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Honor Guard SM VS Company Command Squads SM VS Company Command Squads IG  [RSS] Share on facebook Share on Twitter Submit to Reddit
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What is better? IG command squad, SM command squad, or SM honor guard?
Space Marine Honor Guard squad
Space Marine Company Command squad
Imperial Guard Command squad
They all suck. Give us something better to choose from you Imperial scum!

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Made in us
Slippery Scout Biker





This is a debate not only on stats, but also price cost. Why? Because we all know that in a full out pimped matchup, Space Marine Honor guard would always win, but is even that fact true?

In the end the debate will be argued on three different topics.
1) Power. How much of a punch can each squad deliver, what kind of power is it effective against, and how effective would they be against other HQ choices.
2) Versatility. How effective are these squads against units that they are not built to be proficient against? How well would they fair against both armor and infantry at range and melee
3) Point cost. How much does the unit cost and how cost effective are they?

Let us look at Company Command squads of the Imperial Guard first.

... They are the Cheapest at base point cost out of the three. They do not require any other HQ characters to create them, and start out at a base of 50 points for 5 models. That is 10 points per model, and one of them holding a stat line just under a normal space marine captains stat line. Average WS is 3, but average BS is 4 The squad has a total of 7 wounds and holds basic IG weapons and armor. But they can easily wield weapons that can destroy even the toughest of opponents, and armor resilient to the vast majority to small arms fire. For only 20 points more, the entire squad can have carapace armor, which makes them go from a 5+ armor save to a 4+. The reason why this is incredible, is the fact that no other HQ squad can truly claim that they can increase their armor save (except for the SM company command squad with storm shields, but we will get into that later).

... With that, two in the squad can mount a heavy weapon such as a mortar for 5 pts, Auto cannon or Heavy Bolter for 10pts, and so on. The point is they have an edge with long range firepower that could possibly knock out armor or infantry from a distance. They also have the ability to gain "Feel no pain" for 30 points. The SM command squad can boast that they get it free, but the Honor Guard cannot claim the ability, so it is a 1UP for both IG and SM command squads. Another fun thing that IG command squads can do that Honor guard cannot, is have special weapons. for only 60 pts more one could have four plasma. for only 20 points one could have four sniper rifels or even grenade launchers. The only thing comparable to the IG grenade launcher is the auxiliary grenade launchers that are three times more expensive

... Not only can the squad gain special abilities for individuals in the squad, they can also add members to the squad and get special abilities at the same time. You look at the Master of Ordinance for instance. He has the power to call down strength 9 AP 3 large blasts every turn. It is like having a half off basilisk that is not an open-topped target to just get sniped by a heavy weapons team twiddling their fingers. Of coarse some of these traits seem ridiculous like Telepathic relay or Intercept reserves, but if compared to the comms relay, it kinda seems not a nerfed ability nor a OP power either. Another one of their units with traits is the bodyguard. Personally I believe that they have just become expensive veterans, because the lookout sir! ability was nice in fifth addition, but now everyone can use it for free.

... Another fun thing about the IG command squads are their Characters. The only thing that SM can compare to the special characters that IG can just simply add to a squad are their Unique Captains and Chapter masters that cost more by themselves than an Imperial Guard Company Comand Squad can ever cost without these bonus characters.


Over all I would say their mass produced price tag that even China would be jealous of makes them #1 in cost, but not in cost effectiveness. Their ability to mount a variety of powers and characters and weapons that neither of the other two squads makes them more versatile, but maybe not efficient at it as required to win that branch. Also, the firepower that one could deliver from a strong platform of this squad is unfathomably effective to all who want to outgun them, but they lack any chance in high heaven to even win against Tau fire warriors in Close Combat.


Moving on to the next squad. The all faithful Space Marine Command Squad.

