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I know that the black mace gets to be very painfull in the hands of a deamon prince but if you look at the price tag of a full equiped one:
DP of Tzeentch, wings, 3+, Black Mace ; that is about 260 ish points, is he really worth that investment?

Yes, yes he is.

He'll be flying till the turn you want him to assault something. At which point he will glide and then assault.

For slightly more than a fully upgraded Tac squad, you get a guy that will destroy anything with a toughness value, and many things that don't.

I'm not a particular fan of Daemon Princes but used right the build you listed can be brutal, as he can go through any infantry in the game, and with challenges can limit the attacks returning on him.....I just don't like my warlord flying solo

Just a Question there:

Most DPs I see are fielding the Black Mace.

I see none wielding the Khorne Axe. Is the Black Mace really better because of its ability?

Because Khorne Axe Prince has ID against T4 and more attacks to field. Would like your opinion there on how valid the axe is vs. the mace.

Dropping WS is bad for the DP as 9's will mean most hit him on 5's and he cannot be neutralized round after round by a challenge.

If you want the Axe put it on a lord on a jug and throw him in a unit of spawn, that is a real meatgrinder...

Why would the khorne axe always ID t4?

It increases the strength of the model by 2.
This also effects your vector strike, giving your MC a STR 8 vector strike. This can actually be useful when you want to vector strike that night scythe.

Khorne DPs also have furious charge, so the DP is STR 9 on the charge.
The axe also gives Rage, so the DP has 7 + d6 attacks on the charge.

Point for point, the black mace is better, but the axe is good if your fielding 2 DPs and one already has the mace. This is because a daemon weapon vastly increases the killyness of the DP. For ~225 points you have 5 attacks, for ~270 points you have 50% more attacks and special features.

Doesn't the Mace also increase strength by two though?

 labmouse42 wrote:
It increases the strength of the model by 2.
This also effects your vector strike, giving your MC a STR 8 vector strike. This can actually be useful when you want to vector strike that night scythe.

Khorne DPs also have furious charge, so the DP is STR 9 on the charge.
The axe also gives Rage, so the DP has 7 + d6 attacks on the charge.

Point for point, the black mace is better, but the axe is good if your fielding 2 DPs and one already has the mace. This is because a daemon weapon vastly increases the killyness of the DP. For ~225 points you have 5 attacks, for ~270 points you have 50% more attacks and special features.

I don't believe the mace affects the Vector Strike since the rules for vector strike in the Core Rulebook clearly state that you use the model's unmodified strength and AP 3.

Batmarine wrote:
Doesn't the Mace also increase strength by two though?

A power maul gives +2 S, but the black mace is not a power maul.

What's better, a CSM daemon prince with the mace, or an allied Bloodthirster? Both are 250ish points, but the bloodthirster has more toughness, strength, better invul, but less attacks.

Strength bonuses for a Daemon Weapon wielding Daemon Prince in combat does not matter. Thanks to the way Smash attacks work, you can still get a LOT of S10 attacks:

Axe without Smash = 5 + 2 (charge) + d6 (average 3.5) = 10.5 average S9 attacks
Mace with Smash = 3 +1 (charging) + d6 (average 3.5) = 7.5 average S10 attacks

Then, you have to figure in the effects of Cursed, which could lead to more deaths caused.

The main issue with the Axe though is that you do not have access to Biomancy*. Biomancy for the Daemon Prince is nearly mandatory IMO. Having access to Eternal Warrior, FNP, increased Toughness, more Attacks, etc.

It is just too much to say no to.

* I fully understand the cost increase as a result of this.

Batmarine wrote:
Doesn't the Mace also increase strength by two though?

The Blace Mace has Fleshbane and something special that happens when it kills something. Its also AP4. But aside from that it shares nothing with Mauls.

 Grey Templar wrote:

Batmarine wrote:
Doesn't the Mace also increase strength by two though?

