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Alright guys I need some help as I have had multiple answers to this question and just need to get this straight: In 6th edition you can only take half of your units in reserve (rounding up) but in the case of drop pods isnt this different? From the Rulebook and I quote:

"When working out how many units can be placed in reserve, units that must be deployed by Deep Strike (along with any models embarked upon them) are ignored." (pg. 36)

"Likewise, if at the end of any game turn, one player has no models on the battlefield, his opponent automatically wins" (pg. 122)

Now from these quotes I am getting that because Space Marines (besides Black Templars) have the drop pod assault rule which automatically brings in half of their pods on the first turn that I could potentially mount my entire army in drop pods, is this not correct?

That's correct.

That is what I gather, but people tell me that because its not a dedicated transport for that unit (like independant characters) that they cannot be in one and have to be on the board, is that true?

No, anyone boarded on a vehicle that must start in reserves counts as must start in reserves.
Otherwise only units that must start in reserves could ever be boarded on a drop pod. Strikes me as ridiculous that anyone would even claim that it is so.

edit:
After reading through the rules with a more scrutinous eye, I'll admit it is not what I thought. The unit you embark on the pod counts towards the amount of units held in reserves, so you need *something* on the board in order to keep a unit n the pod. You can stll have anything drop with it that can embark on it, but for counting how many units can stay in reserves, the unit you embark on the drop pod does take up a count.

I know that what you describe was a common tactic in Ed 5, but it seems to me that they have lawyered it out of 6th.

page 124, bottom left.

...the player must specify if any units in reserve are embarked upon any Transport vehicles in reserve, in which case they arrive together

With the context (which is too long to fully quote) I read that as the reserve accounting being done in two phases.
Phase one: count every unit. Pods don't count towards this total, but any warrior unit does. Half of this amount must stay on the board.
Phase two: Place your Independant characters in the units you want them in, and embark your units upon any vehicles.

Go and re read the deep strike rules as it specifies units embarked in a vehicle that MUST deploy via deep strike do not count towards working out the number of units to be deployed

You are right, what I concluded above only seems to apply for things that are reserves but not deep strike, while deep strike states that units are not counted if embarked.

That makes it clear that the original assessment was correct. you can still drop your whole army in pods, but it also makes an inconsistency between deep striking units and mere reserves that I find to be yet another annoyance from GW.

 Purifier wrote:
You are right, what I concluded above only seems to apply for things that are reserves but not deep strike, while deep strike states that units are not counted if embarked.

That makes it clear that the original assessment was correct. you can still drop your whole army in pods, but it also makes an inconsistency between deep striking units and mere reserves that I find to be yet another annoyance from GW.

I'm confused....what inconsistency?

They way I read it, if it has the rule that it MUST deep strike, then a unit with an IC and the pod itself all don't count towards how many can be in reserves. So they're all "counted together"

While if you only reserve a unit, then the ship has no effect on the count.

If you take a stormraven gunship with a unit containing an IC and a dread at the back, you have to count that as 4 reserve units, 1 ship, 1 IC, 1 unit and 1 dread.

I've seen lots of people try to count that gang as 1 unit for the purposes of how many can be kept in reserve, so I know it confuses.

The idea that the embarked units are a part of the whole transfers from one type to the other. But they are in fact two very separate ideas.
Unless the craft must deep strike, they are not a part of a whole.

 Purifier wrote:
They way I read it, if it has the rule that it MUST deep strike, then a unit with an IC and the pod itself all don't count towards how many can be in reserves. So they're all "counted together"

While if you only reserve a unit, then the ship has no effect on the count.

If you take a stormraven gunship with a unit containing an IC and a dread at the back, you have to count that as 4 reserve units, 1 ship, 1 IC, 1 unit and 1 dread.

I've seen lots of people try to count that gang as 1 unit for the purposes of how many can be kept in reserve, so I know it confuses.

The idea that the embarked units are a part of the whole transfers from one type to the other. But they are in fact two very separate ideas.
Unless the craft must deep strike, they are not a part of a whole.

The Stormraven is a flyer and therefore must be taken in reserve correct? If that's the case, then anything embarked on it wouldn't count towards the limit right?

Curious....

Ok so... this is confusing me, I had never used this tactic.. but it looks like the funniest thing

5 pods, 3 dreads in them
2 stormravens, 2 dreads

4 units total, like 5 IC (counting blood priestst, aint hard)

I wanted to add some vanguard veterans... thinking "both the stormravens and the podS MUST stay "in the air" so I dont have to deploy

Im sure that I can play it with friends, its not abusive, its fun as hell... now... is it torney legal?

