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I think it is. It’s the reason the Imperium after ten thousand years is actually losing group to the Traitor Legions. As mentioned in Void Stalker the only way the Imperials were able to deal with the Night Lords was basically to temporarily abandon the codex and have the Ultramarines fight as a Legion one last time, the only thing that allowed the Night Lords to escape was that the Ultramarines had surrendered their best ships to the Imperial Navy, and this was not even the Night Lords at their height this was the Night Lords without Curze that was still kicking their asses decades after his death.

The Black Legion is mocked for making up for their battlefield losses with Astarte’s from other Legions, cultist, and traitor Guard. The way I see it that’s a pretty smart move, he consolidated several shattered Legions into one giant legion as opposed to turning this into a thousand little Legions without the means to support them. The chapters often go unsupported and often go traitor because of little to no supervision or supplies.

Confirming my opinion is that Lorgar is told that letting Guilliman live will help Chaos achieve victory.

The strict adherence to any established combat doctrine is always going to be inhierantly bad because your enemies, after ten thousand years for example, are going to be able to plan and act accordingly.

But it's more of a setting piece than anything else. It sets up a grim dark world that is set in it's values. It helps establish the background of a decaying system that refuses to change and is slowly bringing about it's own ruin because of it's fear to advance.

This allows characters to stand out in fiction. A character that realizes the fundamental flaw with strict adherance and deviates accordingly allows the reader to place themself in the characters position as the only sane mind in a world gone mad.

The Space Marines have long since ceased to be humanity's line troops and first defenders. This role is now fulfilled by the Imperial Guard, with the Astartes being relegated to elite shock troops intended to support the Imperial war effort. The Codex Astartes is intended to formalise this role and help the Marines get the most out of it, whilst at the same time intentionally limiting their capabilities in other areas of warfare in order to curtail the chance of success of a second Horus Heresy, or any sort of Marines rebelling and/or going rogue with impunity.

Some Chapters do not appreciate their new role and struggle accepting it, chiefly due to pride. Roboute Guilliman knew better, and understood that in order for the Space Marines to fulfill their Emperor-intended destiny as protectors of humanity, they need to take a step back rather than forcing themselves into the limelight, and in doing so, create an even greater temptation for secession than exists already.

Yes, it's a terrible idea, and we've seen that it hasn't worked too well.

But that's the point of grimdark, as Savage pointed out above. If the Imperium fought intelligently the universe wouldn't be grimdark.

The strict adherence to any established combat doctrine is always going to be inhierantly bad because your enemies, after ten thousand years for example, are going to be able to plan and act accordingly.

But it's more of a setting piece than anything else. It sets up a grim dark world that is set in it's values. It helps establish the background of a decaying system that refuses to change and is slowly bringing about it's own ruin because of it's fear to advance.

This allows characters to stand out in fiction. A character that realizes the fundamental flaw with strict adherance

I'm not complaining about it, i'm just saying its yet another nail in the Emperors coffin.

The Space Marines have long since ceased to be humanity's line troops and first defenders.

You mean when humanity actually conquered territory as opposed to always being on the defence and merely surviving.

Some Chapters do not appreciate their new role and struggle accepting it, chiefly due to pride.

Mainly common sense

Roboute Guilliman knew better, and understood that in order for the Space Marines to fulfill their Emperor-intended destiny as protectors of humanity, they need to take a step back

So to protect humanity the elites of humanity had to be armed with crappy ships and undersupplied and broken and then put in a situation where they answered to no one but were just given a star system to loiter around.

The codex itself was not a bad idea. It was meant to reduce the risk of future rebellions and to reduce the damage caused by any such rebellions, and it succeeded in that respect. What is bad is people taking it verbatim. Guilliman never intended for that:

Rules of Engagement wrote:
No one, not even one such as I, can anticipate every single outcome of battle. My words are not some holy writ that must be obeyed. There must always be room for personal initiative on the battlefield. You and I both know how one spark of heroism can turn the tide of battle. That knowledge and personal experience can only be earned in blood, and the leader in the field must always be the ultimate arbiter of what course of action should be followed.

