Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

Seeking feedback on the following list.

HQ

Abbadon
Chaos Lord with Sigil of Corruption, Black Mace, Terminator Armor, MoK

Troops

Chosen, +1 man, MoK, Lightning Claws x4, VotLW, IoW
CSM, +4 marines, VotLW, CCW, MoN, 2x Flamer
CSM, +4 marines, VotLW, CCW, MoN, 2x Flamer

Fast Attack

3 x Heldrake

Heavy Support

Land Raider, Extra Armor, Daemonic Possession
Havocs, Lascannon x4

The concept behind this list is that Abbadon, the CL and the Chosen arrive in the Land Raider and drive flat out towards the toughest enemy unit. They assault by turn 3, dropping a ton of attacks on whatever they happen to catch up to.

While the Land Raider is getting there, the Heldrakes are vector striking and flaming units on the ground, and the Havocs are shooting up enemy armor. The CSM squads are camping on objectives and go to ground / grab some cover as soon as they get there.

This list has been pretty effective for me over the last 2 months, not so much by wiping out the enemy, but by winning on points. Abbadon typically gets me first blood, slay the warlord and a VP for killing a unit all in one turn (usually turn 3). The havocs typically get one or two VPs by knocking out enemy armor, and one or two more VPs from Abbadon's second assault. I usually lose a CSM squad and at least one Heldrake in the process, but not much more. The Havocs usually last until the end of the game because opponents waste a lot of shots on the Land Raider.

Am I just enjoying a lot of luck, or is this list actually good?

Sounds like it has syngergy and fullfills your battle plan quite nicely. I'd say it's a good list and that you use it well to top it off.

That being said, we don't know anything about your competition, but i'm assuming it's somewhat on par with everything around?

It's not a bad list, but your opponents aren't dealing with your army very efficiently which is why you're winning so easily.

Against a vehicle heavy army, flyer heavy army, or an army with a lot of 2+ armour saves your list won't last very long.
Essentially, if you take Helldrakes with baleflamers they'll annihilate enemy power armour units but can't really hurt other flyers. If you take them with cannons then they'll hurt other flyers but be next to useless at wiping out large ground units.

If your opponent runs a vehicle heavy army, your Helldrakes will have to attempt vector strikes in order to do any damage (assuming you take the baleflamers like most people do). This massively reduces their immediate effectiveness upon the game because you'll have to open boxes in order for them to do any real damage.

If your opponent is running lots of Termies, again your baleflamer Helldrakes won't be sweeping units off the board like it normally does against 3+ saves. It's designed to annihilate space marine forces in power armour and anything worse than that, but it's far less effective against 2+ saves due to no insta-death.

If your opponent is running any serious air defence like an ADL/Quad Gun and a couple of flyers, say for example a Stormraven/Stormtalon or two, or you're playing against IG with Hydras and Vendettas, your Helldrakes won't last 2 turns.

Just off the top of my head, the nightmare lists for you to face are going to be a Dark Angels Deathwing list, a GK Draigowing list, or any lists with some decent anti-air or medium-heavy transports. Also, drop pod lists will give you a headache if they drop enough units in your deployment zone before your Helldrakes arrive because you don't have enough boots on the ground to survive a decent alpha strike.

These are all very specific lists though, so if none of your opponents so far have run anything close to them, it's no wonder you're wiping the floor with them because against any list that isn't pointed out above, your list will stomp face.

You will struggle against 2+ heavy armies, but I disagree with most everything else Enceladus said.

Heldrakes are ok vector striking enemy flyers. They have done a good job of it for me... ...they also open vehicles pretty readily with vector strikes. After they vector strike the vehicle, the flame the contents. Works great.

The list has the tools to kill hydras / quad guns before the fliers even hit the board. No one run draigowing anymore, and if they did, 6 las cannon shots would put an end to than nonsense pretty quickly.

I think it is a decent list.

I agree that it's a decent list, I wouldn't want to fight it without tailoring for it.

To be fair, I didn't say that tanks would render the Helldrakes useless. I know all too well that you can vector strike then flame the contents, but it's far from 100% effective. I'm merely pointing out that it's far easier to fly over a unit and flame grill it when it's footslogging than it is to successfully vector strike a tank, pop it, and then flame grill the soft nougat centre. So the more tanks you have to pop, the less likely it is you'll get to cook anything. It's simple math/probability, but still doable.

My point with IG is that in Tournament play, you'll often see 2-3 Vendettas in a list with Hydras for anti-air. Vendettas vs Helldrakes with baleflamers there's only ever going to be one winner, and it ain't the Helldrakes. That's the one major flaw with Helldrakes if you take baleflamers on them is that other flyers will bring them down without contest. This is why more and more people are taking an allied detachment of IG and stacking Vendettas. They're cheap, effective and durable almost to the point that they're broken.

