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I have 1ksons but I dont like having a lvl sorc. I also have kzerkers but I also dont like how they cant take anti armor weapons. Therefore I plan on repainting my kzerkers and 1ksons into regular CSM or just proxy them as regular marines. I also want to field as many strong scoring units as possible.

HQ: Daemon Prince, MoT, Wings, Burning Brand of Skalathrax-230

or Chaos Lord, LC, manning ADL+Quad Gun, with 10 cultist-230

or Fabius Bile-165 (Joins CSM squad to give them fearless while also buffing a different squad as Enhanced Warriors giving +1 Strength and Fearless)
plus Chaos Lord-65 (joins another CSM squad to give them fearless)= 230

Troops:

CSM+5, 9 ccw, PG, LC, Champ w/ Melta bomb, MoT-218
CSM+5, 9 ccw, PG, LC, Champ w/ Melta bomb, MoT-218
CSM+5, 9 ccw, PG, LC, Champ w/ Melta bomb, MoT-218
CSM+5, 9 ccw, PG, LC, Champ w/ Melta bomb, MoT-218
CSM+5, 9 ccw, PG, LC, Champ w/ Melta bomb, MoT-218
(PG=Plasma Gun, LC=Lascannon)
total=1090

Hell Drake, Bale Flamer-170

total=1490pts

250pts expansion to 1750
Havocs, 4 autocannons, MoT-125
Havocs, 4 autocannons, MoT-125

250pts expansion 2000
5 Rhinos for any 10men squads. The ones carrying an HQ will just march behind one. -175
Predator tank-75

I would like ideas on how to make this more competitive with out using plague marines. If you suggest 1 or 2 more Hell drakes then please suggest what to take out. I see that if add another Hell Drake, then I would drop all hq choices and just take a Sorc. without any upgrades. As you can see I tried to make as many squads fearless with out spending 125pts. Should I just use 2 Chaos Lords and spend 75pts to get 3 Icon of Vengeance?

I hope to march these 5 squads across the board and snap fire that lascannon and shoot off plasma guns and bolters at 24". According to some one on this forum, I can shoot an enemy squad 48" with the lascannon and also fire off all other weapons. I think this is completely false, but if it is true then Awesome!

I would like to know which of the HQ choices is the best regardless of meta. After that I would like to know if I should just opt for something else.

ok...I thought MoT would give my CSM a 5++ invul save.
I could have sworn it did in 5th and continued in 6th. The CSM squads went from 33.33% survival from Ap3 to 16.66%. There has to be a way give these guys a higher invul save.

Some guy was using a feel no pain save even when I shot his orks with Ap2 plasma guns. If he is right then I can give them MoS and IoE. However, that is a huge point sink so I will just stick to rhinos.

HQ:
-Chaos Lord, Melta bomb-70
(He will foot slog with a squad behind a rhino)

Troop:
-CSM+5, flamer, LC, Champ w/ Melta Bomb, Rhino, HML-217x5=1085

Fast attack:
-Hell Drake,BF-170
-Hell Drake,BF-170

Did they make the Hell Drake cost more?

Indeed MoT will give your regular marines 6+ Inv which I don't think is really that good. MoT however is quite good if you already have an Inv save, as it increases that. So for example Terminators benefit greatly from it.

If you want survivability, you have to go for either MoN or MoS + IoE.

Have you considered Noise Marines? As they already come with MoS and fearless, and can get very nasty weapons to form a solid troop choice (if you lord has MoS).

How does 1ksons get aura of dark glory?

 Filch wrote:
How does 1ksons get aura of dark glory?

What do you mean? They can't.

westiebestie wrote:

 Filch wrote:
How does 1ksons get aura of dark glory?

What do you mean? They can't.

Thousand Sons do indeed have an Aura of Dark Glory. I think the confusion arose from the question being nonsensical - there's not so much of a "how" they have a AoDG - they just do.

 Filch wrote:

Some guy was using a feel no pain save even when I shot his orks with Ap2 plasma guns. If he is right then I can give them MoS and IoE. However, that is a huge point sink so I will just stick to rhinos.

In 6th ed, the only way to avoid FNP is a wound that causes Instant Death. In addition, it is now a 5+ standard instead of a 4+.

I would highly recommend Thousand Sons instead of regular CSM if you are going to a MoT theme. 3+ armour, 4+ inv, with AP 3 bolters is pretty tough to beat. For and giggles, try to roll the sorcerer's power for Gift of Mutation, which can result in some fun buffs for 1W character that always have to accepts challenges.

Even better, if you run Thousand Sons, take a sorcerer or two for your HQ, raise their mastery level so they can roll on the Biomancy table. If they can get Endurance, you cast it on your Thousand Sons (or Termies) to give them FNP.

 Filch wrote:
ok...I thought MoT would give my CSM a 5++ invul save.
I could have sworn it did in 5th and continued in 6th. The CSM squads went from 33.33% survival from Ap3 to 16.66%. There has to be a way give these guys a higher invul save.

Some guy was using a feel no pain save even when I shot his orks with Ap2 plasma guns. If he is right then I can give them MoS and IoE. However, that is a huge point sink so I will just stick to rhinos.

HQ:
-Chaos Lord, Melta bomb-70
(He will foot slog with a squad behind a rhino)

Troop:
-CSM+5, flamer, LC, Champ w/ Melta Bomb, Rhino, HML-217x5=1085

Fast attack:
-Hell Drake,BF-170
-Hell Drake,BF-170

Did they make the Hell Drake cost more?

The problem with this list is that you're spending too many points on your troop choices and they are do not bring enough killing power. The chaos book ends up in a way that the heavy support and fast attack has all the units that bring the most efficient killing power. You already concede that point with the inclusion of the two heldrakes.

