Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

 feeder wrote:
Frazz, what do you have against people going to school?

Because then Texas will run out of people with low IQs to execute

 Frazzled wrote:

 feeder wrote:
Frazz, what do you have against people going to school?

Not a damn thing. I am fully supportive of them going to school where they are citizens, or alternatively in Canada where you can pay for them and compete for university spots instead of me. I prefer to save university positions and taxpayer funds for US citizens and legal immigrants or visa holders.

What part of "they cannot qualify for federal aid" do you not understand?

You heard it, Frazzled is for quotas.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Kanluwen wrote:

 Frazzled wrote:

 feeder wrote:
Frazz, what do you have against people going to school?

Not a damn thing. I am fully supportive of them going to school where they are citizens, or alternatively in Canada where you can pay for them and compete for university spots instead of me. I prefer to save university positions and taxpayer funds for US citizens and legal immigrants or visa holders.

What part of "they cannot qualify for federal aid" do you not understand?

But they are breaking the law, and lawbreakers have no business at a University.

I guess we should fire all university stuff dealing with addiction and substance abuse since it's illegal to do drugs and the university should save those spots for law abiding students. University police officers should forward any tickets to the enrollment office for instant administrative withdrawal from the university and to begin the process of kicking students out of the dorms for breaking the law.

It's a stupid stance to take, but what do we really expect.

 Frazzled wrote:

 feeder wrote:
Frazz, what do you have against people going to school?

Not a damn thing. I am fully supportive of them going to school where they are citizens, or alternatively in Canada where you can pay for them and compete for university spots instead of me. I prefer to save university positions and taxpayer funds for US citizens and legal immigrants or visa holders.

My understanding of the DACA means they cannot qualify for taxpayer funding.

As far as competition for spots goes, well that's too bad for local dummies. Society is better off with the best and brightest rising due to merit, not accident of birth.

 Kanluwen wrote:

 Frazzled wrote:

 feeder wrote:
Frazz, what do you have against people going to school?

Not a damn thing. I am fully supportive of them going to school where they are citizens, or alternatively in Canada where you can pay for them and compete for university spots instead of me. I prefer to save university positions and taxpayer funds for US citizens and legal immigrants or visa holders.

What part of "they cannot qualify for federal aid" do you not understand?

What part of "state aid, resident tuition and taking the spot of a US citizen or someone legally here" are you not getting?


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 d-usa wrote:
You heard it, Frazzled is for quotas.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Kanluwen wrote:

 Frazzled wrote:

 feeder wrote:
Frazz, what do you have against people going to school?

Not a damn thing. I am fully supportive of them going to school where they are citizens, or alternatively in Canada where you can pay for them and compete for university spots instead of me. I prefer to save university positions and taxpayer funds for US citizens and legal immigrants or visa holders.

What part of "they cannot qualify for federal aid" do you not understand?

But they are breaking the law, and lawbreakers have no business at a University.

I guess we should fire all university stuff dealing with addiction and substance abuse since it's illegal to do drugs and the university should save those spots for law abiding students. University police officers should forward any tickets to the enrollment office for instant administrative withdrawal from the university and to begin the process of kicking students out of the dorms for breaking the law.

It's a stupid stance to take, but what do we really expect.

Agreed, your stance is asininely stupid to take.
Those who are addicted to substances are 1) not actively taking them; 2) not using the university staff to aid and abett their behavior.

Ultimately I think these things are bowing to reality more than anything else.

Such students are going to make their way into these systems, it's going to happen. The school systems are not law enforcement agencies, but rather centers of higher learning, cultural exchange, and exposure to new ideas and experiences. This is a fundamental and inherent concept that precludes excluding people who are "illegal" just for its own sake. Add to that that many or most of these students had little or no choice in where they were taken and grew up, often the entirety of their lives as far as they can remember beyond very eary childhood memories were of the US with little or no ability to operate in what is ostensibly their home country and who see themselves as culturally American, and it makes things even more awkward.

There are valid issues and concerns on both sides, and no clear good answers. Many of these students, aside from ink on paper, are as American as anyone else. That ink on paper however means something too though. That said, having someone who's job is to help minimize problems with such students within the aforementioned missions of such institutions, acknowledging the issues exist, is probably not a terrible idea from that perspective.