... This squad holds an interesting position, for it is very much like the Imperial Guard Command squad in many ways, but at double the cost, and quite possibly triple the melee power as the Imperial Guard Squad. Starting at 115 points at base seems fairly decent. You get Feel no pain, power armor, grenades, a variety of dedicated transports that actually work for them. The downside is, they are like the .99 cents you find at the end of every freaking product's price tag that you look at in america. With this amazing squad of four amazing space marine veterans and apothecary, you also have to pay another 100 points for a captain just to field them. That is without any bonuses to the captain, or even any bonuses to the command squad themselves. And for that, I give them a thumbs down for causing so many Venilla Marine players to turn down this amazing squad, because they could get a dreadnought for practically the same price.

... But even with this price trickery, do not fret; for the Space Marine Company Command Squad holds so many loving traits that make them so much more than what many put them up to be. One big reason for only 15 points more you can have a champion who is a +1 in weapon skill and holds a power weapon (that means a lance, maul, power ax, or power sword) and a combat shield. Sadly no one really cares about the shield because it only grants a 6+ invul save. Meh! But that is not all. Unlike any of the other three squads, they can wield Combat shields. Yes they are 15 points each, and a person could complain that you could pay for seven terminators with Thunder hammers and Storm shields for a better prices than the SM Company Command squad will ever be. This is true, but who can deny that if they could get a five man squad with four power weapons, storm shields, and the feel no pain special rule for 335 points is relatively a decent prices?

... Going past the melee aspect of the Squads over kill in variety of melee weapons from power swords to thunder hammers, the squad also has the equal price and almost equal variety as the Imperial Guard Command Squads. Melta, flamers, plasma guns or plasma pistols. They are all there. I would not be surprised if I saw someone fielding a SM Command squad with four meltas and four power swords or storm shields at the same time. Not only does the squad excel in melee, but they can be the meanest short ranged anti-anything. Flamers, melta, or even plasma, capable to be wielded side by side with storm shields or power swords can be a neusance to any who cannot crack their armor or deliver enough wounds to cause them to die. Even then, the squad holds the Feel no pain ability, which makes them even that much harder to kill.


Summing them up, I would have to say that they are probably the most effective unit in versatility. Yet of coarse I cannot say that they are the best at killing everything, for there is obvious units that can out do them on any field they attempt to master. Their prices is high at a base of 215 with the captain added, and they lack long rang combat. They are a good unit to rely on, but not to depend on. If you want something that breach the barricade, best look into Stern guard, Terminators, land Raiders, or Dreadnoughts.


And now last, but not least, the Space Marine Honor Guard

... These guys are truly the most expensive pieces of junk that one could ever even consider fielding on the table. 115 for three!? 35 points per model!? This seems ridiculous, but it is not. Although the three man squad and the chapter master sum up to a total of 240 pts (An equal price of a Land Raider Redeemer), and at full force reaching a devastating price of 485 points. They amazingly will almost always kill more points then they are worth. The starting 115 comes already with a champion who has a +1 to WS and to his attack. This champion also directs all of his attacks automatically (even without a challenge) to any opponent independent characters. All attacks re-roll all failed to hits, and failed to wound against that independent character. This is very nice, for even if your opponent decides not to accept the champion's challenge, all of the Champion's attacks are directed at that independent character anyways.

... That is nice and all, but that is not at all what makes the honor guard amazing at all. There are three things they have that make them the #1 most terrifying unit to meet on the battlefield. #1 They start off with a 2+ armor save, a Bolter, a bolt pistol, and a Power weapon (that means power lance, power maul, power ax or power sword are chooseable by this squad for no extra cost) for the price of 35 points. Terminators are 40 points and not even they can boast a list of war gear that versatile and dangerous. yes there are the thunder hammer and storm shield terminators, but they cannot fire and cannot pursue their enemies if they flee Close Combat. The honor guard can. With that, it is quite possible for a total of 15 additional points more per model to wield Relic Blades. These unexplained weapons are considered power weapons that make the wielder's strength 6. They are considered to be AP 3 power weapons by some, but it is debated that they could also be axes, since that is what the Ultra marine Honor Guard bear. Due to this unexplained conundrum, a relic blade could quite possibly be any form of a power weapon. This means one could quite possibly wield a S8 AP 4 weapon that hits on Initiative 4, or even a S6 AP 3 weapon that strikes at Initiative 4 as well.