Rules of Engagement wrote:
In war and peace it will provide an invaluable repository of knowledge, but I do not wish for it to be regarded as a substitute for reason and initiative.

Sadly, among the current generation of Ultramarines, only Captain Uriel Ventris, his predecessor Captain Idaeus and AU Captain Titus seem to understand how their Primarch actually meant for the codex to be seen.

Captain Idaeus wrote:
Uriel, you know I respect you, and despite what others say, I believe you will soon command your own company. But you must accept that sometimes it is necessary for us to do things a little differently. Yes, the Codex Astartes teaches us the way of war, but it does not teach the hearts of men. Look around you. See the face of our warriors. Their blood sings with righteousness and their faith is strong because they have seen me walk through the fire with them, leading them in glorious battle. Is not a little risk to me worth such reward?

Captain Titus wrote:
The Codex Astartes is a set of rules. They guide us, shape us as Ultramarines, teach us to hold duty and honor sacred above all. But how we choose to live with those rules is the true test of a Space Marine.

. Guilliman never intended for that

Lorgar gets the last laugh then, his Legion still remembers what he said.

ZSO, SAHAAL wrote:

. Guilliman never intended for that

Lorgar gets the last laugh then, his Legion still remembers what he said.

As long as people like Ventris, Idaeus, and AU Titus exist, then hope still endures

ZSO, SAHAAL wrote:You mean when humanity actually conquered territory as opposed to always being on the defence and merely surviving.

Yes, shortly before it all tumbled down because of too much power in the hands of certain people.
Exactly what the Codex Astartes is meant to prevent.

ZSO, SAHAAL wrote:Mainly common sense

Heh. I'm sure it's just coincidence that those Chapters also tend to be the most unreasonable and isolationist ones, instead dominated by weird traditions.

ZSO, SAHAAL wrote:So to protect humanity the elites of humanity had to be armed with crappy ships and undersupplied and broken and then put in a situation where they answered to no one but were just given a star system to loiter around.

The ships of the Space Marines excelt at one single thing, and that is landing their troops. That's all they are meant to do, given the role mentioned above.
And officially, Space Marines -do- answer to a higher authority. That they often don't is a result of both the Imperium's complicated web of bureaucracy and relationships as well as some Chapters' pride.
It is noteworthy that it also seems as if the Chapters least likely to "play ball" are the ones who continue to defy embracing the Codex Astartes.

The Codex Astartes is a set of rules. They guide us....shape us as Ultramarines...teach us how to hold duty and honor sacred above all. But how we live with those rules is the true test of a Space Marine...
-Captain Titus, Ultramarines 2nd Company

unfortunately, Indrick Boreale didn't know this and used the worst manuver the codex has.. STEHL REHN

Horrible idea? no!

Horrible idea misinterpreted by almost every "Codex" chapter? YES!

But Lynata, what did "codex" prevent? It only made legions decentrelized (weaker), while 99% of those successor chapters still pay homage to their parent chapter and their primarch...
Let say that "I" wants to erase some first founding chapter (*read UM - epitome of codex*), do you think their successors would stand on idle?
.

 DarthMarko wrote:
But Lynata, what did "codex" prevent? It only made legions decentrelized (weaker), while 99% of those successor chapters still pay homage to their parent chapter and their primarch...
Let say that "I" wants to erase some first founding chapter (*read UM - epitome of codex*), do you think their successors would stand on idle?

Well, if not, they are at least easier to take down this way.

I see the Codex Astartes as a mixture between "control mechanism" and a sort of "field manual for force multipliers", with emphasis on the former. It has ensured 10.000 years of relative stability, after the original Legion concept didn't even last 200 before plunging the Imperium into darkness. I'd call that a testament to its success. Perhaps the Emperor's greatest mistake was not to implement such a set of rules in the first place - who knows, he might have still been around, instead of being a shriveled husk slaved to the Golden Throne.

The Dark Angels, Blood Angels, and the Ultramarines are legions in all but name. The same goes for the Space Wolves. I doubt the Inquisition is stupid enough to politically alienate any of the founding chapters and risk a whole legion going up in flames.