You are you're own worst enemy Frazzled. Everytime you post you do more damage to yourself than anyone ever could. But hey, silver lining, you are a fantastic bad example.

 Frazzled wrote:

 Kanluwen wrote:

 Frazzled wrote:

 feeder wrote:
Frazz, what do you have against people going to school?

Not a damn thing. I am fully supportive of them going to school where they are citizens, or alternatively in Canada where you can pay for them and compete for university spots instead of me. I prefer to save university positions and taxpayer funds for US citizens and legal immigrants or visa holders.

What part of "they cannot qualify for federal aid" do you not understand?

What part of "state aid, resident tuition and taking the spot of a US citizen or someone legally here" are you not getting?

Why shouldn't they be getting state aid or resident tuition? In many cases, they're paying state taxes(if not y'know, with an actual job that pays taxes but through things like sales or property taxes) and reside at an address within the state.

And what makes a US citizen ENTITLED to that spot? The fact that they applied?

 d-usa wrote:
You heard it, Frazzled is for quotas.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Kanluwen wrote:

 Frazzled wrote:

 feeder wrote:
Frazz, what do you have against people going to school?

Not a damn thing. I am fully supportive of them going to school where they are citizens, or alternatively in Canada where you can pay for them and compete for university spots instead of me. I prefer to save university positions and taxpayer funds for US citizens and legal immigrants or visa holders.

What part of "they cannot qualify for federal aid" do you not understand?

But they are breaking the law, and lawbreakers have no business at a University.

I guess we should fire all university stuff dealing with addiction and substance abuse since it's illegal to do drugs and the university should save those spots for law abiding students. University police officers should forward any tickets to the enrollment office for instant administrative withdrawal from the university and to begin the process of kicking students out of the dorms for breaking the law.

It's a stupid stance to take, but what do we really expect.

Agreed, your stance is asininely stupid to take.
Those who are addicted to substances are 1) not actively taking them;

Uhh...you might want to rethink this statement.

Someone who is addicted to substances is, by definition, actively taking them.

2) not using the university staff to aid and abett their behavior.

How do you know that?

I would like to argue that "people addicted to drugs aren't actively taking them" may be the dumbest thing Frazzled has posted, but sadly that would be a lie.

Just look at this criminal activity going on over there:

Erica Fuentes, a UMD student and the president of Political Latinxs United for Movement and Action in Society told The Washington Post that a coordinator could help illegal immigrant students who want to apply to state schools
.
“Applying to a state institution can be difficult for undocumented students,” Fuentes said. “A lot of times college applications require students to disclose personal information about themselves, oftentimes [asking] residency questions and things like that.”

A coordinator could also give “emotional counsel and support,” Fuentes explained, because “undocumented students face a lot of issues because they’re balancing going to school, oftentimes paying their tuition entirely out of pocket because they don’t qualify for financial aid.”"

Damn criminals, throw them all in a cell to rot!

 feeder wrote:

 Frazzled wrote:

 feeder wrote:
Frazz, what do you have against people going to school?

Not a damn thing. I am fully supportive of them going to school where they are citizens, or alternatively in Canada where you can pay for them and compete for university spots instead of me. I prefer to save university positions and taxpayer funds for US citizens and legal immigrants or visa holders.

My understanding of the DACA means they cannot qualify for taxpayer funding.

As far as competition for spots goes, well that's too bad for local dummies. Society is better off with the best and brightest rising due to merit, not accident of birth.

They still qualify for local aid as well as in-state tuition. (edit I posted Taste, that will teach me for posting while eating....MMMM!)
I'm not seeing Canada volunteering to provide university spots for them. What do you have against people going to school?

 Kanluwen wrote:

 Frazzled wrote:


2) not using the university staff to aid and abett their behavior.

How do you know that?

They surely are not using the university to have a place to use drugs and alcohol, meet people who supply drugs and alcohol, use financial aid to purchase drugs and alcohol, and never ever have any drug or alcohol abuses swept under the table by university staff.

lonestarr777 wrote:
You are you're own worst enemy Frazzled. Everytime you post you do more damage to yourself than anyone ever could. But hey, silver lining, you are a fantastic bad example.