I would certainly say that enemy flyers and 2+ armor are the biggest issues this list will face. So, any Deathwing Army or GK Terminator army with Flyer support will tear you a new pooper. Fortunately you won't see many of those because they're just not practical for tournament play due to lack of boots on the ground.

Triple Hellturkey lists are certainly something I don't think I could beat in Tournament play with my all comers list unless I managed to massacre you before they arrived from reserve.

I have to disagree that it is a decent list:

Extra lord is superfluous and a waste of points as is taking the mace on him.

Lightening claw chosen are expensive for what they do and your hammer unit massively overkills a PA target but can't crack a 2+ save unit. Then they're easily killed so they have to do their points in damage in one assault and what unit can they beat that is a comparative points value?

Solo landraiders are not a good idea in this edition.

I don't like the MoN marines. Ok against hordes but ill equipped to deal with anything else.

Lascannon havocs are too much of a target, autocannons are better.

I'd swap one of the helldrakes to autocannon to help against other flyers.

3 helldrakes is good. That is the only part of your list that looks remotely efficient.

My only warning is that with so many points it'd up in flyers, they will eventually let you down over the long haul. You will have games where some of them will not be able to come in until late game and it is painful to miss that many points for a large part of the game.

I personally don't like having a third of my army be in reserves.

That daemonic possession on the land raider scares me.
I would hate for it to eat Abbadon before the game begins.

I also agree that you can lose the LC on the chosen. Each chosen gets 5 attacks on the charge, and rerolls 1s to hit and wound against MEQ. That's enough to support Abbadon for whatever he needs to do. If you want to buff them up, add a flamer on each chosen.

Abbadon is your punching force through AP2 armor. He will eat through squads by himself.

Thank you for all the feedback. This is really helpful.

I have run this list about 12 times over the past 2 months. It has been effective against GK, Eldar, vanilla Marines, Tau and IG Infantry, and it has struggled against mobilized IG, Orks, Necrons and Dark Eldar. Don't confuse 'struggled against' with 'lost to,' remember many of the wins come because of points for slay the warlord and first blood. In the game against the Eldar, I managed to lose the CSMs, the Havocs, the Chosen, the LR and 2 of the Heldrakes and still come out on top because of that.

The main thrust of any attack with this list is Abbadon and his buddies in the Land Raider, and this has a tactical impact on games. Most opponents will collapse their forces on the Land Raider after the initial assault. That's why the Black Mace on the CL and the lightning claws on the Chosen are so important, there are times I am fighting 2 or 3 units and need to cause a massive number of wounds while I have everyone there. Otherwise, the Chosen start dying of fast, and Abbadon and the CL will get tarpitted with all the challenges. The key seems to be maintaining a rhythm around wiping out entire units the turn you face them, picking up anything else that comes at you, then moving on quickly to the next set of victims.

Also, the thing about the CL with the Black Mace is that he's there to take on challenges. He tends to win them, and the Cursed special rule tends to cause casualties outside of the challenge. This is a way to mitigate the impact of challenges, by setting him up so he's near a bunch of enemy troops.

Another tactical point about the list is that it is good for the Heldrakes and the Havocs. Just having the LR on the board increases the survivability of the rest of the list, since people are mostly focused on dealing with it and it's occupants. I can't remember anyone scoring a penetrating hit against the thing since I started playing it. When it does die, it's being glanced to death.

That said, the list is not perfect. In response to some of the points:

- Yes, I hate waiting for Heldrakes to arrive. I like the offense when it is there, but would love to put something else up instead of them. I feel lucky when I get 3 rounds of shooting from them.

- Yes, I am scared of tanks with this list. The Havocs have a lot of long range firepower, but they can only shoot one thing at a time. Penetrating hits are anything but guaranteed with 4 lascannons, and there is a player at my club who likes to come in with 6 - 9 Leman Russes. I do not think I have a way to deal with that.

- Yes, I can see how having a second LR on the board would be a huge advantage. I just don't know how to fit it in. Even if I did drop the lightning claws and a Heldrake so I could buy one, I don't know what to put in it. Adding another assault unit doesn't seem to make sense (it can't hope to be as tough as Abbadon and pals), and It's really important to keep the CSMs camped out on objectives.