EDIT: They probably won't rebel though. More like refuse to help the Inquisition for anything short of a crusade.

Well, that depends on how said Chapters behave. As the Index Astartes suggests, there is a line that's not to be crossed - it's just set a bit different for each Chapter, all depending on their history, characteristics, proofs of loyalty, responsibility, etc ...

Also, how are those three Chapters "Legions in all but name"? Or is that merely referring to the connections they have to any Successor Chapters? If so, that's a fairly nebulous statement at best.

As a tool for preventing power concentration, the codex astartes has failed, because half of all space marines are descended from ultramarine stock and (whether officially or not) are beholden to whoever leads the Ultramarines. Hypothetically, if Marneus Calgar ever fell to Chaos and even half of the ultramarine successors went with him (which is a very conservative estimate, given how in the HH most marines followed their primarchs to Chaos), that would mean at least 1/4 of all loyalist marines falling to Chaos.

As an organizational tool, it's decentralization of command structures is a disaster, because every chapter just does whatever it considers most important. There is a reason that the chain of command exists.

As a tactical handbook, the codex astartes probably works well, so long as it is not treated as being set in stone (which sadly, most ultramarines currently do).

But if we're going to talk about tactical handbooks, I want to see the Alpha Legion's.

 Lynata wrote:


Also, how are those three Chapters "Legions in all but name"? Or is that merely referring to the connections they have to any Successor Chapters? If so, that's a fairly nebulous statement at best.

Pretty much. But the Dark Angels' descendants and their Chapter Masters all answer to Supreme Grand Master Azrael. So yes, I'd say they're a legion in all but name.

 Admiral Valerian wrote:

 Lynata wrote:


Also, how are those three Chapters "Legions in all but name"? Or is that merely referring to the connections they have to any Successor Chapters? If so, that's a fairly nebulous statement at best.

Pretty much. But the Dark Angels' descendants and their Chapter Masters all answer to Supreme Grand Master Azrael. So yes, I'd say they're a legion in all but name.

Don't forget BA conclaves...

I think that chapter spreading makes "I" job more difficult if they want to wipe them clean...True, they are not so cohesive as original legion, but their ideals are still the same...
So my subjective opinion is that "30k UM" would be easier to clean than "UM 40k"..
So I agree with Valerian - they are all legions in a way, if you climb up to hierarchy...
.
.

That's not quite how it is explained in GW's fluff. The Inquisition doesn't seem to have much of a problem recruiting Marine Chapters to act against other Marine Chapters. Granted, it seems they generally prefer tapping the Sisters of Battle for full-scale purges, but still there have been many incidents where the Inquisition's demands to a Chapter were enforced at the barrel of an Astartes boltgun.

"Upon declaring such a Chapter Excommunicatus, an Inquisitor will attempt to determine the root cause of the rebellion in order to gauge the potential obstacles to neutralising it. Should he suspect that Chaos as the reason for the chapter's fall from grace, the Grey Knights may be mobilised. Should doctrinal heresy prove the immediate cause then elite of the Adepta Sororitas may be the only force considered capable of prosecuting a War of Faith against the wayward Chapter. On rare occasions, alien intervention may be suspected, and the highly skilled servants of the Ordo Xenos brought in to investigate. Such an event is of such import as to attract the attention of the High Lords of Terra themselves, and no Inquisitor would bring such accusations without very convincing evidence indeed.

On other occasions, it may be sufficient for Inquisitor to approach the Masters of other Chapters. To a Space Marine the very notion of a brother exceeding his Emperor-given mandate is anathema, it is to disobey the direct word of the Emperor himself, and so a simple word in the ear of a Chapter Master may bring about the censure or outright subjugation of the Chapter in question. Space Marine Chapter Masters and Inquisitors are individuals well placed to appreciate the devastating consequence of galaxy-wide sedition and rebellion, and have on many occasions worked in concert to quell such threats before any other authorities become aware of them."
- Index Astartes

In general, it seems to me that this supposed bond between the Chapters is, at least in many cases, a bit overrated by you guys. The Space Marines are not one big, happy family of battle-brothers all standing ready to help out one another regardless of what happened.
Maybe it just depends on which Chapter you're asking, but I'd assume an Inquisitor would be smart enough to look for a Chapter that is not related to the mission at hand to carry out his or her orders.