Bad to the bone.

feth it, Frazzled is getting as willfully ignorant as whembly and he has always argued as dishonestly as him. We are less than an hour away from the same garbage filled "I'm an old scary caveman, my daughter could beat me up, this technology scares me, oh look my dog did something weird" posts that always end these discussions.

I have no idea why I get sucked in, so I'll fix that.

 d-usa wrote:

 Kanluwen wrote:

 Frazzled wrote:

2) not using the university staff to aid and abett their behavior.

How do you know that?

They surely are not using the university to have a place to use drugs and alcohol, meet people who supply drugs and alcohol, use financial aid to purchase drugs and alcohol, and never ever have any drug or alcohol abuses swept under the table by university staff.

Is that what all the "all university stuff dealing with addiction and substance abuse" does? Facilitate addiction and sweep illicit drug use under carpets? If that's so then they need to be fire immediately.

Guys, lets tone down the rhetoric and personal attacks, it's not doing anyone any good.

Ultimately we have a multifaceted issue with impacts and consequences for millions of people, that ties right into dozens of other issues and touches lots of hot cultural buttons, with no clear good solution on hand.

Yes, very cute. You have a very big... gun. Feel better now that you showed it off to the bad man on the internet saying mean things? I hope so, because quite frankly I don't give a gak. If thats tbe best you can reply, then you really are just a sad and scared old man.

 Breotan wrote:

 d-usa wrote:

 Kanluwen wrote:

 Frazzled wrote:

2) not using the university staff to aid and abett their behavior.

How do you know that?

They surely are not using the university to have a place to use drugs and alcohol, meet people who supply drugs and alcohol, use financial aid to purchase drugs and alcohol, and never ever have any drug or alcohol abuses swept under the table by university staff.

Is that what all the "all university stuff dealing with addiction and substance abuse" does? Facilitate addiction and sweep illicit drug use under carpets? If that's so then they need to be fire immediately.

The argument is that criminals have no business taking university spots from non-criminals, and that any programs targeting to assist people who are criminals is somehow....criminal?....I don't know.

It's a stupid argument and worthy of stupid ridicule.

 Kanluwen wrote:

 Frazzled wrote:
In other politics news a state university hires an "undocumented student coordinator." to "“advocate for, advise, represent, and protect undocumented and DACAmented students,"

Whoever hired him should be immediately terminated. That has interesting RICO considerations now that they broadcast it over the wires.

https://townhall.com/tipsheet/leahbarkoukis/2017/03/28/public-university-hires-coordinator-to-protect-illegal-immigrant-students-n2305312

So when do we start terminating the people who help student athletes get away with sexual assault?

Also, I think you might need to brush up on what DACA actually is.

Deferred Action for Childhood Arrivals (DACA) is an American immigration policy started by the Obama administration in June 2012 that allows certain illegal aliens to the United States who entered the country as minors to receive a renewable two-year period of deferred action from deportation and eligibility for a work permit.

To be eligible, undocumented immigrants must have entered the United States before their 16th birthday and before June 2007, be currently in school, a high school graduate or be honorably discharged from the military, be under age 31 as of June 15, 2012, and not have been convicted of a felony, significant misdemeanor or three other misdemeanors, or otherwise pose a threat to national security. The program does not provide lawful status or a path to citizenship, nor does it provide eligibility for federal welfare or student aid.

The problem as I see it is that the state university system is falling victim to the failure of the Federal and State governments to control the national border and create pragmatic policies to identify unlawful residents and remedy their unlawful status. There are teenagers in TX who are technically unlawful residents because either their parents immigrated into the USA and TX illegally or they themselves immigrated illegally and now they have completed their K-12 public education and want to attend a state university system school. The university system didn't create this problem but they have to deal with it, they can't fix the problem, they lack the authority and power to do so, they can only try to find the most workable solution for them to deal with it.

Who is getting away with helping student athletes commit sexual assault? That's a fine whataboutism hand grenade to throw into the discussion.

 d-usa wrote:

 Kanluwen wrote:

 Frazzled wrote:


2) not using the university staff to aid and abett their behavior.

How do you know that?

