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Made in gb
Hallowed Canoness





Between

I'm hoping this is a joke thrown up by my fever. In the new White Dwarf, there is a new Black Library book announced, "Death of Antagonis" by David Annandale.

Now, I like the Black Dragons, in as much as I'm peripherally aware of them as a mutant Space Marine chapter with elbow-blades. I started reading the (rather spoileriffic) description of the book and wishing I could afford it. Until I got to this passage;

"The wider cast of characters also reveals some gems, my favourite being Canoness Errant Stheno - a warrior woman so devout that she oversaw the eradication of her own order of Battle Sisters for heresy. She is a powerful figure and one who lends a great deal to the overall storytelling, providing an excellent foil not only to the Black Dragons but also to Inquisitor Lettinger of the Ordo Malleus."

Why?

I blame Black Library for this as much as Mr. Annandale - they HAVE editors whose job it is to make sure that books don't conflict with existing fluff!

There have been implications, and occasional mentions of heretic Battle Sisters in other books, but always on a small scale and usually they manage to redeem themselves... yet here, we have a full order of Battle Sisters turned heretic just as a framing device for a character who is almost certainly going to be portrayed as a villain as much as the Canoness from Redemption Corps - at least THAT evil Canoness had the excuse of theoretically still being loyal to the Emperor, even if she was answering to a second master in the secret organisation that were planning to doom an entire sector to force the High Lords to shore up the near-terra defences.

Why do they do this to us? Sisters as supposed to be incorruptible, with the single exception of Miriael Sabathiel. If they pulled something like this with the Grey Knights, there would be mobs screaming at the gates of the Lenton facility! You'd have protestors scaling the Space Marine gate guard!

Why is it OK for them to turn the incorruptible Sisters into mere heretic fodder? Is it because the Sisters are women? Is it because they're bitter that they can't just write us out of the game? Have they not NOTICED that at least 10% of their fanbase are now female?

Before anyone brings up Daemonifuge: There were no heretical Sisters in Daemonifuge. There were madwomen who killed everything they saw, but they were not Slaaneshi cultists like so many people like to assume.



"That time I only loaded the cannon with powder. Next time, I will fill it with jewels and diamonds and they will cut you to shrebbons!" - Nogbad the Bad. 
   
Made in us
Fireknife Shas'el






I don't think it sounds like the entire order of sisters being corrupted so much as one Canoness in a position of power assumed something and just killed everything with fire to be on the safe side.

I'm expecting an Imperial Knights supplement dedicated to GW's loyalist apologetics. Codex: White Knights "In the grim dark future, everything is fine."

"The argument is that we have to do this or we will, bit by bit,
lose everything that we hold dear, everything that keeps the business going. Our crops will wither, our children will die piteous
deaths and the sun will be swept from the sky."
-Tom Kirby 
   
Made in us
1st Lieutenant




Philadelphia, Pennsylvania, USA

 Savageconvoy wrote:
I don't think it sounds like the entire order of sisters being corrupted so much as one Canoness in a position of power assumed something and just killed everything with fire to be on the safe side.


That's how I read it. The Order wasn't actually corrupt, she just got really trigger happy and killed them all. It's not the first time a over-zealous figure destroyed a whole planet/order/chapter/group of people just because they think the group MIGHT be corrupt (how often do Inquisitors destroy planets or wage wars because they think there is a tiny possibility of heresy)

DS:90S++G++M--B++I++Pww211++D++A+++/areWD-R+++T(T)DM+

Miniature Projects:
6mm/15mm Cold War

15/20mm World War 2 (using Flames of War or Battlegroup Overlord/Kursk)

6mm Napoleonic's (Prussia, Russia, France, Britain) 
   
Made in us
Fireknife Shas'el






Maybe she thought the floors were looking a bit heretical and that Sister blood would purify the fudge out of it, after reading the GK codex.

Joking aside. I just read the Faith and Fire book a little while ago. Some Sister's left a pointless battle when they found out it was a diversion set up by a curropt church leader. The guy was going to activate this machine to turn him into an unstoppable psychic engine of destruction (He was really trying to restore the Emperor, but I don't find anyone in the book to be a good guy). Sisters stopped him and saved the day, ended up getting demoted down to the lowest rank and the squad was broken up.

It's not about being right. It's about being the only one left alive to say who was wrong.

I'm expecting an Imperial Knights supplement dedicated to GW's loyalist apologetics. Codex: White Knights "In the grim dark future, everything is fine."

"The argument is that we have to do this or we will, bit by bit,
lose everything that we hold dear, everything that keeps the business going. Our crops will wither, our children will die piteous
deaths and the sun will be swept from the sky."
-Tom Kirby 
   
Made in gb
Longtime Dakkanaut







Sister's are not incoruptable. It's just that none has ever turned heretic, because any that show the slightest sign of doing so, get blammed by their superior's bolt pistol.
   