An example incident would be the fate of the Relictors:

"However, it was only a matter of time before others discovered the Relictors' practise of using Chaos weapons in battle. A cell of Inquisitors backed up by the fleets of no less than four Chapters of Space Marines and an Emperor class battleship descended upon the Relictors' fortress-monastery and demanded they hand over De Marche and all recovered Chaos weaponry or be destroyed. Faced with destruction, the Chapter had no option but to obey. As penance for dealing with heretical weaponry, the Chapter was despatched on a century long penitent crusade. De Marche was taken by the Inquisitors and executed as a heretic.

After the Inquisiton censured the Relictors for the actions of Inquisitor De Marche, the Chapter lost its feudal rights to Torva Minoris, which meant they could no longer recruit from amongst its feral tribes. The Relictors were forced to gather potential acolytes from amongst the populations they encountered during their penitent crusade. The Inquisiton has ruled that no Aduptus Astartes Chapter may recruit from Torva Minoris, and it is believed the Ordo Malleus keeps a close watch on the world to ensure its ruling is adhered to. The superstitious natives of Torva Minoris now believe the God-Emperor has forsaken them, and every year their ceremonies of abasement grow more extreme in their attempts to atone for whatever fault has caused the emissaries of the Emperor to turn from them."

Like it or not, Space Marine Chapters have been purged in the past, and lo and behold, the Imperium is still standing. There was no galaxywide rebellion of all Astartes crying out in protest. Although that, too, is perhaps thanks to the Codex Astartes.

What doctrinal heresy? Space Marines don't worship the Emperor. The Space Wolves sneer at the Ecclesiarchy (IIRC they even shot down a ship full of missionaries for trespassing) and Bjorn of all people pokes historical fun at the title "God-Emperor". In the DoW II novel, the Blood Ravens are shown as atheist; and yet they are among the few Chapters who know of the Grey Knight's existence (the Kronus campaign had Grey Knight squads deployed alongside Blood Raven forces and yet the Blood Ravens still remember said campaign) and possess considerable standing among the Inquisition seeing as after Angelos and Diomedes purged the Chapter they were apparently spared from being sent on a Penitence Crusade.

The Inquisition isn't responsible for religious heresy anyways, as far as I know - that'd be the Ecclesiarchy's domain alone. No, I think "doctrinal heresy" refers to things like deviating from the Codex Astartes too far, refusing to submit to geneseed testing, refusing to follow orders from a higher level of authority, incorporating local traditions into Chapter culture deemed too dangerous/weird/inhumane ... stuff like that. You know, not just bending but breaking the rules (-> doctrines). I'm fairly certain such things would be judged on a case-by-case basis, weighing the deed against the Chapter's reputation and strategic importance ... and the Inquisitor's own influence. Politics and all.

The Index Astartes has a snippet about the Sons of Malice, that were attacked by one Inquisitor Pietas who observed the Chapter's victory rites and was shocked by "what she saw as practices verging on the cannibalistic". Pietas was of the Ordo Hereticus and assaulted the Chapter's stronghold with a Sororitas strike team, so I suppose this is an example for "doctrinal heresy".

The 3E Witch Hunter Codex also mentions the following possible scenarios that could lead the Ordo Hereticus and/or the Sisterhood to attack a Marine Chapter:

The Chapter's Chaplains are preaching an interpretation of the Imperial Creed deemed heretical, and the Witch Hunters attempt to call the wayward Chapter to account for its beliefs.

It has long been suspected that certain of the Adeptus Astartes Chapters' gene-seed has grown debased and impure since the glorious days of the Great Crusade. The Witch Hunters attempt to gain a sample of the gene-seed, but the Space Marines aren't so keen to cooperate.

The Chapter Master has unexpectedly manifested prodigious psychic powers, calling into question the psychic screening processes of the Chapter. The Witch Hunters cannot allow an entire Chapter of rogue psykers to come into being, and resolve to wipe them out before it's too late.

