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The Daemon of Nurgle upgrade for the Daemon Prince confers the Shrouded rule, which is a 5+ cover save. The DP already has a 5++ for being a daemon. Is there a point for having Shrouded at all, or are we paying points for the penalty of S&P?

Lets say I have a Plague Marine squad that has an Icon of Despair in assault with an IG blob with a commissar. Both the Ld test for Fear and the forced challenge happen before the fight sub-phase. If the IG player refuses the challenge and I choose the commissar to sit out, does the squad use the commissar's Ld for the Fear test or do they use the next highest? Which resolves first, the Fear test or the refusal of the challenge?

 Warmaster Phthisis wrote:
The Daemon of Nurgle upgrade for the Daemon Prince confers the Shrouded rule, which is a 5+ cover save. The DP already has a 5++ for being a daemon. Is there a point for having Shrouded at all, or are we paying points for the penalty of S&P?

Shrouded is not a 5+ cover save. It's +2 to your current cover save. If you have no cover save then it's functionally identical to your invul, but if (for example) you are in Area Terrain you have a 3+ cover save.

Lets say I have a Plague Marine squad that has an Icon of Despair in assault with an IG blob with a commissar. Both the Ld test for Fear and the forced challenge happen before the fight sub-phase. If the IG player refuses the challenge and I choose the commissar to sit out, does the squad use the commissar's Ld for the Fear test or do they use the next highest? Which resolves first, the Fear test or the refusal of the challenge?

They'd still get to use the commissar's LD I believe - he's still a member of the unit, he just can't swing.
You pick the order of resolution on your turn, he picks the order on his turn - for rules with simultaneous triggers.

Not sure about the second, but the Shrouding is +2 to whatever cover is available. Plant him correctly, and the 5+ cover goes to a 3+, which is better than his 5+. The point is if he is in cover a lot, he gets a considerably better cover save against low AP weapons.

rigeld2 wrote:

Lets say I have a Plague Marine squad that has an Icon of Despair in assault with an IG blob with a commissar. Both the Ld test for Fear and the forced challenge happen before the fight sub-phase. If the IG player refuses the challenge and I choose the commissar to sit out, does the squad use the commissar's Ld for the Fear test or do they use the next highest? Which resolves first, the Fear test or the refusal of the challenge?

They'd still get to use the commissar's LD I believe - he's still a member of the unit, he just can't swing.
You pick the order of resolution on your turn, he picks the order on his turn - for rules with simultaneous triggers.

Actually rigeld, the rule says his Leadership cannot be used by the rest of the unit for the remainder of the phase. Since the Fear test uses Leadership, the Commissars Leadership cannot be used.

Fair enough - I didn't reference the BRB and misremembered. Hence "I believe" :-)

 Warmaster Phthisis wrote:
The Daemon of Nurgle upgrade for the Daemon Prince confers the Shrouded rule, which is a 5+ cover save. The DP already has a 5++ for being a daemon. Is there a point for having Shrouded at all, or are we paying points for the penalty of S&P?

This also gives a flying daemon prince of Nurgle a jink save of 3+

Give him wing's, and make him fly. While all flying daemon princes get a 5+ save against anti-armour shot's, the nurgle one can jink to get a 3+ cover save instead (5+ jink + 5+ for shrouded). More than that, with nightfighting. Which makes him the most resillient of the flying daemon princes.

So a nurgle DP is either a tough to hit vector striker or a cover-camping battle wizard....

Just avoid assault because he loses any benefits.

Its fairly useful actually. its pretty easy to get at least a 5+ cover from somewhere with only needing to hide 25% of the model, which automatically goes to 3+ cover.

Depending on your table, 2+ cover isn't hard to get with Shrouded. Just get 25% covered behind a Ruin or a hill crest, either of which provides 4+ on its own.

 Mannahnin wrote:
Depending on your table, 2+ cover isn't hard to get with Shrouded. Just get 25% covered behind a Ruin or a hill crest, either of which provides 4+ on its own.

Wouldn't 25% cover behind a hill crest be 5+ cover save?

Hill crests are a 4+ save I thought.

nosferatu1001 wrote:
Hill crests are a 4+ save I thought.

Correct. Hillcrests are 4+ being on the hill is usually area/difficult 5+

Being on a hill is area? Not where I play.

An open clear hill top is clear ground, not area.

In the BrB a hill is defined as giving you 5+ cover if you are higher than the unit shooting at you.

nosferatu1001 wrote:
Being on a hill is area? Not where I play.

An open clear hill top is clear ground, not area.

Depends on the hills, we have some really crap hills in my area that are just LOS blocking and give nothing while we have big hills that are proper area terrain.

 Happyjew wrote:

Actually rigeld, the rule says his Leadership cannot be used by the rest of the unit for the remainder of the phase. Since the Fear test uses Leadership, the Commissars Leadership cannot be used.

When is the fear test taken? When the assault is declared or after contact has been made?

before attacks are made but after assault moves have been made.

 Grey Templar wrote:
before attacks are made but after assault moves have been made.

So yeah, if the commisar was the only character model remaining, and he refused the challenge, then they squad couldn't use his leadership.

If there were another character (Sergeant, IC) in the squad, you could just accept the challenge on him, though.

(I found the rule shortly after posting, sorry to waste your time.)