Made in gb
Lone Wolf Sentinel Pilot





Nottinghamshire, UK

I would guess it's as others have said, the character in question was probably meant to be excessively paranoid. However, I do agree that Sisters in BL novels (or at least the ones I've read) often get portrayed pretty poorly, coming on either to be killed off or to act as bloodthirsty zealots - sounds like this character is the latter type (yes, I know many Imperial armies have their share of bloodthirsty zealots, but I think the Sisters are more likely to be shown as the ones who go charging in n without much of a plan).

Driven away from WH40K by rules bloat and the expense of keeping up, now interested in smaller model count games and anything with nifty mechanics. 
   
Made in gb
Hallowed Canoness





Between

 Savageconvoy wrote:
Maybe she thought the floors were looking a bit heretical and that Sister blood would purify the fudge out of it, after reading the GK codex.

Joking aside. I just read the Faith and Fire book a little while ago. Some Sister's left a pointless battle when they found out it was a diversion set up by a curropt church leader. The guy was going to activate this machine to turn him into an unstoppable psychic engine of destruction (He was really trying to restore the Emperor, but I don't find anyone in the book to be a good guy). Sisters stopped him and saved the day, ended up getting demoted down to the lowest rank and the squad was broken up.

It's not about being right. It's about being the only one left alive to say who was wrong.


Ugh, but for breaking orders like that, Miriya should have been shot or put into the Repentia. As it was, she got demoted, yes, but she also got given her free choice of any mission she wanted. Some 'punishment'.



"That time I only loaded the cannon with powder. Next time, I will fill it with jewels and diamonds and they will cut you to shrebbons!" - Nogbad the Bad. 
   
Made in gb
Longtime Dakkanaut




West Midlands (UK)

All I can say is that Canoness Errant Setheno is one of the coolest new original characters to come out of Black Library in a long time.

If Annandale writes a Canoness Setheno novel (or series), I'd be all over it!

That said, as pointed out above, neither Sisters (nor Grey Knights) are inherently "incorruptible" by some sort of magic quality.

They are merely "incorruptible" in the sense that none/very few have turned to Chaos so far.

Thus the very notion of their (relative) purity and incorruptibility hinges precisely on extreme measures such as the one described as having come to pass under Canoness Setheno's watch. It's exactly this kind of vigilance and willingness to take extreme measures that underpins their reputation for being incorruptable.

This message was edited 3 times. Last update was at 2013/02/23 20:03:24


   
Made in us
Douglas Bader






 Furyou Miko wrote:
If they pulled something like this with the Grey Knights, there would be mobs screaming at the gates of the Lenton facility!


But they already did, and the result was some grumbling about how Matt Ward sucks and then everyone forgot it and went back to winning tournaments with their new chaos army.

Why is it OK for them to turn the incorruptible Sisters into mere heretic fodder?


Because:

1) Chaos loves everyone, and the idea of an entire human faction being absolutely incorruptible is kind of absurd. Even GK fall to chaos worship, so why should SoB be any different?

2) It gives faith meaning. If SoB are 100% incorruptible then there's no drama to it, you know the end of the story before you even open the book: chaos loses, nobody is corrupted. On the other hand, if they're only hard to corrupt then it makes chaos a lot more interesting. Anyone could fall, and the struggle against the temptation to abandon their faith becomes interesting and has meaning. Success in resisting the lure of chaos becomes a personal virtue rather than just an RPG-style "Immune to Effect: Chaos Corruption" stat bonus that everyone gets.

There is no such thing as a hobby without politics. "Leave politics at the door" is itself a political statement, an endorsement of the status quo and an attempt to silence dissenting voices. 
   
Made in gb
Hallowed Canoness





Between

You've read the book then? Is she really portrayed well enough to cancel out the gross mutilation of the Sisters fluff that she represents?



"That time I only loaded the cannon with powder. Next time, I will fill it with jewels and diamonds and they will cut you to shrebbons!" - Nogbad the Bad. 
   
Made in gb
Longtime Dakkanaut




West Midlands (UK)

 Furyou Miko wrote:
You've read the book then? Is she really portrayed well enough to cancel out the gross mutilation of the Sisters fluff that she represents?


What kind of mutilation of Sisters fluff does she represent?

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2013/02/23 20:06:41


   
Made in gb
Hallowed Canoness





Between

Well, the idea of an entire Order of Sisters turning heretic, when their faith is so pure and strong that in their entire history only a single Sister, Miriael Sabathiel, has turned to chaos?