The Chapter's Librarians are able to call upon psychic powers unseen in those of any other Space Marine force, leading the Ordo Hereticus to believe that they are trafficking in knowledge no loyal servant of the Emperor has any right delving into.

Many Space Marine Chapters are notoriously independent, and often follow their own agendas with little or no recourse to Imperial policy. One such Chapter has refused to give aid when requested, resulting in the loss of a strategically vital world, and the Ordo Hereticus resolve to bring the Chapter Master to justice.

The Chapter recruits its aspirants from a feral world, and it has recently been discovered that the natives' gene pool is subtly but irreparably corrupted, and has been for millennia. The Ordo Hereticus is not prepared to risk that the Chapter may have inherited the mutations of its homeworld.

Not all but at least some of these things might fall under "doctrinal heresy". As far as I know, the term has never been clearly defined, though... in fact, I've never heard it anywhere else. Marines being treated like bad guys (be it just or unjust) isn't exactly a common topic in the fluff, even though it's an interesting subject.

 Lynata wrote:

The Chapter's Chaplains are preaching an interpretation of the Imperial Creed deemed heretical, and the Witch Hunters attempt to call the wayward Chapter to account for its beliefs.

That's an interesting point, considering that one time they did so during the Age of Apostasy they ended up being vindicated.

It has long been suspected that certain of the Adeptus Astartes Chapters' gene-seed has grown debased and impure since the glorious days of the Great Crusade. The Witch Hunters attempt to gain a sample of the gene-seed, but the Space Marines aren't so keen to cooperate.

This is rather tricky, seeing as the Adeptus Mechanicus claims responsibility for gene-seed testing. The Inquisition could end up in political wrangling not just with the Astartes, but with the Mechanicum as well, another semi-autonomous organization.

The Chapter's Librarians are able to call upon psychic powers unseen in those of any other Space Marine force, leading the Ordo Hereticus to believe that they are trafficking in knowledge no loyal servant of the Emperor has any right delving into.

Didn't the Deathwatch: Honor the Chapter and other official publications issue lists of chapter/s-unique psychic powers?

Many Space Marine Chapters are notoriously independent, and often follow their own agendas with little or no recourse to Imperial policy. One such Chapter has refused to give aid when requested, resulting in the loss of a strategically vital world, and the Ordo Hereticus resolve to bring the Chapter Master to justice.

This would depend on the Chapter. Chapters with standing like the Space Wolves (Months of Shame), Blood Ravens (Blood Ravens civil war), and so on have been shown to be given preferential treatment.

 Lynata wrote:


Like it or not, Space Marine Chapters have been purged in the past, and lo and behold, the Imperium is still standing. There was no galaxywide rebellion of all Astartes crying out in protest. Although that, too, is perhaps thanks to the Codex Astartes.

Wait..the Imperium is still standing???
This is not about someone liking it. If it would be, I would say Lynata likes the purgation of Chapters too much.

Codex Astartes limits the power of singular figures, why would it lend the power it just cut to another person? The theme is to keep the balance of power since no one is deemd fit for the role the Emperor had.

Back in the day of index astartes, Primarchs left the realm of man because they did't want to be demi-gods ( IIRC Vulcan ).



The codex as pointed out from the quotes of Rules of engagement isn't a set of laws set in stone. The codex is also a copy of a copy of a copy and I think this makes it obvious there may exist a few differences...
So you can't accuse a marine for 'doctrinal heresy' and base this on the codex.

( Except you are an ultramarine and your name is sicarius...)

BoT:
No one can force the codex or its appliance not even the overestimated =I=. The use of this tome was agreed upon ( or a special deal made in case of the IF and the SW ) at the time of second founding. Its the Word of the Primarchs of the respective Space Marine Legions that keeps this codex accepted. Tradition is important.

The idea to have a collection of standards, a handbook, isn't a horrible idea. To enforce it as some sort of law is.

Admiral Valerian wrote:That's an interesting point, considering that one time they did so during the Age of Apostasy they ended up being vindicated.

