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Hi all, straight to the point, last game i rolled chaos and my buddy played Grey Gak.

So it came to the assault phase and i had a tactical squad positioned roughly 4-6 inches out from the base of a ruin wall, my opponent had an interceptor squad on the top level of the ruin wall.

My ruin walls are GW products and the second levels are all the same from 6 1/4 to 6 1/2 inches high from the gaming table.

I did over watch, which i rapid fired, i didn't find anything saying you couldn't rapid fire overwatch. It was resolved and we continued.

This is were i'm unsure of how things should have played out. His squad is jump infantry, it moves 12' and rolls 3 dice when rolling to charge. A ruin wall is difficult terrain, descending through ruins is considered dangerous terrain. When you measure to charge like this do you measure on an angel from the second level of the ruin wall to the squad (roughly) 45 degree's down, or do you measure down to the gaming table and outwards to the squad. And since they are jump infantry do the have to take any kind of difficult or dangerous terrain test for charging out of the ruins second level into my tactical squad?

First, if you are in half range with a rapid fire weapon you fire two shots, you never "rapid fire" a weapon (just like you don't "heavy" a missile launcher).

Second, if Jump Infantry use their Jump Packs in either the Movement phase or the Assault phase, not both.

I'm not sure on how to measure for the assault move, however, HIWPI you move vertical first, then horizontal.

If they jump down without their jump packs they take a dnagerous terrain test for impact. If they charge using their Jump Packs, they take a dangerous terrain test for starting in difficult terrain.

Happyjew is correct, you never rapid fire the weapon. the weapon is Type Rapid fire when shooting two shots you double tap.

As for the rest:
HIWPI:

If using jump packs measure the actual linear distance from base to base (The Hypotenuse of the triangle in your case).

If not, measure down the wall to the ground, then along the ground to the unit.

(This may be RAW as well, but the rules are kind of vague on vertical distance).

Yeah, gotta agree with DR on measuring if using the jump packs.

Thanks a lot dudes, DeathReaper thanks for all the help you've been giving me lately ha ha you seem to respond to me all the time... batman?

I wanted to be sure because its going to happen tonight and i'm kind of strict on doing it by the book, so its fair, my gaming bud and i are long time friends and super competitive.

So when he ordered his charge and overwatch was settled, he would then go model by model rolling dangerous terrain tests moving each model one by one into base contact with my tactical squad?

Since hes jump infantry he would be rolling three dice for charging, when doing through difficult or dangerous terrain how exactly does this work? I believe they would now roll 4D6 and remove the highest result, add it together and move the following added result? And they would be at initiative 1 because of this correct?

You roll 3D6, drop the highest. If using Jump Packs you can re-roll the distance and if starting or ending in difficult terrain you take a dangerous terrain test.

That sounds right to me.

 DeathReaper wrote:
Happyjew is correct, you never rapid fire the weapon. the weapon is Type Rapid fire when shooting two shots you double tap.

As for the rest:
HIWPI:

If using jump packs measure the actual linear distance from base to base (The Hypotenuse of the triangle in your case).

If not, measure down the wall to the ground, then along the ground to the unit.

(This may be RAW as well, but the rules are kind of vague on vertical distance).

I just realized that they got rid of the graphic of the Shinning Spear that used to show you how to move jump, jet bikes and skimmers onto ruins. Huh! You've got it spot on, though.

They are vague on verticle distance, you're supposed to confer with your opponent on how tall each level of a ruin is supposed to be. I always settle that climbing up or down a single level is 3" of movement used.

 Frecklesonfire wrote:
So it came to the assault phase and i had a tactical squad positioned roughly 4-6 inches out from the base of a ruin wall, my opponent had an interceptor squad on the top level of the ruin wall.

My ruin walls are GW products and the second levels are all the same from 6 1/4 to 6 1/2 inches high from the gaming table.

This is were i'm unsure of how things should have played out. His squad is jump infantry, it moves 12' and rolls 3 dice when rolling to charge. A ruin wall is difficult terrain, descending through ruins is considered dangerous terrain. When you measure to charge like this do you measure on an angel from the second level of the ruin wall to the squad (roughly) 45 degree's down, or do you measure down to the gaming table and outwards to the squad. And since they are jump infantry do the have to take any kind of difficult or dangerous terrain test for charging out of the ruins second level into my tactical squad?

I snipped out the overwatch bits, as that's been covered. Pages 98-99 describe how you move between levels in ruins. Essentially you have to count the full vertical distance covered; in my experience a common house rule is to play that it's 3" to move between levels even if they're not exactly 3", but per the rulebook it should be whatever the actual distance is.

So, if the Interceptors are 6" up on a Ruin, and the Tactical Marines are 5" away (measuring just horizontal, disregarding vertical for a moment), if they're moving on foot they have to charge 11" to get there. Which, when you're talking about 3d6 drop the highest, is highly unlikely to reach.

If, OTOH, they didn't use their packs in the movement phase, they get to use them in the assault phase, and are entitled to move over the terrain rather than having to cover those 11" on foot. They can measure the straight-line distance to the closest charged model. Now, I most commonly see folks play this as just the horizontal, but using the hypoteneuse is probably at least equally valid.

 Mannahnin wrote:
If, OTOH, they didn't use their packs in the movement phase, they get to use them in the assault phase, and are entitled to move over the terrain rather than having to cover those 11" on foot. They can measure the straight-line distance to the closest charged model. Now, I most commonly see folks play this as just the horizontal, but using the hypoteneuse is probably at least equally valid.