"That time I only loaded the cannon with powder. Next time, I will fill it with jewels and diamonds and they will cut you to shrebbons!" - Nogbad the Bad. 
   
Made in gb
Longtime Dakkanaut




West Midlands (UK)

 Furyou Miko wrote:
Well, the idea of an entire Order of Sisters turning heretic, when their faith is so pure and strong that in their entire history only a single Sister, Miriael Sabathiel, has turned to chaos?



I think the "mutilation" you see is a result of your wrong reading of what "non have fallen to chaos so far" really means. It doesn't mean some anti-Chaos-bleach that makes Chaos-corruption ping off harmlessly. A Sister or Grey Knight is not, per se, any more or less corruptable than .. dunno .. a Death Guard Space Marine.

The difference that makes them incorruptable IS this sort of extreme vigilance they take to avoid corruption. Always has been.

And the Setheno story proves your point (as does the Grey Knight blood story). Not one of those Sisters in her Order (or Grey Knights) turned to Chaos. Ergo, the fluff stands.

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2013/02/23 20:08:50


   
Made in gb
Hallowed Canoness





Between

I never mentioned the GK blood story. Despite what people say, it's actually a good representation - the Sisters were not corrupted in that fluff, despite being trapped on a daemon world. The GKs were just jerks about it.

I would continue to argue, but since you're including Grey Knights at the same time when discussing alternate means of incorruptibility, I'll accept your opinion as a possible interpretation. I choose to believe that incorruptible means incorruptible, but I acknowledge that "they kill their traitors immediately" is also acceptable.

One Canoness can't possible slaughter an entire Order by herself though, so there must have been something else going on there.

Also, I totally missed Peregine's post.

Where are the GK falling to chaos in the Ward dex? Point me at them. I have a copy right here. Go on. Give me a page reference.



"That time I only loaded the cannon with powder. Next time, I will fill it with jewels and diamonds and they will cut you to shrebbons!" - Nogbad the Bad. 
   
Made in gb
Longtime Dakkanaut




West Midlands (UK)

 Furyou Miko wrote:

Where are the GK falling to chaos in the Ward dex? Point me at them. I have a copy right here. Go on. Give me a page reference.


They are not*. But neither do they use the actual word "incorruptibility" much (nor do they use it in the old Sister dex I believe, though I might be wrong).

They always use formulations like "to this day, no Grey Knight / Sister etc.. has fallen, and none shall fall today!" The trait "incorruptibility" is always applied by people talking about it, on forums for example.

There is no "absolute" incorruptibility, mainly because it would make for a boring story and .. as said .. no drama. "Incorruptibility" for these factions in GW fluff is always the result, the consequence, the outcome of the actions they take (some of them perhaps even overkill). It is not a-priori given.


[edit]
*In fact, they actually do on page 9. The last test all Grey Knights have to pass after all physical changes, augmentations, training, etc.. is complete, is to face the temptations of Daemons. Not all pass.


This message was edited 4 times. Last update was at 2013/02/23 20:29:42


   
Made in gb
Fixture of Dakka







I suppose it depends on how many an 'order' of sisters is.

Are we talking about, say, a convent, where there's maybe 20-30 odd sisters and the boss? In that case, it doesn't seem too unreasonable for someone to go blam happy.

If we're talking about this person going through and eradicating hundreds of sisters due to 'corruption' then... That's all you need to do is add in a multilaser for Goto level stupidity.
   
Made in us
Douglas Bader






 Furyou Miko wrote:
Where are the GK falling to chaos in the Ward dex? Point me at them. I have a copy right here. Go on. Give me a page reference.


Page 15: The Bloodtide Returns. Just look at the events: Khorne unleashes chaos corruption and demons on the planet, the GK arrive and immediately slaughter the few remaining uncorrupted defenders, paint their armor with blood, and then slaughter everything else. And don't bother saying that they must be pure because they killed demons, Khorne is pleased by slaughter of all kinds, even when it is his own forces being killed. Even the most devout follower of Khorne couldn't have done better than the GK did.

And let's not forget the GK's habit of killing everyone who knows they exist. What better way to serve Khorne than to massacre entire planets because someone might be a threat to their secrecy?

There is no such thing as a hobby without politics. "Leave politics at the door" is itself a political statement, an endorsement of the status quo and an attempt to silence dissenting voices. 
   
Made in gb
Longtime Dakkanaut




West Midlands (UK)

 Compel wrote:
I suppose it depends on how many an 'order' of sisters is.

Are we talking about, say, a convent, where there's maybe 20-30 odd sisters and the boss? In that case, it doesn't seem too unreasonable for someone to go blam happy.