 NickTheButcher wrote:

 Purifier wrote:
They way I read it, if it has the rule that it MUST deep strike, then a unit with an IC and the pod itself all don't count towards how many can be in reserves. So they're all "counted together"

While if you only reserve a unit, then the ship has no effect on the count.

If you take a stormraven gunship with a unit containing an IC and a dread at the back, you have to count that as 4 reserve units, 1 ship, 1 IC, 1 unit and 1 dread.

I've seen lots of people try to count that gang as 1 unit for the purposes of how many can be kept in reserve, so I know it confuses.

The idea that the embarked units are a part of the whole transfers from one type to the other. But they are in fact two very separate ideas.
Unless the craft must deep strike, they are not a part of a whole.

The Stormraven is a flyer and therefore must be taken in reserve correct? If that's the case, then anything embarked on it wouldn't count towards the limit right?

Curious....

Well, this again is where I get mad at the rules as nothing is ever in one spot But as far as I can tell so far, it's only if it's forced to DEEP STRIKE that it all counts as one, and since the raven is only forced to RESERVE but MAY deep strike, it would count each separately. I would love to see this contradicted, of course, but that's how I read it right now.

 Purifier wrote:

 NickTheButcher wrote:

 Purifier wrote:
They way I read it, if it has the rule that it MUST deep strike, then a unit with an IC and the pod itself all don't count towards how many can be in reserves. So they're all "counted together"

While if you only reserve a unit, then the ship has no effect on the count.

If you take a stormraven gunship with a unit containing an IC and a dread at the back, you have to count that as 4 reserve units, 1 ship, 1 IC, 1 unit and 1 dread.

I've seen lots of people try to count that gang as 1 unit for the purposes of how many can be kept in reserve, so I know it confuses.

The idea that the embarked units are a part of the whole transfers from one type to the other. But they are in fact two very separate ideas.
Unless the craft must deep strike, they are not a part of a whole.

The Stormraven is a flyer and therefore must be taken in reserve correct? If that's the case, then anything embarked on it wouldn't count towards the limit right?

Curious....

Well, this again is where I get mad at the rules as nothing is ever in one spot But as far as I can tell so far, it's only if it's forced to DEEP STRIKE that it all counts as one, and since the raven is only forced to RESERVE but MAY deep strike, it would count each separately. I would love to see this contradicted, of course, but that's how I read it right now.

Well, pg. 124 under "Preparing Reserves"

'W'hen
deploying their armies, players can choose not to deploy
up to half of their units (rounding up) keeping them as Reserves
to arrive later. Units that must start the game in reserve are
ignored for the pulposes of working out how many other units
may do so. A unit and its Dedicated Transport are counted as a
single unit for these purposes. Independent Characters are also
counted as a single unit regardless of whether they have joined
another unit or not. During deployment, when declaring which
units are kept as Reserves, the player must clearly explain the
organisation of his Reserves to the opponent.

That tells us that the Stormraven isn't counted since it's a flyer and must be taken in reserve. Deep Strike is irrelevant in that case IMO.

Didn't the FAQ clarify a lot of that?

rigeld2 wrote:
Didn't the FAQ clarify a lot of that?

It did indeed - if you are forced to start in reserve, then not only does the vehicle / model not count towards the limit, but neither does anything embarked.

 NickTheButcher wrote:

 Purifier wrote:

 NickTheButcher wrote:

 Purifier wrote:
They way I read it, if it has the rule that it MUST deep strike, then a unit with an IC and the pod itself all don't count towards how many can be in reserves. So they're all "counted together"

While if you only reserve a unit, then the ship has no effect on the count.

If you take a stormraven gunship with a unit containing an IC and a dread at the back, you have to count that as 4 reserve units, 1 ship, 1 IC, 1 unit and 1 dread.

I've seen lots of people try to count that gang as 1 unit for the purposes of how many can be kept in reserve, so I know it confuses.

The idea that the embarked units are a part of the whole transfers from one type to the other. But they are in fact two very separate ideas.
Unless the craft must deep strike, they are not a part of a whole.

The Stormraven is a flyer and therefore must be taken in reserve correct? If that's the case, then anything embarked on it wouldn't count towards the limit right?

Curious....

Well, this again is where I get mad at the rules as nothing is ever in one spot But as far as I can tell so far, it's only if it's forced to DEEP STRIKE that it all counts as one, and since the raven is only forced to RESERVE but MAY deep strike, it would count each separately. I would love to see this contradicted, of course, but that's how I read it right now.