The Inquisition was busy elsewhere at that time. In fact, there wasn't even an Ordo Hereticus around.
Also, Imperial Creed does not necessarily need to carry any religious undertones. On the most basic level, it is nothing but the declaration of human superiority and condemnation of alien influences. It has found its way into what the Ecclesiarchy preaches, but that's about it. I agree that the usage of the term is a bit irritating here, however, for most often it is indeed applied to church stuff.

Guess it goes to show that the Space Marines are religious in all but name, after all, with all those chaplains and the praying.

Admiral Valerian wrote:This is rather tricky, seeing as the Adeptus Mechanicus claims responsibility for gene-seed testing. The Inquisition could end up in political wrangling not just with the Astartes, but with the Mechanicum as well, another semi-autonomous organization.

The Inquisition stands aside from the High Lords, whereas the Mechanicus is situated beneath them, so it's clear who is more independent - at least officially, for the Inquisition does not have much "real" power but rather is dependent on other organisations agreeing to help them. It's what makes the entire playing field so interesting.

But that aside ... no, gene-testing has always been a joint effort. Index Astartes, whilst discussing the Badab War, mentions the Adeptus Mechanicus filing complaints about the Astral Claws being slow in submitting their gene-seed for testing, which were ultimately investigated by the Inquisition.

"Every year each Space Marine chapter is required to surrender a portion of its gene-seed stocks to the Adeptus Mechanicus. Here it is held in trust and maintained on behalf of the High Lords of Terra, and, therefore, for the Emperor. There are only two locations in the Imperium considered secure enough to hold the gene-seed. These would represent the most priceless of targets should the Traitor Legions learn of them. There are very few obligations enforceable against the Adeptus Astartes, but this requirement is absolute. The reasons for this insistence upon regular examination and purify testing is rooted in the events of the Horus Heresy, and were borne out by the circumstances leading up to the Badab Uprising, one of the catalysts for which was Lufgt Huron's refusal to submit the Astral Claws' gene-seed for routine purity testing."
"[...] By taking direct control of the genetic stocks, the Adepts on Earth could ultimately control the Space Marines. Now they alone had the power to destroy or create Space Marine armies at will."

And from the old Rogue Trader rulebook - whose SoB-related fluff was reaffirmed in the 3E WH Codex Designer's Notes:

"Every single day, squads of Battle-Sisters descend upon unsuspecting departments of the Adeptus Terra, administering genetic and psychological tests in order to expose wrong-doers, mutants and malcontents. Whole companies of Battle-Sisters travel to war-zones, to the fortress monasteries of the Adeptus Astartes, to the fleets and to the scattered worlds of the Imperium. No-one is safe from their vigilance."

Admiral Valerian wrote:Didn't the Deathwatch: Honor the Chapter and other official publications issue lists of chapter/s-unique psychic powers?

That I don't know (only ever read the core rulebook) - but even if, that must not mean much. The Deathwatch RPG cannot even agree with GW on whether the Deathwatch should be an ally or a part of the Inquisition, and in general FFG's RPG deviates from studio fluff on a number of occasions.
That being said, unique psychic powers must not be a bad thing. It all depends on whether the Inquisition thinks it's okay or a no-go. Plus, as already mentioned, a Chapter's status as well as the respective Inquisitor's, or that of Inquisitors that happen to be friends of a Chapter and may move to block an investigation.

Admiral Valerian wrote:This would depend on the Chapter. Chapters with standing like the Space Wolves (Months of Shame), Blood Ravens (Blood Ravens civil war), and so on have been shown to be given preferential treatment.

Of course it would depend on the Chapter - I've said so in my last post. The Space Wolves are a special case, though, as from where I stand they have long since crossed the line. Plot armour as necessitated by gamer popularity will continue to protect them from harm for the future, regardless of how many "middle finger" events get added to their timeline. Personally, I think the writers should've just stopped doing so - it only dilutes the setting and was not really necessary in the first place. If they want to portray a Marine Chapter as making enemies all across the Imperium, they should do so with one they can bear actually being subjected to the consequences that, by all rights, should be inevitable.