They surely are not using the university to have a place to use drugs and alcohol, meet people who supply drugs and alcohol, use financial aid to purchase drugs and alcohol, and never ever have any drug or alcohol abuses swept under the table by university staff.

If they were that would be illegal and both they and that administration should be both expelled/fired and prosecuted to the fullest extent of the law.

 Frazzled wrote:

 feeder wrote:

 Frazzled wrote:

 feeder wrote:
Frazz, what do you have against people going to school?

Not a damn thing. I am fully supportive of them going to school where they are citizens, or alternatively in Canada where you can pay for them and compete for university spots instead of me. I prefer to save university positions and taxpayer funds for US citizens and legal immigrants or visa holders.

My understanding of the DACA means they cannot qualify for taxpayer funding.

As far as competition for spots goes, well that's too bad for local dummies. Society is better off with the best and brightest rising due to merit, not accident of birth.

They still qualify for local aid as well as in-taste tuition.
I'm not seeing Canada volunteering to provide university spots for them. What do you have against people going to school?

They aren't de facto citizens of Canada. They are de facto citizens of the state in question.

Children residing in Canada have a right (in fact required by law) to go to school, even if their parents are undocumented immigrants. I don't know about university though.

 d-usa wrote:
feth it, Frazzled is getting as willfully ignorant as whembly and he has always argued as dishonestly as him.

Ignorant of what? Legally this is not hard, and you've not refuted that, just insulted me. As to the rest, that just not nurturing on your part.

We are less than an hour away from the same garbage filled "I'm an old scary caveman, my daughter could beat me up, this technology scares me, oh look my dog did something weird" posts that always end these discussions.

I have no idea why I get sucked in, so I'll fix that.

*I am old. I am scary. And I am hairy so I guess thats right.
*Of course my daughter could beat you up. Thats kind of a given.
*Everything since fire is over rated.
*Rodney ate a dead bird on our last walk, running in front of me so I couldn't stop him. The crunching sound was extremely disconcerting. I think he almost made the mountain dog puke.






Automatically Appended Next Post:

lonestarr777 wrote:
Yes, very cute. You have a very big... gun. Feel better now that you showed it off to the bad man on the internet saying mean things? I hope so, because quite frankly I don't give a gak. If thats tbe best you can reply, then you really are just a sad and scared old man.

Here's the part where take a breath, breath, and put the party sombrero on.*
Also, sad and scared, because I believe in following the law like every other nation on the planet except maybe Louisiana? Again thats not nurturing.

*A fellow poster made that about my posting style once. I would have thought you would sympathize.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 feeder wrote:

 Frazzled wrote:

 feeder wrote:

 Frazzled wrote:

 feeder wrote:
Frazz, what do you have against people going to school?

Not a damn thing. I am fully supportive of them going to school where they are citizens, or alternatively in Canada where you can pay for them and compete for university spots instead of me. I prefer to save university positions and taxpayer funds for US citizens and legal immigrants or visa holders.

My understanding of the DACA means they cannot qualify for taxpayer funding.

As far as competition for spots goes, well that's too bad for local dummies. Society is better off with the best and brightest rising due to merit, not accident of birth.

They still qualify for local aid as well as in-taste tuition.
I'm not seeing Canada volunteering to provide university spots for them. What do you have against people going to school?

They aren't de facto citizens of Canada. They are de facto citizens of the state in question.

They are not citizens of the US either, so we should follow the same standard.

Children residing in Canada have a right (in fact required by law) to go to school, even if their parents are undocumented immigrants. I don't know about university though.

Just like in the US.*

*But not New Mexico. They don't have school there because the radioactive muties are attracted to congregations of humans.

 d-usa wrote:
The argument is that criminals have no business taking university spots from non-criminals, and that any programs targeting to assist people who are criminals is somehow....criminal?....I don't know.

It's a stupid argument and worthy of stupid ridicule.

If a university decided to set up an organization to help student athletes get steroids then that is illegal and should be shut down. Does it happen? Sadly it does. Should it be tolerated? Absolutely not. Same with setting up organizations to help illegals game the system.

 Breotan wrote:

 d-usa wrote:
The argument is that criminals have no business taking university spots from non-criminals, and that any programs targeting to assist people who are criminals is somehow....criminal?....I don't know.