Well, pg. 124 under "Preparing Reserves"

'W'hen
deploying their armies, players can choose not to deploy
up to half of their units (rounding up) keeping them as Reserves
to arrive later. Units that must start the game in reserve are
ignored for the pulposes of working out how many other units
may do so. A unit and its Dedicated Transport are counted as a
single unit for these purposes. Independent Characters are also
counted as a single unit regardless of whether they have joined
another unit or not. During deployment, when declaring which
units are kept as Reserves, the player must clearly explain the
organisation of his Reserves to the opponent.

That tells us that the Stormraven isn't counted since it's a flyer and must be taken in reserve. Deep Strike is irrelevant in that case IMO.

That would only mean the ship itself wasn't counted. You'd still have 3 units in the example I gave.

If it was FAQ'ed however, I've simply glazed over that.

I was trying to teach a man to fish but...

GW BRB FAQ Page 8 wrote:Q: Do units that are transported in a vehicle that MUST start in
reserve count towards the number of units that can be placed in
Reserves? For example, must I count the units in a Drop Pod or
Valkyrie towards the 50% of units I can place in Reserves? (p124)
A: No.

So if for example, my army is entirely Grey Hunters, and every unit has a drop pod, could I start with my army entirely off the board?

Yes

rigeld2 wrote:
I was trying to teach a man to fish but...

GW BRB FAQ Page 8 wrote:Q: Do units that are transported in a vehicle that MUST start in
reserve count towards the number of units that can be placed in
Reserves? For example, must I count the units in a Drop Pod or
Valkyrie towards the 50% of units I can place in Reserves? (p124)
A: No.

Whoops that answers my question


Automatically Appended Next Post:

rigeld2 wrote:
Yes

You ninja-ed me.

ok just to clarify, point by point

its in the FAQ that every unit efectively enbarked in a vehicle in the reserve STAYS in the reserve

if a vehicle is forced to stay in reserve its asigned unit AND everyting else inbarked DONT count towards limits in reserves

thus you can still full Pod your army and or Full Flay your army... gosh... Flayerwing is back... just when I thought ther HAD to deply something and if blower away you "could" win

Reading the Reserves rules you'll read that permission is given to Dedicated Transports that doesn't necessarily extend to just Transports. Which is something that players will use to argue against it.

p.124
Units that must start the game in reserve are ignored for the purposes of working out how many other units may (be in reserve). A unit and it's Dedicated Transport count as a single unit for these purposes.

No permission is given to exempt non-dedicated Transports from this. Following the process it's not difficult to sort out what units can or cannot go into reserve. When deploying your army, just put (not deploy) all the units that would normally deploy on the table,and everything that must be in reserve off to the side. Now you can choose to take up to 1/2 of those units (rounding up) and place them in reserve. Once there they have the option to embark on any Non-Dedicated Transport, which would cover the Stormraven (which must be in reserve). Those who attempt to put units in the Stormraven, will either say that it happens before deployment, or that the rules grant them sufficient permission to deploy the units on a Transport when the game starts, so couldn't count toward the limit. The FAQ attempted to address this, but failed to mention Transports differently from Dedicated Transports. (Note: They might have, I just don't know if Valkyries mentioned can/are taken as Dedicated Transports. I only have Drop Pods so haven't looked into it much beyond how the rule applies to me.)

A second problem exists with Independent Characters

Independent Characters are also counted as a single unit regardless of of whether they have joined a unit or not.

So in an all Drop Pod army, none of the Infantry units don't count if taking a Drop Pod, but the IC's still count. This means that if you take 2 HQ's in an all Drop Pod army your opponent could force you to put one of them on the table. This would also apply if you take an HQ with an HQ squad and you bought a Drop Pod for that squad. Like a Command squad for example, unless permission is given by the codex to override this like 'retinues', the Reserves rule could still apply to them.

Similarly, the player must specify if any units in reserve are embarked upon any Transport vehicles in reserve, in which case they will arrive together.

I never understood how this got applied to whether or not the units in non-dedicated transports counted toward the limit or not. It's not mentioned, and the the qualifiers for which units that can be in reserve has already been covered.

What this does state is simply, that players must inform their opponents what's in the vehicles. Marines have the option to take Drop Pods, and still deploy the squad so the player would have to let his opponent know that it's empty. Necron players can take a Nightscythe for Deathmarks, but can still Deep Strike the Deathmarks and have an empty flyer come in. The point is that GW wants you to pick and commit to what you're doing, instead of picking which would be best based on how the fight is going. No more 'Oh, my Terminators were in Deep Strike reserve, and not in the Land Raiders you just blew up!', that used to exist in the last edition.

