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So, I've had a search through the forums but don't think this has been covered. Had a game today where my Necron Overlord went up against a Chaos Lord with the Black Mace. The lord failed his test and ended up hitting his own squad of plague marines, killing one of them.

The question is, does the black maces effect now hit the remainder of the plague marine squad, or does it hit the necron overlord?

The arguement comes down to MSS saying that all abilities are used on special weapons and the Black Mace saying that all ENEMY units within 3" take a test.

Hmmm, given the specific wording on the Black Mace it would only effect the Necrons with its extra wounds thing.

If it said the unit attacked by the Mace took the test it would effect the PMs.

RAW this is a problem. You can cause wounds on chaos models but at the end of the phase have the necron unit take toughness tests and losing models. I would propose to handle it in 2 ways
1. The Chaos unit takes the T tests because that is the unit that suffered the wounds.
2. No unit takes T tests because the BM effect is made to affect enemy units.

I would choose 2 because it is a more neutral solution.

The PM should suffer the effects of the Black Mace.

For that round, the wielders enemy is the unit it attacked and so that "enemy" unit should suffer the effects of the Mace.

That is HIWPI anyway.

Another interesting question would be, does it get the D6 extra attacks as well?

Except there is no rules for the PMs being the enemy unit for those purposes.

 Grey Templar wrote:
Except there is no rules for the PMs being the enemy unit for those purposes.

where in the BRB is "Enemy" defined?

40k-noob wrote:
The PM should suffer the effects of the Black Mace.

For that round, the wielders enemy is the unit it attacked and so that "enemy" unit should suffer the effects of the Mace.

That is HIWPI anyway.

Another interesting question would be, does it get the D6 extra attacks as well?

We agreed that you don't, as the rules for MSS state that you get D3 hits, and the extra effects of the weapon. you don't roll to hit.

SIhsboy wrote:

40k-noob wrote:
The PM should suffer the effects of the Black Mace.

For that round, the wielders enemy is the unit it attacked and so that "enemy" unit should suffer the effects of the Mace.

That is HIWPI anyway.

Another interesting question would be, does it get the D6 extra attacks as well?

We agreed that you don't, as the rules for MSS state that you get D3 hits, and the extra effects of the weapon. you don't roll to hit.

ah yes, forgot about that. That would be nasty though if it was allowed.

Wasn't there a challenge issued?

If the Necrons charged then they can have the MSS go before issuing challenges.

Either way unfortunately due to the order of operations, MSS ends once all the attacks at init 1 have been concluded and the BM Curse happens at the end of the phase, the Necrons would still have to take the Toughness test.

Gravmyr, you are implying that the effects of MSS ends after init 1, and not at some other arbitrary point after combat, like the end of the phase. This is not necessarily true. The end of MSS and the Black Mace effect could happen simultaneously, and the active player would get to choose the order.

Were I the TO, I would go with copper.talos on this one, just because the relationship between the two effects isn't clear. When things aren't clear, do the least harm.

The effects of mss end immediately after all blow have been struck so the effect would go off. And normally I am for fair play but since I hate MSS with a passion due to all the necron players in my LGG I am more than happy to make them take the test.

Except it is clear. Once all the blows have been struck there are still things you need to do such as calculate the winner of the combat and possibly roll a moral check. You then move onto any other combats. After all combats have been resolved then the phase ends. There are clearly steps between the two so the resolution of all blows precedes the end of the phase.

Mindshackle Scarabs don't change the "alignment" of the affected model. You simply resolve their Attacks against friendly models. As such, they don't switch sides and thus the effect should still affect the Necrons and not the Plague Marines.

Where this gets into sticky water, is a point well raised by 40k-noob above. ...exactly where *IS* enemy defined?!

The mace kills the necrons. Does it make sense? No. But I too hate MSS with a passion and any way to make it screw me over less is good.

The only way to define enemy models in this game is to say that the models controlled by your opponent are enemy models. That being said, while under the effect of MSS a model is under the control of the Necron player. If the Mace activated at the time all blows were struck with it it would affect the unit to which the wielder belonged to originally. Since it activates at the end of phase control of the wielder has returned to the owner and it affects the Necrons.

Black mace happens at the end of the phase. This shouldn't be in question. If model dies in a phase from black mace all enemy with 3" take test. Plague marines aren't enemies.

It is possible that you can still kill more necrons than plague marines in the OP's example by using MSS.

 Gravmyr wrote:
The only way to define enemy models in this game is to say that the models controlled by your opponent are enemy models. That being said, while under the effect of MSS a model is under the control of the Necron player. If the Mace activated at the time all blows were struck with it it would affect the unit to which the wielder belonged to originally. Since it activates at the end of phase control of the wielder has returned to the owner and it affects the Necrons.

Actually, the rules for MSS specifically state the victim strikes at his allies, so no, it doesn't turn the victim's squad into enemy models, nor do the rules state the Necron player gains control of the victim. So my interpretation matches the others, the Black Mace goes off against the Necrons.