If we're talking about this person going through and eradicating hundreds of sisters due to 'corruption' then... That's all you need to do is add in a multilaser for Goto level stupidity.


/shrug

I can quote you the page. It's not much

The Death of Antagonis p. 48+


Certainly, by any measure other than a Space Marine one, she was physically imposing. She was one of the tallest humans Volos had ever seen. At two meters, she was the same height as Toharan. Then there was her reputation.

She had been Canoness Superior of the Order of the Piercing Thorn. Minoris though the order had been, its members had made their presence felt, melding a learning worthy of the Sisters Dialogous with a commando military philosophy. They had been a sharp blade in the flanks of the archenemy. Volos had heard many stories of the Piercing Thorn and what befell it. Some of those stories told of Setheno's leadership. It was such that she had been as a possible contender for the vacant seat of Abbess Sanctorum of the Convent Prioris on Terra. But then the taint had come. Exactly what its nature was, and how pervasive the corruption of the Piercing Thorn had been, Volos didn't know. The stories weren't about the taint. They were about the response to it. Whatever Setheno had uncovered, she had denounced her order to the Inquisition. She had demanded its extermination. The Orders Militant had placed themselves at her disposal, and, in numbers overwhelming, had slaughtered the Sisters of the Piercing Thorn down to the last novice. Setheno herself had exectued all of her prioresses. She had burned the order's fortress-abbey to the ground, and spread salt over its shattered, blackened stones.

She had refused posting to a different order. Instead, she had become Canoness Errant, a singular position of vaguely defined, but immense, punitive authority.


So it notes that it was "Minoris"

It should also be noted, that everything is told through the hearsay of the Space Marine main-character (Volos).

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2013/02/23 20:40:48


   
Made in us
Fixture of Dakka





West Michigan, deep in Whitebread, USA

Well, the idea of an entire Order of Sisters turning heretic, when their faith is so pure and strong that in their entire history only a single Sister, Miriael Sabathiel, has turned to chaos?


Is that actually a true fact? Or a speculation people are making made by reading the explanation in the first post?

Because when I read that, I got the impression that in this situation, Canoness Errant Stheno is made into the "other" kind of "bad guy" in 40K that the Imperial Religion makes possible - where instead of her actually "willfully turning to evil", she is so dogmatically following doctrine that she turns into a threat to anyone who doesn't think the way they do.

It's like how the puritan witch-hunters in the past in this world were actually the bad guys. They were following the will of their religion to the letter, but at the same time killing droves of innocent people.

Nothing in that explanation ever talks about how the Sisters actually turned heretic. Only that a person in power accused them of it.



"By this point I'm convinced 100% that every single race in the 40k universe have somehow tapped into the ork ability to just have their tech work because they think it should."  
   
Made in gb
Hallowed Canoness





Between

The part about only one Sister ever falling is a direct quote from the 2e Codex: Sisters of Battle (the only codex that actually has a good part of Sisters fluff in it, since Witch Hunters focussed mostly on the Hereticus fluff and the WD article only had a bare bones timeline, which didn't even mention Miriael).

Zwei - So really, yes, White Dwarf couldn't even get the Canoness' name right and its entirely possible she was deluded?



"That time I only loaded the cannon with powder. Next time, I will fill it with jewels and diamonds and they will cut you to shrebbons!" - Nogbad the Bad. 
   
Made in gb
Longtime Dakkanaut




West Midlands (UK)

 Furyou Miko wrote:
The part about only one Sister ever falling is a direct quote from the 2e Codex: Sisters of Battle (the only codex that actually has a good part of Sisters fluff in it, since Witch Hunters focussed mostly on the Hereticus fluff and the WD article only had a bare bones timeline, which didn't even mention Miriael).

Zwei - So really, yes, White Dwarf couldn't even get the Canoness' name right and its entirely possible she was deluded?


Still, 2nd Edition isn't exactly fresh or binding. Old fluff is old, even if you prefer it. 2nd edition had lots of other flaky bits.. not Rogue Trader wierd, but still.

I don't have the White Dwarf, cannot tell you.

In the book, Canoness Setheno certainly doesn't come across as deluded. She's very much the cool and level-head in the entire story. But she never actually talks about her background. As said, the only reference is that introspective article narrated through the main-Space Marine guy.



Spoiler:

In the book, it is actually the other Inquisitor Lettinger who is trying to get the Black Dragons ex-communicated for being.. well .. mutated freaks. Canoness Setheno is the one siding with them.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2013/02/23 22:51:13


   
Made in gb
Hallowed Canoness





Between

... I think I may die of shock from that spoiler.



"That time I only loaded the cannon with powder. Next time, I will fill it with jewels and diamonds and they will cut you to shrebbons!" - Nogbad the Bad. 
   
 
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