Independent Characters must also be declared which units they have joined so that they arrive together. Space Wolf Drop Pod players will remember when they had to roll separately for their HQ's, and hope that they arrived at the same time with a Drop Pod that had room for them. That's the reason that part exists, and no mention is made of them overriding them counting toward the reserve limit when deploying reserves.

the last point you quote is the crack in the rules that let you not deploy

its "not" in reserves it just comes inside the Stormraven... which will come from the reserves

you have depoyed it... inside your flayer/pod not in the reserves themselves.

I know that's the appearance of it, but as it's not a Dedicated Transport the units inside still count toward the limit. Since they do count toward the limit, then they should have a unit on the table allowing them to be there in the first place, since joining units like this to arrive together is done when deploying forces.

Akar wrote:I know that's the appearance of it, but as it's not a Dedicated Transport the units inside still count toward the limit. Since they do count toward the limit, then they should have a unit on the table allowing them to be there in the first place, since joining units like this to arrive together is done when deploying forces.

rigeld2 wrote:I was trying to teach a man to fish but...

GW BRB FAQ Page 8 wrote:Q: Do units that are transported in a vehicle that MUST start in
reserve count towards the number of units that can be placed in
Reserves? For example, must I count the units in a Drop Pod or
Valkyrie towards the 50% of units I can place in Reserves? (p124)
A: No.

Your assumption is incorrect given the FAQ quote I posted in the thread. Even a non dedicated Transport (see how they use the example of a Valkyrie?) is not counted.

@Akar

rigeld2 is right you dont have to deploy anything on the ground given the right circumstances:

the steps would be as follow:

you take apart whatever doesnt count, unitits that MUST be in reserve, dedicated transports and their units, and flyers

then take the rest, including IC, you can deply them all on the ground, you HAVE to deploy half
the thing is that you can deploy them inside the flying vehicle!!! they ARE deplyed, not in reserves, but they are inside the vehicle, not on the grownd, just like you would do with your average tank or truck or whatever, you deply inside, wherever the vehicle is.

What I am confused about is independent characters. If all your models must start in resreve and you have 2 independent characters one of them must start on the board?

Mjölnyr wrote:
then take the rest, including IC, you can deply them all on the ground, you HAVE to deploy half
the thing is that you can deploy them inside the flying vehicle!!! they ARE deplyed, not in reserves, but they are inside the vehicle, not on the grownd, just like you would do with your average tank or truck or whatever, you deply inside, wherever the vehicle is.

That's not the reading I get from the FAQ. I read it as them also not being counted at all if they are embarked.

It makes quite a difference, as the way you read it, it helps keep MORE units off the field.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Niiai wrote:
What I am confused about is independent characters. If all your models must start in resreve and you have 2 independent characters one of them must start on the board?

No, but they count as one unit each just like any other unit, even if they are later set as a part of another unit. (unless of course they are embarked, as shown by the FAQ that would mean they don't count towards anything)

rigeld2 wrote:
I was trying to teach a man to fish but...

GW BRB FAQ Page 8 wrote:Q: Do units that are transported in a vehicle that MUST start in
reserve count towards the number of units that can be placed in
Reserves? For example, must I count the units in a Drop Pod or
Valkyrie towards the 50% of units I can place in Reserves? (p124)
A: No.

If everyone agrees this is the rule, then there should be no confusion. As long as the vehicle MUST start in reserve, whatever that vehicle is and whatever is inside it does not count towards the 50% max that supposed to be placed in reserves.

Ok, from what has been gathered in this thread, here's an example.

your army is:
Warlord (ic)
Champion (ic)
Space Marines Squad
Special Weapons Squad
Heavy Weapons Squad
Jump Pack Squad
Dreadnought
Drop Pod
Stormraven

Right, so you decide to place:
Warlord
Special Weapons Squad
Dreadnought
in the Stormraven

That means since it's a flyer, that is all placed aside and not counted.

You place Space Marine Squad in your drop pod. Since it must deepstrike, again, you take it aside.

Now you have a Heavy Weapons Squad, an IC Champion and a jump pack squad left.

That's 3 units, even if you want to field the Heavy Weapons and Champon together and roll for the reserve roll together, at this point they still count as 2 units, rounding up you can reserve 2.

Please correct me with rules quotes if you believe this example to be flawed.

Valkyries are Fast Attack, not dedicated transports, so the FAQ seems clear that any units/ICs embarked on any vehicles that must start in reserve simply do not count toward the 50% rule.

I think the net of this is yes, you can tailor your army list such that your entire force starts in reserve.