... Amazingly, their over power capabilities do not just end there. They have the most effective banner out of all the Imperial Codex's. The Chapter Banner. It grants all units within 12" a re-roll on moral and pinning test, grants a +1 to Close combat resolution, AND grants any member of the squad +1 to their attack. You field an honor guard squad, you must pay the aditional 25 points for that extra attack per model. for a full 10 man honor guard + captain that is 11 additional attacks by the most veteran members of the chapter.

... Sadly that is where their usefulness comes at an end. They truly have no good rang power to deal with armor or even infantry. They can have melta bombs, but most see those as useless unless for bikes, infiltrator, or jump infantry. Maybe someday someone will think of granting the Honor Guard some special over priced ranged weapons, but no one will ever pay for them. The Honor Guard are meant soully as boss killers. You got a squad of nobs or meganobs to deal with? Honor Guard. You have a mean lean Monstrous creature plowing through the ranks? Honor Guard. You have the Blood Angels draining the blood out of your men by the bushel (and claiming it is not for the blood god). Who are you gonna call? Honor Guard!


To simplify what I just wrote. Best at melee. I mean THE best at melee. Over priced, but definitely worth it if fighting gods or over powered infantry. But when it comes to prices or range? I think we can all agree that they are like dwarfs. Sturdy, stubborn, and can do anything... except reach the cookie jar on top of the refrigerator.



So. Who do you think in your personal opinion is the best? You think I left something out? Please comment down below. You think that there is something more worthy to be compared to, mention it in your post. I am always interested in what others have to say.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2013/02/23 08:04:27


Brothers. Into the Jaws of Death! Into the Gates of Hell! 
   
Made in us
Stalwart Veteran Guard Sergeant




The Biggest Little City

Personally I think this is a huge no brainer. IG CCS FTW. Considering the points saved against the Honor Guard you could probably purchase at least 1 if not 2 mounted vet squads with special weapons. In terms of point cost efficiency its pretty hard to beat IG CCS. Other contenders in my book for top HQ are D Lords, Rune Priests, Coteaz, Eldrad, Farseers, Flyrants, and I'm sure many more. In reality I do not think that any C:SM HQ really ranks in the top tier although librarians with gate/null might just be..... those seem to offer quite a bit of utility.

May the WAAC and pretzels be with you.

~Casey 
   
Made in gb
Ian Pickstock




Nottingham

CCS are awesome. At 2000 points I always try to take 4 of them, 90 points for 4 BS4 meltaguns is sweet.

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Hey Jude. 
   
Made in se
Fluttering Firewyrm of Tzeentch





 Britanica Maximus wrote:
That is nice and all, but that is not at all what makes the honor guard amazing at all. There are three things they have that make them the #1 most terrifying unit to meet on the battlefield. #1 They start off with a 2+ armor save, a Bolter, a bolt pistol, and a Power weapon (that means power lance, power maul, power ax or power sword are chooseable by this squad for no extra cost) for the price of 35 points. Terminators are 40 points and not even they can boast a list of war gear that versatile and dangerous. yes there are the thunder hammer and storm shield terminators, but they cannot fire and cannot pursue their enemies if they flee Close Combat. The honor guard can. With that, it is quite possible for a total of 15 additional points more per model to wield Relic Blades. These unexplained weapons are considered power weapons that make the wielder's strength 6. They are considered to be AP 3 power weapons by some, but it is debated that they could also be axes, since that is what the Ultra marine Honor Guard bear. Due to this unexplained conundrum, a relic blade could quite possibly be any form of a power weapon. This means one could quite possibly wield a S8 AP 4 weapon that hits on Initiative 4, or even a S6 AP 3 weapon that strikes at Initiative 4 as well.