It's a stupid argument and worthy of stupid ridicule.

If a university decided to set up an organization to help student athletes get steroids then that is illegal and should be shut down. Does it happen? Sadly it does. Should it be tolerated? Absolutely not. Same with setting up organizations to help illegals game the system.

Exactly. Both are illegal actiivty being fostered by the university.

GENERAL IN THREAD WARNING - RULE #1 - FOLLOW IT ALWAYS!

Also, this thread is heading towards lock-down.

Again.

And I don't see it coming back if that happens.

Prestor Jon wrote:

Who is getting away with helping student athletes commit sexual assault? That's a fine whataboutism hand grenade to throw into the discussion.

Sure but in the end it is as relevant as the idea that somebody being hired to essentially help an illegal immigrant or a child of illegal immigrants get into a state college, by the books, being involved in a RICO offense.

And for the record? Look into sexual assaults on college campuses and the nature of "blame the victim". But you probably already know about that and just wanted to start an argument, as always.

 Kanluwen wrote:
Why shouldn't they be getting state aid or resident tuition? In many cases, they're paying state taxes(if not y'know, with an actual job that pays taxes but through things like sales or property taxes) and reside at an address within the state.

If I were to sneak across our northern border and show up to a Canadian university, the last thing I can expect is to be allowed to enroll in classes. In fact, the most likely thing that will happen is my being bussed to the border, being declared persona non gratis for at least six months, and frog-walked to the US side of the border. Same with showing up unannounced to a university in Mexico, except the trip to the border will be less pleasant.

The US has one of the most permissive immigration/visa systems in the world. I don't see why expecting people to follow the law is somehow controversial. Someone from Canada comes south, gets permanent resident status and wants to take night classes at the local community college? Knock yourself out. Some girl from India wants to come here on a H1b visa and work at Microsoft? More power to her. Some chap from Argentina wants to study at a US university? Let him get a student visa and then come on up. Someone sneaking across a border or overstaying a tourist visa needs to be shown the door. If they want to come back, let them do so legally.

 Kanluwen wrote:
And what makes a US citizen ENTITLED to that spot? The fact that they applied?

Citizenship makes them entitled to compete with other citizens/legal immigrants/student visa holders for that spot. Please don't conflate legal and illegal immigration when making your counter-arguments.

Looky looky. Wow. Thats...bad.
http://www.realclearpolitics.com/epolls/other/president_trump_job_approval-6179.html

 Breotan wrote:

 d-usa wrote:
The argument is that criminals have no business taking university spots from non-criminals, and that any programs targeting to assist people who are criminals is somehow....criminal?....I don't know.

It's a stupid argument and worthy of stupid ridicule.

If a university decided to set up an organization to help student athletes get steroids then that is illegal and should be shut down. Does it happen? Sadly it does. Should it be tolerated? Absolutely not. Same with setting up organizations to help illegals game the system.

"Helping illegals game the system" would be helping them apply for financial aid, whether federal or state, or other programs that they legally cannot apply for.

Nothing in the article suggests that is the case. It mentions residency status within the United States, which doesn't affect in-state tuition rates since in-state tuition rates are literally set for people who dwell in-state.

 Breotan wrote:

 Kanluwen wrote:
Why shouldn't they be getting state aid or resident tuition? In many cases, they're paying state taxes(if not y'know, with an actual job that pays taxes but through things like sales or property taxes) and reside at an address within the state.

If I were to sneak across our northern border and show up to a Canadian university

Except that has no relation at all to the discussion. I believe that argument is referred to as a straw man as no one has argued that.

The fact they are receiving instate tuition means their tuition is being subsidized. Interesting a US citizen from California or a legal resident from England (I hear the Engs are lovely this time of year) would typically have to pay 2x - 10x what that person would pay.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 skyth wrote:

 Breotan wrote:

 Kanluwen wrote:
Why shouldn't they be getting state aid or resident tuition? In many cases, they're paying state taxes(if not y'know, with an actual job that pays taxes but through things like sales or property taxes) and reside at an address within the state.

If I were to sneak across our northern border and show up to a Canadian university

Except that has no relation at all to the discussion. I believe that argument is referred to as a straw man as no one has argued that.

I did and it was not refuted.