Well, well - I've checked all the movement and terrain rules and nowhere does it say how to calculate any vertical moves. Even for battlements and jump units, it states if the move distance is "sufficient". So there isn't really RAW, but given jump rules themselves say you move "without penalty" when using them, I'd say a straight horizontal measure would be best.

Using the hypotenuse can actually add inches, anyone that can remember how Pythagoras' Theorem should be able to work out that a move of about 4-6 inches with 6 inches of height is actually a couple of inches different - which makes ALL the difference in a charge move. With 3 inch height ruins it's not so much, but the difference is more pronounced the further away you are.

Freckles, for that reason the "horizontal or diagonal" question when moving in these ruins is worth checking with your opponent before starting the game if you use those pieces.

i had a tactical squad positioned roughly 4-6 inches out from the base of a ruin wall, my opponent had an interceptor squad on the top level of the ruin wall.

Also remember that both declaring a charge and OW require LOS. Two units on dfft floors of ruins frequently will not be able to see each other, as the floor prevents models from drawing LOS.

This is actually a fun scenario. For the sake of argument lets say that the chaos unit is 5" away from the ruin and the grey knight unit is 2 floors above ground right on the edge of the ruin.

When you fire your over watch shots you would measure the distance on the angle. If the distance measured is half the range of the weapon or less rapid fire weapons would get two shots. Then the charging unit rolls for the charge distance and it gets more complicated. In your scenario the charging player has 3 choices.

1) His unit may climb down as they charge of foot. - The total distance they can charge is 3d6 (discount the highest) and his unit will fight at initiative step 1 regardless of modifiers. Each floor counts as 3" of movement and the unit must move across the open ground. In this scenario they need an 11+ on the distance roll or the charge is failed and they do not move at all (but are considered to have moved). Does not seem likely...

2) His unit may jump down as they charge on foot. - The total distance they can charge is 2d6 and each model in the unit will take an impact test (in this case each model must roll a 4+ or be slain) and is moved anywhere with 3 inches of the base of the ruin and must move across the open ground. In this scenario the need a 3+ on the distance roll or the charge is failed and they do not move any further. Much more likely but could be fatal.

3)His unit, assuming it did not use its jump pack in the movement phase, may fly down. - The total distance they can charge is 2d6 but can re-roll the distance. Because the unit will start its move in difficult terrain each model in the unit must take a dangerous terrain test ( in this case each model must roll a 2+ or take a wound). Jump Infantry move in the shortest possible route, so in this scenario they measure distance on an angel and need a 8+ on the distance roll or the charge is failed and the do not move at all (again, still considered to have moved). More likely then option 1 and much less lethal then option 2 but still not a great idea considering the distance.

EDITED FOR CLARIFICATION
EDITED AGAIN becouse of FAQ and I was mostly right the 1st time ()

Super - they dont need to add rules for how to measure in ruins; they tell you exactly how to measure when moving - from the base stating position to the base finishing position.

Thats it.

So you MUST take the diagonal when landing in ruins with a jump pack move. That is the shortest path you have actually moved in. When "walking" you would move horizontally and vertically, summing the distance to get what you moved.

 DJGietzen wrote:
3)His unit, assuming it did not use its jump pack in the movement phase, may fly down. - The total distance they can charge is 2d6 but can re-roll the distance. Because the unit will start its move in difficult terrain each model in the unit must take a dangerous terrain test ( in this case each model must roll a 2+ or take a wound). Again each floor of the ruin counts as 3" of movement so in this scenario they need a 11+ on the distance roll or the charge is failed and the do not move at all (again, still considered to have moved). More likely then option 1 and much less lethal then option 2 but still not a good idea considering the distance.

According to Page 428 (The summary in the back of the book) If you jump into or out of Difficult terrain you roll 3D6 for your charge range discarding the highest roll.

Also you should measure in a straight line when using Jump Packs.

Pg 428 is a bit confusing as the jump units should be ignoring the effects of difficult terrain but there it is in black and white. Also, 100% agreed on the distance thing but was tired when I write my response.

Previous post edited for clarification.

 DeathReaper wrote:

 DJGietzen wrote:
3)His unit, assuming it did not use its jump pack in the movement phase, may fly down. - The total distance they can charge is 2d6 but can re-roll the distance. Because the unit will start its move in difficult terrain each model in the unit must take a dangerous terrain test ( in this case each model must roll a 2+ or take a wound). Again each floor of the ruin counts as 3" of movement so in this scenario they need a 11+ on the distance roll or the charge is failed and the do not move at all (again, still considered to have moved). More likely then option 1 and much less lethal then option 2 but still not a good idea considering the distance.

According to Page 428 (The summary in the back of the book) If you jump into or out of Difficult terrain you roll 3D6 for your charge range discarding the highest roll.

Also you should measure in a straight line when using Jump Packs.

According to the FAQ:

Reference Section – The Game Summary, Assault Phase,
Jump units (using theirjump packs), Effects of Difficult
Terrain.
Change the entry to read “2D6"; may re-roll both dice and
must take a Dangerous Terrain test if they start or end their
charge move in difficult terrain.”

And there you go, it was changed in the FaQ.

So “2D6"; may re-roll both dice and must take a Dangerous Terrain test if they start or end their charge move in difficult terrain.

No change; the rule for moving "through" terrain didnt affect a unit that never moved *through* but *over*

nosferatu1001 wrote:
No change; the rule for moving "through" terrain didnt affect a unit that never moved *through* but *over*

Right but the book clearly listed it as 3D6, not 2d6.

How is that not a change?

I think he means no change to how it should work. There clearly was a change to correct a mistake in the reference section.