If you look at the damage the damage output from your 1000+ points of troops it's 40 bolters, 5 lascannons, 5 flamers and the 5 havoc launchers. If you're driving up the field the lascannons are snap shooting so you're maybe landing 1 lascannon hit a turn. So while you're trying to get somewhere you have 1000 points of your list doing absolutely nothing. In return your rhinos are getting shot up, which separates your troops from each other. The other thing that is happening is that you're getting stuck in the wrecks of your rhinos in perfect formation to be baleflamed, battle cannoned, blast mastered or hit with any other type of blast weapon that ignores your armor. The other issue is that csm are not fearless. One of the annoying things about regular space marines is that they are a T4 3+ save unit that needs to be killed to the man or else they can still score. CSM have the T4 3+ save, but you need to get lucky to actually use the whole squad of bodies. Otherwise they might run off and your opponent no longer has to worry about them.

If you're going to use rhinos, you have to use them as a defensive weapon now. Stick small squads into them and put the rhinos behind a defense line. This will prevent your troops from getting shot to pieces from the get go and keep the rhinos alive long enough that you could perhaps get first blood even if you go second.

My current idea is to use noise marines as they are the cheapest fearless unit in the CSM book. Give them blast masters and stick them behind an aegis and some cultists and then shoot at the enemy while ignoring all cover. If you look around the forums, there are not that many ideas about what to do with CSM troops. A lot of people are just trying to figure out how to spend the fewest amount of points on troops to spend more points on heavy support and heldrakes.

I wonder if my opponent would let me proxy all my lascannon as blast masters. And pretend all my plasma and flamers are sonic blasters.

I am being stubborn. I suffered from having too few MSU and lost objectives. I sought to increase my body count and to take n hold objectives. It seems as though I have to play plague marines. I feel like I am going in circles. I am going to adjust my list to the comments.

Lord, MoK, LClaw+ melta bomb-100
9 KB, Melta bomb+ LClaw champ, rhino, combi-melta-251

10 KB, Melta Bomb+ LClaw champ, rhino, combi-melta-270

10 CSM, Flamer, LC, melta bomb, MoT-180

10 Cultist-50 (reserves)

2 Helldrake, BF-340

Havoc, 4 AC-115
Defiler-195



Automatically Appended Next Post:
I also plan on a noise marine list when I have time


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Or I split the 2 squads of khorne into 4.

5 KB, Melta Bomb, rhino, combi melta-155
5 KB, melta bomb, rhino, combi melta-155
5 KB, Melta bomb, rhino, combi melta-155
5 KB, Melta bomb-110

10CSM, Flamer, LC, MoT-175



Automatically Appended Next Post:
Dropping cultist

 Commissar Typhus wrote:

 Filch wrote:

Some guy was using a feel no pain save even when I shot his orks with Ap2 plasma guns. If he is right then I can give them MoS and IoE. However, that is a huge point sink so I will just stick to rhinos.

In 6th ed, the only way to avoid FNP is a wound that causes Instant Death. In addition, it is now a 5+ standard instead of a 4+.

I would highly recommend Thousand Sons instead of regular CSM if you are going to a MoT theme. 3+ armour, 4+ inv, with AP 3 bolters is pretty tough to beat. For and giggles, try to roll the sorcerer's power for Gift of Mutation, which can result in some fun buffs for 1W character that always have to accepts challenges.

Even better, if you run Thousand Sons, take a sorcerer or two for your HQ, raise their mastery level so they can roll on the Biomancy table. If they can get Endurance, you cast it on your Thousand Sons (or Termies) to give them FNP.

You are quite right, I missed that thouroughly. So with Aura + MoT they have a 4+ Inv, which makes them pretty great in my book.

Filch: Regarding your lists with 5 x 10 CSM, I think you will spend alot of time where 9 of them do nothing, just the 10th firing a lascannon. I suggest dropping down to 2 x 10 CSM with pg, LC, changing two of them to 2 x 7 Thousand sons (for fearless + Inv). This gives you four strong scoring units, two of which are fearless.

The last one I would exchange for something pure Anti-tank, such as a havoc squad.

http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/506389.page#5280069

According to Labmouse45, a 48" weapon allows all shorter range gun to also wound 48"

I dont like sorc or pyschic powers. I usually fail leadership test to use it. I prefer a lascannon over any psychic power. However I dont like putting all my lascannons in one squad to be easilly butchered.

I listened to the idea of small units in rhinos, I chose to fill them with KB because they could still strike at i4 with 20 hits from 5 bodies. 5 more for each pistol. I tought they could fill the melee gap tzeench has and also act as a counter assault unit. Both KB and 1Ksons are great at killing MEq so it seems redundant.

for anti tank I prefer pred with LC Sponsons because I think it is easier to kill 5 havocs than a pred. However, I think it is harder to kill 10 havocs with MoN or MoT than a pred.

I thought I could use both red n blue but I have to choose. I need your help deciding.

HQ:lord, MoK, Melta bomb-85
Or sorc, MoT, termi armor-85 if taking termi retinue

Elite:
Termi, RAC, -125
Or Hellbrute, TL-LC-125

troops:
10 CSM, 2 melta, melta bomb champ, IoV, rhino-225
10 CSM, 2 melta, meltabomb champ, IoV, rhino-225
10 CSM, 2 melta, meltabomb champ, IoV, rhino-225

Selection based on HQ:
8 TS, melta bomb champ-224
Or 8 KB melta bomb champ, IoW, rhino, combi melta-227

Fast attack:
Helldrake, BF-170

heavy:
Pred, LC-115
Pred, LC-115

Total:1509/1512

any help?