1hadhq wrote:Wait..the Imperium is still standing???
This is not about someone liking it. If it would be, I would say Lynata likes the purgation of Chapters too much.

Heheh, I know what you mean - I just feel like having to point out things like these, as to me it seems as if posters sometimes put on the rose-tinted glasses whenever it comes to the Space Marines. I pretty much see myself as the counter-point to that movement. The nagging stickler-for-detail who jumps up yelling "7 feet!" whenever people throw around numbers of 8 and above regarding Astartes height.

1hadhq wrote:Codex Astartes limits the power of singular figures, why would it lend the power it just cut to another person?

I'm afraid I didn't quite get that. What other person?

1hadhq wrote:The codex as pointed out from the quotes of Rules of engagement isn't a set of laws set in stone. The codex is also a copy of a copy of a copy and I think this makes it obvious there may exist a few differences...
So you can't accuse a marine for 'doctrinal heresy' and base this on the codex.

That depends, as I'm sure there are some important details which are uniform. And if they aren't, the Inquisition and/or the High Lords may still think differently. Ultimately it matters little what the accused has to say. Ignorance of the law is no excuse, as the saying goes.

Thanks to a White Dwarf article, we only know that the Sisters of Battle have purged several Marine Chapters in the past, and according to Index Astartes this apparently happens almost exclusively when "doctrinal heresy" is the crime.
I too would like to know more about the exact circumstances of such excommunications, but I'm not keeping my hopes up... To my knowledge, the only example where we actually know the cause were the Sons of Malice and their eating habits.

 Lynata wrote:


And from the old Rogue Trader rulebook - whose SoB-related fluff was reaffirmed in the 3E WH Codex Designer's Notes:

"Every single day, squads of Battle-Sisters descend upon unsuspecting departments of the Adeptus Terra, administering genetic and psychological tests in order to expose wrong-doers, mutants and malcontents. Whole companies of Battle-Sisters travel to war-zones, to the fortress monasteries of the Adeptus Astartes, to the fleets and to the scattered worlds of the Imperium. No-one is safe from their vigilance."

I don't think this is valid anymore. AFAIK, 3rd Edition was uber-grimdark, so much so that it actually seemed like a joke, and later editions tried to balance things out. Fluff-wise, I think the Arbites oversee the 'purity' of the civilian departments of the Imperium, the Commissariat the military, while the Astartes cooperate with the Mechanicum for the same purpose.

For one thing, I don't see Sisters being allowed to set foot on Titan for a surprise inspection; it'd probably end with the Sisters being shot full of bolt rounds, and that's assuming they even get to land. And when someone high up complains...all they'll get is Malcador's legacy protecting the Grey Knights' secrets. Something similar would probably happen if they tried to poke around the Dark Angels and Co., and it already has happened with the Space Wolves and the Blood Angels and Co. (IIRC, many people in the Inquisition consider the Blood Angels and Co. a step away from falling, and only Sanguinius' legacy and their standing keeps them from being declared renegades).

And on another note, factoring in that Sisters are technically part of the Ecclesiarchy and Astartes are independent of the Ecclesiarchy, well, that isn't going to end well...

Admiral Valerian wrote:Didn't the Deathwatch: Honor the Chapter and other official publications issue lists of chapter/s-unique psychic powers?

That I don't know (only ever read the core rulebook) - but even if, that must not mean much. The Deathwatch RPG cannot even agree with GW on whether the Deathwatch should be an ally or a part of the Inquisition, and in general FFG's RPG deviates from studio fluff on a number of occasions.

Personally, as long as it's a GW/GW-affiliated publication, I'll accept it as a fluff guideline.

Admiral Valerian wrote:This would depend on the Chapter. Chapters with standing like the Space Wolves (Months of Shame), Blood Ravens (Blood Ravens civil war), and so on have been shown to be given preferential treatment.

Of course it would depend on the Chapter - I've said so in my last post. The Space Wolves are a special case, though, as from where I stand they have long since crossed the line. Plot armour as necessitated by gamer popularity will continue to protect them from harm for the future, regardless of how many "middle finger" events get added to their timeline. Personally, I think the writers should've just stopped doing so - it only dilutes the setting and was not really necessary in the first place. If they want to portray a Marine Chapter as making enemies all across the Imperium, they should do so with one they can bear actually being subjected to the consequences that, by all rights, should be inevitable.