It'd been cool if Relic Blades worked like that. But the FAQ states that they are S6 AP3 Two Handed Weapons. So basically swords only.


I like the Honour Guard unit even though it isn't all that great. I think if they had an invulnerable save or at least more loadout options it would have been better.
With that said though, I'd like to try out an Honour Guard unit fully equipped with Auxiliary Grenade Launchers. 10 Bolters and 10 Grenade Launchers could be pretty fun. Would give them the ability to kill MEQ and Light Vehicles in shooting aswell as in melee. But this unit would clock in at 510 points. 10 Frag rounds and 10-20 bolter rounds could probably also put a dent in a non-spread out horde.

   
Made in au
Terrifying Treeman






The Fallen Realm of Umbar

Why are you comparing marine command squads to guard ones? They don't eve have the same role, it's like asking which is better, devastators or assault marines?

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2013/02/23 13:16:25


DT:90-S++G++M++B+IPw40k07+D+A+++/cWD-R+T(T)DM+
Horst wrote:This is how trolling happens. A few cheeky posts are made. Then they get more insulting. Eventually, we revert to our primal animal state, hurling feces at each other while shreeking with glee.

 
   
Made in us
Slippery Scout Biker





Why are you comparing marine command squads to guard ones? They don't eve have the same role, it's like asking which is better, devastators or assault marines?


The reason being, is because they are all squad based HQ of venilla based imperial forces. I am not saying that they all do not have different uses, but I am asking which is the most cost effective, efficiently versatile, and most powerful.

You could technically compare a devastator squad to an assault squad. The final conclusion would be that Devs are too pricey and that assault marines are not effective against air or army based armies. Who is better? Well, that is a debate for another time.


Now back to the subject. I personally enjoy a Space Marine Company Command Squad. Just the fact that I can have four metla guns or four powers words, with four storm shields makes them unfair target for any units with only AT attacks.

Thank you Raezazel for pointing that out. I guess I have some apologies to give some people now... I hate it when I cheat.

Brothers. Into the Jaws of Death! Into the Gates of Hell! 
   
Made in us
Douglas Bader






IG CCS: the most efficient way of delivering 4x melta or 4x plasma, and hands out shooting boosts to nearby units (you completely forgot about this part). Who cares about carapace armor or sniper rifles or whatever, none of those upgrades matter. Give it 4x melta or 4x plasma and put it in a Chimera/Vendetta. It's an efficient shooting unit that makes your other units even more efficient. And IG win games by being efficient.

C:SM command squad: the least efficient way of delivering 4x melta or 4x plasma. No better shooting than the CCS, no orders, no Vendetta, and a significantly higher price tag to reflect the assault abilities that you don't really care about. The only real advantage is that you can take a biker captain and have your melta/plasma on a bike command squad.

C:SM honor guard: garbage unit. They cost almost as much as TH/SS terminators, but are much worse than TH/SS terminators. I can't think of a situation where this unit could ever be useful.


In conclusion: CCS > command squad >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> honor guard.

There is no such thing as a hobby without politics. "Leave politics at the door" is itself a political statement, an endorsement of the status quo and an attempt to silence dissenting voices. 
   
Made in gb
Sadistic Inquisitorial Excruciator






The Midlands

They all fulfill different roles, but I went for SM Command Squad, they are a unique unit in the SM dex, no other unit can take 4 Plasma's and get FNP as well. Neither do they take up a FO slot.

CCS are good but Vets can do a similar job. I go Primaris Psyker myself.

 
   
Made in us
Regular Dakkanaut




Of the 3 IG is best because of points cost.

I don't disagree with the way the votes break down but I do disagree with a few statements that have been made.

1. Basing a units performance on how many points it kills is a flawed concept, especially in 6th. Especially when one could theoretically win 5/6of all games without killing anything.