- Hordes also scare me with this list. I had an Ork player walk around the Land Raider with Nob Bikers and 50+ boys to wipe out the CSMs and Havocs. Baleflamers don't really do too much to bikers, and it's hard to get them all under a template. Also, it's very hard to get 2 shots from a Heldrake on a large mob of boys since you have to move forward the next turn. The list just does not have the firepower to deal with anything that gets past the main thrust of the assault.

I would love to hear people's ideas on how to jigger the list to deal with tanks and hordes. Several variants of this list I have run have included Obliterators, Bikers and Noise Marines. They worked out okay, but forced me to lose things like lightning claws and the CL, which ended up slowing down the assault.

A 600 point deathstar in a single Land Raider, a 5 man unit sporting 5 lascannons, 20 flamer marines on foot and 3 big turkeys in reserve. How this list gets outside its own deployment zone is beyond me.

This is awful. If this is successful, I shudder to think about your opposition.

 Chumbalaya wrote:
A 600 point deathstar in a single Land Raider, a 5 man unit sporting 5 lascannons, 20 flamer marines on foot and 3 big turkeys in reserve. How this list gets outside its own deployment zone is beyond me.

This is awful. If this is successful, I shudder to think about your opposition.

Wow, that was helpful.... /sarcasm.
Seriously man, if you can't think of anything useful to contribute to a thread, why don't you troll somewhere else?


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 techsoldaten wrote:
Yes, I hate waiting for Heldrakes to arrive. I like the offense when it is there, but would love to put something else up instead of them. I feel lucky when I get 3 rounds of shooting from them.

An ADL or bastion with a Comm-Relay unit dramatically decreases the chances of your drakes being stuck in reserve. Without one, you can expect one to stay in reserve on turn two. With one, they are almost always coming in.

As an added bonus, you get an AV 14 shell to wrap around your havocs, making them nearly unkillable.

 techsoldaten wrote:
Yes, I am scared of tanks with this list. The Havocs have a lot of long range firepower, but they can only shoot one thing at a time. Penetrating hits are anything but guaranteed with 4 lascannons, and there is a player at my club who likes to come in with 6 - 9 Leman Russes. I do not think I have a way to deal with that.

The way to take down lots of LRBTs is to get close. Any squad with krak gernades can take down a russ, just rush up with your MEQ and stuff krak gernades down the tailpipe.

 techsoldaten wrote:
Yes, I can see how having a second LR on the board would be a huge advantage. I just don't know how to fit it in. Even if I did drop the lightning claws and a Heldrake so I could buy one, I don't know what to put in it. Adding another assault unit doesn't seem to make sense (it can't hope to be as tough as Abbadon and pals), and It's really important to keep the CSMs camped out on objectives.

CSM land raiders are a love/hate relationship for me.
Their armorment is not geared for assault. The crusader/redeemer is geared for that role. The CSM LR's armorment is for back line support. You stick it somewhere so you can squat near an objective. If you need to move a squad off, you can hop in and drive 18" away with little risk.

 techsoldaten wrote:
Hordes also scare me with this list. I had an Ork player walk around the Land Raider with Nob Bikers and 50+ boys to wipe out the CSMs and Havocs.

Nob bikers hate vector strikes and flamers. If you get all 3 onto one squad, you will pull off a few bikers.

Abbadon will sort them out really quickly though. The trick here is not to get to aggressive. Don't shove abbadon down his throat, but instead keep him back and wait for him to get close.

FlingitNow wrote:I have to disagree that it is a decent list:

Extra lord is superfluous and a waste of points as is taking the mace on him.

Lightening claw chosen are expensive for what they do and your hammer unit massively overkills a PA target but can't crack a 2+ save unit. Then they're easily killed so they have to do their points in damage in one assault and what unit can they beat that is a comparative points value?

Solo landraiders are not a good idea in this edition.

I don't like the MoN marines. Ok against hordes but ill equipped to deal with anything else.

Lascannon havocs are too much of a target, autocannons are better.

I'd swap one of the helldrakes to autocannon to help against other flyers.

3 helldrakes is good. That is the only part of your list that looks remotely efficient.

Chumbalaya wrote:A 600 point deathstar in a single Land Raider, a 5 man unit sporting 5 lascannons, 20 flamer marines on foot and 3 big turkeys in reserve. How this list gets outside its own deployment zone is beyond me.

This is awful. If this is successful, I shudder to think about your opposition.

Kind of agreeing with these 2 here.
Helldrakes ruin anything with a 3+ save, but struggle against hordes/2+ saves.
The death star in the land raider is begging for a meltagun to the face.
How the havocs aren't shot off the board first turn is beyond me.

