads

bad idea. black guard want to be in combat, squishy expensive T3 W2 characters with no saves don't. Put her with the crossbows

Ok, thanks man



Automatically Appended Next Post:
Lord: levle 4 (shadow) s scorc with sac dagger talesmen of preservation and lifetaker: 360

heroes: cauldron bsb: 225
level 2 scorc (death) pendant, Dark Pegasus, tomb of furon 235

core: 20 spearmen FC and banner of discipline 170.
29 fc corsairs sea banner and hand weapons: 340
5 dark riders with Xbows and muso 117
18 xbowmen muso: 185
5 harpies: 55
special:
5 shades with additional hw 85
20 witches muso and banner of murder 240
20 fc black guard banner of flame. : 305
rare:
hydra: 175


my friend pointed me towards this kind of idea and i was wondering if you guys had any opinions.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
this list seems to be very hit and run based from what i can see.

I thoroughly recommend fire on your level 2. It gives you a way of dealing with ethereals at long range. Also, switch the banners on your witches and black guard.

I have to agree with you to a point, but i was going to use her for hit and run with death magic. Fly in snipe a hero or a lord then flee when i get charged at. but in my meta i dont really have any ethereals form what i can remember. i do have a vc player but he just runs necromancers and a vampire and spams zombies or spooky skeletons. the others are a brettonia infantry player, dwarves, dark elves,night goblins and an ogre kingdoms army. i guess i can take fire if i really need it, but then im devoting 3 spells to just get fireball and flaming sword of rhuin

 silentdan wrote:
I have to agree with you to a point, but i was going to use her for hit and run with death magic. Fly in snipe a hero or a lord then flee when i get charged at. but in my meta i dont really have any ethereals form what i can remember. i do have a vc player but he just runs necromancers and a vampire and spams zombies or spooky skeletons. the others are a brettonia infantry player, dwarves, dark elves,night goblins and an ogre kingdoms army. i guess i can take fire if i really need it, but then im devoting 3 spells to just get fireball and flaming sword of rhuin

LoDeath works well on a level 4 as you get both of the good snipes, as well as the option for soulblight/doom and darkness. On a low level mage, it means you're spending a large amount of points for a character that has minimal uses. The only reason to take a level 1 in a DE army is to carry a scroll. In my list, I cast on average 2 spells a game with my level 1. And that is fireball. Also, you have one magic weapon in your army. Fireball will help take the pressure off the level 4.

Plus, the pendant works on a lord as low strength hits will be prevented with his armour, and the high strength hits will be prevented with the pendant. Your level 2 will be taken down with lots of low strength fire. Which, Brets, Dwarves, DE, and Goblins have.

Ok then, I could drop the scorc to leve 1 with scroll that would leave me with 75 pts. What do you recommend I add?


Automatically Appended Next Post:
110 holy crap my math is off today

Add bodies to the witches.

i think this could help, im trying to go for a very hit and run esque army, i tried to amend the list so i could get another unit of shades. i want to get a really good magic phase with the shadow and death wizard so i can get more power dice from sniping and buff my ranked units with the shadow mage. i like the level 2 scorc on the peg for running in and casting purple sun then running off when she gets charged.
and with the new Faq if i remember correctly its an easy way to get her T4 with 3 wounds to just throw her on the Peg.

but other than that i was going to use that tactic to blow holes into my opponents lines then go in with my flaking units. basically i'm going to go for a pincer or encircle method of attacking. with trying to draw my opponent into my line of fire then smashing my hard hitters into them.

Lord: levle 4 (shadow) s scorc with sac dagger talesmen of preservation and lifetaker: 360

Heroes: heroes: cauldron bsb: 225
level 2 scorc (death) pendant, Dark Pegasus, tomb of furon 235

Core: 20 spearmen FC and banner of discipline 170.
20 fc corsairs sea banner and hand weapons: 250
18 xbowmen muso: 185
5 dark riders Rxbows: 117
5 harpies: 55

special: 20 fc black guard banner of flame. : 305
5 shades with extra hand weapons and light armor : 90
20 witches muso and banner of murder: 240
5 shades with extra hw and light armor: 90
rare: hydra 175

comes to 2497