The Blace Mace has Fleshbane and something special that happens when it kills something. Its also AP4. But aside from that it shares nothing with Mauls.

And as a reminder for any not in the know, with the Daemon Prince it is resolved at AP2.

Yeah, which is why its awsome on a Prince and meh on a lord.

I'm completely against the DP it is way to expensive for what it does, every time I fight one as soon as he flies i just change the ADL and my 2 autocannon/2Flakks havocs to him and he either dies due to his 5+, or if he has armor 2-3 wounds down (due to the quad & missiles) and then just shoot him with everything else to score the 1-2 remaining wounds. Whenever I use it is the same i get shot by the crappiest weapons (trying to get him down to ground) and then get shot as if there was no tomorrow.

Sure even if he gets into combat with 1-2 wounds he is going to eat a whole unit, but usually a whole unit is more less his price and once it is done if you are not next he is surely dead. It could pay his points but you are wasting a HQ slot when a lord is cheaper and can be just as killy.

At the end is a single target who is flying on his own ahead of any other unit. A juggy lord does the same amount of pwnage and he is a lot cheaper and harder to kill

 Lord Yayula wrote:
At the end is a single target who is flying on his own ahead of any other unit. A juggy lord does the same amount of pwnage and he is a lot cheaper and harder to kill

Why would you fly him ahead on his own? I never understand everyone's haste to throw things at the enemy. You have 5-7 turns in a game. You don't need to fly the Daemon Prince forward right away and try for a turn 2 assault, risking everything. If you hit their lines on turn 3 (plenty of time for the rest of the army to get up there) then you still have 3-5 turns of him killing stuff. That's more than enough. If everyone would stop sending their PRinces on suicide runs we'd all see how useful they can be.

I keep mine behind a bastion to block LOS, then leap forward when I know I can get a charge or at least Vector Strike something, and only when I have presented other clear threats (Heldrake, outflanking Lord/Bikes, etc.)

He's going to be in reserves on turn 1. Come on on turn 2. And assault on turn 3.

You have one round of shooting to take him out before he begins eating you.

Just don't try to mess with lysander, DW Knights, or any other str.10 in CC and you'll be gold.

A nasty combo is to take a second prince with the axe of blind fury and charge both into a unit then laugh maniacally as it evaporates.

 buddha wrote:
Just don't try to mess with lysander, DW Knights, or any other str.10 in CC and you'll be gold.

Which is why you don't go Khorne and make him a ML 3 Psyker to try to get either Iron Arm or Endurance (you do this for other reasons too).

definatly worth it. but whats more worth it is DP of nurgle. Always nurgle

 labmouse42 wrote:
It increases the strength of the model by 2.
This also effects your vector strike, giving your MC a STR 8 vector strike. This can actually be useful when you want to vector strike that night scythe.

I thought that Vector Strikes went off base strength and didn't include any bonuses from Weapons or anything.

And Nurgle is actually the worst mark for a DP. Not being able to pursue increases his odds of being shot up for minimal return.

I usually do run the CSM DPs with the Mark of Nurgle, largely for theme, but also for the Shrouded rule. Getting 2+ cover saves for him whilst Swooping towards enemy lines has really helped him survive long enough to wreck multiple units. I like to take him with the Black Mace as a tank hunter. But I've also used him as a successful psyker....I like to take Plague Wind (or Nurgle's Rot if not that), and 2 Biomancy powers (hopefully 1 of which will be Iron Arm, but Smite is a decent default)....although Psychic Shriek is good too, kinda like our own less good Doom of Malantai.

I hadn't considered the Nurgle DPs can't Sweeping Advance because they are Slow and Purposeful. And then I reread the DP rules, and the Slaanesh versions get Rending, even better for tank hunting.

Though the Fury Axe increases strength by 2 thus giving the DP S8, you don't sacrifice too many attacks to just Smash with the Mace, and they all count as AP2 anyway, so I'd stick with the Black Mace for DPs as far as weapon upgrades.