A balanced list with some mobile melta, some AA power (quad gun/fliers), some mech to hide the squishy troops and some long range fire power *should* decimate this list. That said my £0.02 on the list, I'd want to take 2 squads of havos with 4 autocannons over the 4 with lascannons. I'd also prefer plague marines over MoN marines, but I guess that's off the cards with the MoK lord. Also maybe throw some meltaguns on the chosen incase they want to pop a Land Raider?

 labmouse42 wrote:
Wow, that was helpful.... /sarcasm.
Seriously man, if you can't think of anything useful to contribute to a thread, why don't you troll somewhere else?

It's a fundamentally terrible list. Like, everything about it is bad.

2 crazy expensive characters AND a souped up unit all riding in a single transport. It's the definition of putting your eggs in one basket. Bad.

Only 3 units of Troops comprised of basic marines, statwise. Bad for objectives, which are 5/6 of all missions.

1/4 of the list in reserve, massive overkill on infantry killing.

5 guys with 4 expensive heavy weapons. Between it and the AV14 basket of eggs, there's your 2 main units. Luckily, they go down hard to 2 very different types of shooting that most folks should have in spades.

If CSM wants to pull off a Land Raider list, after asking why, you'd need a total rework. Huron, Infiltrating Terminators in a dedicated Raider, more Terminators or fauxzerkers (CSM w/ MoK, VotLW) in a Heavy Raider. Predators for fire support, presenting more heavy armor. Spawn for another mobile threat. Drakes because Drakes. Troops can be filled up with piles of cultists that nobody cares about. Since this is 2k, you can go double FOC with more Predators/Havocs or throw in some allies: either Necron flyers for anti-air and mobile scoring or Guard for throwing up more AV14 and good scoring.

It's a total rewrite.

 CaptainJay wrote:
A balanced list with some mobile melta, some AA power (quad gun/fliers), some mech to hide the squishy troops and some long range fire power *should* decimate this list. That said my £0.02 on the list, I'd want to take 2 squads of havos with 4 autocannons over the 4 with lascannons. I'd also prefer plague marines over MoN marines, but I guess that's off the cards with the MoK lord. Also maybe throw some meltaguns on the chosen incase they want to pop a Land Raider?

Balanced lists don't work in 6th edition like they did in 5th edition. Extreme lists (wraithwing, Necron flying circus, flamer-screamer spam) are working for a reason. Balanced lists like we saw in 5th edition are getting clobbered by them.

Your correct on these points
* PMs are better than MoN CSM
* 4 ACs are better than 4 LCs in havocs
* Long range shooting should shift off his troops easily.

I don't agree with the need for melta-guns. Most people are not bringing tons of armor like they did in 5th. Were seeing more foot lists than anything else. If he wants to toss someting on his chosen, I would go with flamers.

Actually - @Chumbalaya - in all honestly, I probably would have thought something similar before I started playing this list.

Without saying anything about who I play against, think about the game mechanics here to get some insights into why it's effective. I am not tabling anyone with this list, but I am racking up victory points more efficiently than my opponents in a 5 - 7 round game.

I usually get 8 VPs per game, sometimes more. Typically, opponents only get points for linebreaker, whatever units of mine they can wipe out, and whatever objectives they are holding. But it's often not 8.

This is what I mean:

- There are only 4 units on the board in the first turn. There are never a lot of things for people to shoot at.

- The death star (I hate to call it that) generally wipes out the first unit it charges. I will get first blood and a point for wiping out that unit. It's not uncommon to get slay the warlord as well, and for them to face 2 - 3 units and get additional VPs in the next round of combat.

- The lascannon havocs are being mostly ignored through all this. They are picking off armor throughout the battle. I am getting VPs on each, probably averaging 1 or 2 each game.

- The CSMs are sitting on objectives, netting 1 or 2 additional VPs. They can hold their own against most things, and the things they can't really fight aren't scoring units so it's not a big loss.

- The Heldrakes are usually coming in around turn 3. While they don't really wipe out other units on their own, they are certainly good at softening up things that might be going after the CSMs.

- The Chosen are scoring. I have rushed them to objectives in the last turn to get additional points or deny points to the enemy.

 Chumbalaya wrote:
It's a fundamentally terrible list. Like, everything about it is bad.

Delivery is 50% of your message.
You came out of the gate saying "How this list gets outside its own deployment zone is beyond me. " and "This is awful. If this is successful, I shudder to think about your opposition."

At the start, you inferred to the OP
* You can't even get out of your deployment zone
* Your list making skills are awful
* You play people with no skilset.

Why do you expect people to listen to anything you say after that? Your delivery was so off-putting that the OP will stop paying attention. Its human nature to not listen to people who are insulting you.