While on the subject of MSS, are they able to be used in subsequent rounds of the same combat? From the way the rule is written, it seems that they only kick in on the first round when the charge is made, and end once all blows in the combat round are struck. Can anybody clarify that? The last time I had to deal with them, I had to test every round, which is just ridiculously potent for Necrons.

I think you are missing my point. I have never said the Black Mace hits anyone besides the Necrons. I have simply pointed out all the reasons it hits them. The model is under your control despite it hitting it's allies. They are still allies but the Necron player does control him for the combat. As for the Necron not controlling the subject of MSS please explain why the last sentence says "If he is still alive, the victim returns to the owning player’s control once all blows in that round of combat have been struck." Edit: Also who chooses what combat choices are made during the round for the model under the effects of MSS?

My comment about enemy models was in reference to the question posed earlier about the definition of enemy models.

Secondly yes it can be used at the start of all combat rounds. MSS was written in an older codex and even with the update they included older wording. The Fight sub-phase happen whether or not any charges are declared.

 Gravmyr wrote:


Secondly yes it can be used at the start of all combat rounds. MSS was written in an older codex and even with the update they included older wording. The Fight sub-phase happen whether or not any charges are declared.

Actually, the rule I was referencing is the rewrite in the FAQ, not the old 5th edition codex, and the FAQ states to replace the 2nd paragraph with the new write up which uses the new terminology.


Oh, and yes, I did misunderstand your original point about the black mace, sorry about that.

Kevlar wrote:The mace kills the necrons. Does it make sense? No. But I too hate MSS with a passion and any way to make it screw me over less is good.

krazykishere wrote:The effects of mss end immediately after all blow have been struck so the effect would go off. And normally I am for fair play but since I hate MSS with a passion due to all the necron players in my LGG I am more than happy to make them take the test.

That's some really useful rules interpretations there, guys. Way to make YMDC awesome.

I'm generally with copper.talos on this one as well, simply because 'enemy' is not clearly defined in the BRB to mean 'opposing army's unit', and therefore could just as easily be interpreted as 'target of attacks'.

From what I've read in this thread about MindShackleScarabs, that piece of wargear does not make the shacklee consider his own or normally friendly units to be enemies for the phase in which he becomes shackled. If the word 'enemy' is not in the MSS rule, then Necrons eat the Curse. It doesn't matter how the BRB defines 'enemy' if the MSS rule doesn't say 'enemy'.

However, if the Black Mace user has Allies of Convenience/Desperation within 3" of him after being MindShackled and causes an unsaved wound, then the Mace-dude's Allies would be taking T tests (bad news for Imperial Guard Allies).

 azazel the cat wrote:
I'm generally with copper.talos on this one as well, simply because 'enemy' is not clearly defined in the BRB to mean 'opposing army's unit', and therefore could just as easily be interpreted as 'target of attacks'.

So whenever you see two possible interpretations for a rule, you pick one that the favours army you play? That is ... interesting viewpoint, but obviously shared by copper.talos. Personally, whenever I think there are two equally valid interpretations, I always choose the one that gives me less advantage, but I guess that's just me.

And BRB does use that word 'enemy' consistently to mean "opposing army unit/model". While in some cases, it is also used as "target of shooting/melee attack", that is only because the rules assume that you may only attack "enemy" (=opposing army) units. But it is pretty obvious that it cannot be interpreted globally to mean "target of ones attacks". Unless you want to argue that I can move within 1" of any opposing army unit, as long as I don't plan on shooting at it...

But that doesn't matter, as the 3" Black Mace special rule is not dependent on the target of the original attack at all.
In addition, at the end of a phase in which the Black Mace causes one or more unsaved Wounds, all non·vehicle enemy models within 3" of the bearer, which haven't suffered an unsaved Wound from the Black Mace this phase, must take a Toughness Test. (C:CSM, page 69)
For your viewpoint to be valid, the rule would have to say "causes one or more unsaved Wounds to the enemy", which it doesn't. Trying to use the "enemy=target of this attack/special rule" fails badly for pretty obvious reasons when you read the actual rule.

I can't think of any weapon/ability to have a description such as "causes one or more unsaved Wounds to the enemy". It is considered redundant since in 99.99% of unsaved wounds are caused to the enemy.

copper.talos wrote:
I can't think of any weapon/ability to have a description such as "causes one or more unsaved Wounds to the enemy". It is considered redundant since in 99.99% of unsaved wounds are caused to the enemy.

The only thing you can do extra with the mace is inflict instant death on a toughness test. That is it. I am a necron player as well and love my already OP MSS. I wouldn't try to get more out of them that is easily not intended. In lame's terms play by the rules provided and try to deliberately or otherwise accidentally bend them to your favor.

In addition, at the end of a phase in which the Black Mace causes one or more unsaved Wounds, all non·vehicle enemy models within 3" of the bearer, which haven't suffered an unsaved Wound from the Black Mace this phase, must take a Toughness Test. (C:CSM,

If you are arguing your not the enemy then I can never target you... ever.