2. If you can't think of a situation in which a squad of 2+ save bolter marines with power weapons can be useful then I don't know what to tell you. I think where a lot of people go wrong is that they try and put them against elite assault units and then cry when they get face-stomped. I've had the most success using them in a transport to hunt down enemy scoring units, because there aren't many scoring units out there that honour guard can't beat down.
   
Made in us
Heroic Senior Officer





Western Kentucky

This feels like comparing oranges to chainsaws to tanks.

All three squads are developed for completely different armies with completely different roles in mind. For example, the IG CCS is mainly used as a support unit (in infantry lists) to bolster morale and provide orders. It tend to has very little killing power, and tends to sit in the back and make sure your army does what it's supposed to. In a mech list though, they're used aggressively as cheaper and harder hitting vet squads, taking as much of a special weapon as possible and just destroying the enemy.

The only time I could see a fair comparison between any of these units was if you were allying two of these codexes together, and were trying to decide between two of the units to fill a certain role. Even there, that would probably only be applicable for the space marine choices.

Because I mean honestly, who's going to look at honor guard and go "You know what, I bet a CCS could totally do that better."

'I've played Guard for years, and the best piece of advice is to always utilize the Guard's best special rule: "we roll more dice than you" ' - stormleader

"Sector Imperialis: 25mm and 40mm Round Bases (40+20) 26€ (Including 32 skulls for basing) " GW design philosophy in a nutshell  
   
Made in us
Douglas Bader






CrowSplat wrote:
1. Basing a units performance on how many points it kills is a flawed concept, especially in 6th. Especially when one could theoretically win 5/6of all games without killing anything.


In theory, maybe. In reality, no. You aren't going to win the objective game without doing some killing, and how efficiently a non-scoring unit kills stuff is a pretty good way of measuring how much it contributes to your army.

2. If you can't think of a situation in which a squad of 2+ save bolter marines with power weapons can be useful then I don't know what to tell you.


The question isn't whether they are capable of being useful, the question is whether they're better than the things you could buy instead. Those 2+ save bolter marines are just way too expensive for what they offer, an equal point value in sternguard/terminators/etc will be more effective.

I've had the most success using them in a transport to hunt down enemy scoring units, because there aren't many scoring units out there that honour guard can't beat down.


TH/SS do that just as well, except TH/SS can also beat down pretty much anything that isn't another TH/SS unit.

There is no such thing as a hobby without politics. "Leave politics at the door" is itself a political statement, an endorsement of the status quo and an attempt to silence dissenting voices. 
   
Made in us
Regular Dakkanaut




 Peregrine wrote:
CrowSplat wrote:
1. Basing a units performance on how many points it kills is a flawed concept, especially in 6th. Especially when one could theoretically win 5/6of all games without killing anything.


In theory, maybe. In reality, no. You aren't going to win the objective game without doing some killing, and how efficiently a non-scoring unit kills stuff is a pretty good way of measuring how much it contributes to your army.

2. If you can't think of a situation in which a squad of 2+ save bolter marines with power weapons can be useful then I don't know what to tell you.


The question isn't whether they are capable of being useful, the question is whether they're better than the things you could buy instead. Those 2+ save bolter marines are just way too expensive for what they offer, an equal point value in sternguard/terminators/etc will be more effective.

I've had the most success using them in a transport to hunt down enemy scoring units, because there aren't many scoring units out there that honour guard can't beat down.


TH/SS do that just as well, except TH/SS can also beat down pretty much anything that isn't another TH/SS unit.


I agree with all of this. My comment on HG having uses was in reference to the above post that said exactly that they were useless. They aren't useless, they're just less efficient than other choices (terminators).

Killing scoring units is just the use that I have had the most success with.

Of course if I'm trying to win a tournament then the Honour Guard stay in the case but in a pick-up game at the flgs, I don't feel massively handicapped by taking a squad of them instead of termies.
   
 
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