 Chumbalaya wrote:
IIt's a total rewrite.

You are correct on the flaws of the list. It would never make it at FoB or NOVA.
However, the OP is not asking for a rewrite. He's said that what his is playing is working for him. He might be playing in a meta thats low on the competitive scale.
Read his responce. Its very well written and thought out. The guy is no dummy, hes probably just new or plays with his friends in his own meta.

That's why I said you were trolling. You dropped in, insulted the OP and did not give any constructive criticism.
In your second post you started explaining in more detail why his list would not work at FoB or NOVA (which is not trolling)

How do 9 csm carry 2 flamers?,
And isnt extra armor and demonic possesion redundant? I would drop the possesion.

labmouse42 wrote:

 CaptainJay wrote:
A balanced list with some mobile melta, some AA power (quad gun/fliers), some mech to hide the squishy troops and some long range fire power *should* decimate this list. That said my £0.02 on the list, I'd want to take 2 squads of havos with 4 autocannons over the 4 with lascannons. I'd also prefer plague marines over MoN marines, but I guess that's off the cards with the MoK lord. Also maybe throw some meltaguns on the chosen incase they want to pop a Land Raider?

Balanced lists don't work in 6th edition like they did in 5th edition. Extreme lists (wraithwing, Necron flying circus, flamer-screamer spam) are working for a reason. Balanced lists like we saw in 5th edition are getting clobbered by them.

Your correct on these points
* PMs are better than MoN CSM
* 4 ACs are better than 4 LCs in havocs
* Long range shooting should shift off his troops easily.

I don't agree with the need for melta-guns. Most people are not bringing tons of armor like they did in 5th. Were seeing more foot lists than anything else. If he wants to toss someting on his chosen, I would go with flamers.

I don't believe meltaguns are dead, yes plasma got a buff but OP's list is a classic example of why melta is still required. Throwing melta guns on the chosen gives them the potential to open a transport and charge the contents, because lets face it they're going to crush whatever they hit anyways, plus it provides a little bit more anti-tank, which while tanks are not as prevalent is still useful. Alternatively its nice to throw some hi strength shooting before charging a harder target (terminators for example).

techsoldaten wrote:Actually - @Chumbalaya - in all honestly, I probably would have thought something similar before I started playing this list.

Without saying anything about who I play against, think about the game mechanics here to get some insights into why it's effective. I am not tabling anyone with this list, but I am racking up victory points more efficiently than my opponents in a 5 - 7 round game.

I usually get 8 VPs per game, sometimes more. Typically, opponents only get points for linebreaker, whatever units of mine they can wipe out, and whatever objectives they are holding. But it's often not 8.

This is what I mean:

- There are only 4 units on the board in the first turn. There are never a lot of things for people to shoot at.

- The death star (I hate to call it that) generally wipes out the first unit it charges. I will get first blood and a point for wiping out that unit. It's not uncommon to get slay the warlord as well, and for them to face 2 - 3 units and get additional VPs in the next round of combat.

- The lascannon havocs are being mostly ignored through all this. They are picking off armor throughout the battle. I am getting VPs on each, probably averaging 1 or 2 each game.

- The CSMs are sitting on objectives, netting 1 or 2 additional VPs. They can hold their own against most things, and the things they can't really fight aren't scoring units so it's not a big loss.

- The Heldrakes are usually coming in around turn 3. While they don't really wipe out other units on their own, they are certainly good at softening up things that might be going after the CSMs.

- The Chosen are scoring. I have rushed them to objectives in the last turn to get additional points or deny points to the enemy.

At OP, 4 units on the 4 board; a LR filled with CC nastiness. 5 Marines with 4 Lascannons, and 2 squads of 9 T5 Marines. You won't get a turn 1 charge unless your opponent thinks charging striaght towards you is a good idea. This means they can fire everything at your 5 man havoc squad unless you hide them out of LOS (possibly behind the LR) which would limit their usefullness.

Turn 2/3 you get a charge with Abbadon + Co, if you hit their HQ you're pretty much guranteed to kill them (unless they refuse) , that however gives 2/3 turns to kill either 5 or 9 marines first for first blood. If I was playing you (C:SM) I'd definitely refuse with my HQ and *hopefully* escape (models in TDA can't sweeping advance), if I do or don't your unit will have probably wiped out whatever they've charged which leaves said unit very vunerable to being shot up (battlecannons, demolishers cannons, plasma cannons, etc) or strike me as things that'll hurt or even just your opponent focus firing on them.

Basically I find it a little surprising that you're getting first blood, and the chosen surviving after they've charged something given what a massive hammer unit they are.