I suppose the Scrolls of Magnus would be a neat upgrade to try too, pretty random though, and though only taking a wound from them on a 6, at AP1 the DP invul isn't good enough to comfort me there. The Burning Brand is actually much more appealing. Then he'd be like a mini-Heldrake...the Nurgle Sorcerer DP might like that one. Though for the points I can get an Allied Nurgle Daemons Prince with Breath of Chaos which is very similar and can glance vehicles and kill Terminators nicely, and at T6 with EW.

The Khorne DPs just get Furious Charge I think, no Rage nor CounterAttack for DPs. The Tzeentch ones get to reroll saving throws of 1, not awful I guess. But for those two Chaos gods I'd stick with the JuggerFuryAxeLord and ScrollBikerLord/Sorcerer.

 Lord Krungharr wrote:
I hadn't considered the Nurgle DPs can't Sweeping Advance because they are Slow and Purposeful. And then I reread the DP rules, and the Slaanesh versions get Rending, even better for tank hunting.

The real boon of slaanesh is the fleet. This helps the DP in a few ways.
* Your far less likely to roll at 4" charge when your opponent is 5" away
* They can reroll their run dice move
* They run an extra 3"
Remember that swooping MCs can run 2d6" straight forward. This means that your DP is much more likely to get a 10"+ run in addition to their 24" movement. Why is this important? Because they can contest an objective while flying over it! If your DP is around on the bottom of the game, you can fly him onto an objective very far away. This gives you a strong tactical advantage.

 Lord Krungharr wrote:
I suppose the Scrolls of Magnus would be a neat upgrade to try too,

Alas, they cannot bring a scroll of magnus. The axe was FAQ'ed so the DP can bring it, but the scroll was not.

 Lord Krungharr wrote:
The Khorne DPs just get Furious Charge I think, no Rage nor CounterAttack for DPs.

The axe of fury gives rage.

 Lord Krungharr wrote:
The Tzeentch ones get to reroll saving throws of 1, not awful I guess. But for those two Chaos gods I'd stick with the JuggerFuryAxeLord and ScrollBikerLord/Sorcerer.

It really helps the DP against normal attacks. Instead of a normal attack being saved 66.67% of the time, they are saved 77.79% of the time. That's not bad, given the Rule of Resilience, which states the higher a unit's Resilience, the greater it’s overall effect.

Vector strike is off your base strength, unless its been FAQ'd otherwise the +2S boost won't affect it

So far, my favorite DP build has been DoT, Black Mace, Power Armor, Wings and gift.

It combos really well if you can nab Invisibility on a Sorcerer. I run my Sorcerers with No Marks, so I can get three rolls on the table. That way if you Dive, all of a sudden you're sporting a 2+ Cover Save, and you're hard to hit.

I think adding Mastery levels is too much though. He becomes to expensive at that point.

Cyberian wrote:
Just a Question there:

Most DPs I see are fielding the Black Mace.

I see none wielding the Khorne Axe. Is the Black Mace really better because of its ability?

Because Khorne Axe Prince has ID against T4 and more attacks to field. Would like your opinion there on how valid the axe is vs. the mace.

If you are referring to the Axe of Blind Fury the reason you don't see DP with it is because the Axe can only be selected by a model with the Mark of Khorne. Deamon Princes do not have marks therefore they can not select the Axe of Blind Fury...



HEY! Just read the new FAQ. Waddaya know? Now I'm wrong. I've been playing SM too long. Time to get back to chaos...

Do people ever take him without wings? Is their a reliable way for him to get across the field if so?

My biggest concern is that he gets shot up half way there. At least if he survives to get there, does meh but still scares my opponent into reacting he is doing something. If he fluffs it and comes crashing down in the middle of the table then he is a massive point sink.

Also any tips on good synergy units?
Do people reserve him or just put him on / fly him up later?