Well, the Space Wolves have maverick loyalists as their hat, so it can't be helped

The Codex Astartes is, like so many things in history, a needed event with negative outcomes.

Without it it would be likely that the IoM would have collapsed under in fighting, but with it the military might of the IoM is deminished.

 Lynata wrote:


Tas to me it seems as if posters sometimes put on the rose-tinted glasses whenever it comes to the Space Marines.

Thought these rose tinted glasses aren't a space marine feature but common amongst fans of every little subgroup in 40k.

 Lynata wrote:
And if they aren't, the Inquisition and/or the High Lords may still think differently.

Without a "master copy" ? Whatever they imagine the codex says isn't important if they want evidence of real failure instead of blackmail.
Insignium astartes IIRC has chapters at a almost violent disagreement what the codex says or who got the "real" copy of it.

 Lynata wrote:

I too would like to know more about the exact circumstances of such excommunications, but I'm not keeping my hopes up... To my knowledge, the only example where we actually know the cause were the Sons of Malice and their eating habits.

We have more than 25 foundings. Lots of chapters KIA. Dozens lost in transit. Too many turned. But only a few purged.
Chances to see more about this aren't great.
As you know it is left out of marine codices for a while and the faction responsible for these excommunications is dropping beneath the radar. The risk for them to get rewritten like crons is rising...
OTOH 6th ed isn't as weird as parts of 5th ed so this may end well.

Admiral Valerian wrote:I don't think this is valid anymore. AFAIK, 3rd Edition was uber-grimdark, so much so that it actually seemed like a joke, and later editions tried to balance things out. Fluff-wise, I think the Arbites oversee the 'purity' of the civilian departments of the Imperium, the Commissariat the military, while the Astartes cooperate with the Mechanicum for the same purpose.

Well, of course it's up to you alone how you prefer to see things - me, I'll continue to go by what GW prints in their studio material, and this includes older fluff as long as it's not contradicted. I don't see 3E being more grimdark than 6E, tbh.

Admiral Valerian wrote:And on another note, factoring in that Sisters are technically part of the Ecclesiarchy and Astartes are independent of the Ecclesiarchy, well, that isn't going to end well...

The Sisters are also the Chamber Militant of the Ordo Hereticus of the Inquisition.
Make of that what you will.

Admiral Valerian wrote:Personally, as long as it's a GW/GW-affiliated publication, I'll accept it as a fluff guideline.

Litmus test: does that apply to Mr. Goto's novels as well?

Admiral Valerian wrote:Well, the Space Wolves have maverick loyalists as their hat, so it can't be helped

Oh, I'm not complaining about them acting like they do. By all means, if the writers think that's how it should be and if that's their character ...
I'm complaining about the lack of consequences.
Popularity should never be abused as a get-out-of-jail-free card allowing someone or something to get away with anything.

1hadhq wrote:Thought these rose tinted glasses aren't a space marine feature but common amongst fans of every little subgroup in 40k.

Absolutely.
It just seems that it happens more frequently with Marine fans. Although I will admit that this might just be the result of them being way more numerous than any other subgroup.
On the other hand, I am also sure that at least in part it is because that specific subgroup has been pandered to by numerous novels or computer games all focusing on a "larger than life" representation of their favourite faction, so much so that it has led many to accept them as "this is how it's supposed to be". Do you have an idea how many posters I've seen claiming that the Movie Marines rules are meant to represent Astartes as they should be, even though the article itself is very clear about that not being the case? Sometimes I'm under the impression that a large number of Marine fans skips half the stuff they read.

1hadhq wrote:Without a "master copy"? Whatever they imagine the codex says isn't important if they want evidence of real failure instead of blackmail.

What qualifies as evidence and what does not lies in the eye of the beholder, too. If the Inquisition thinks you're guilty, you're guilty. I don't think they lose a night's sleep over such things. "A plea of innocence is guilty of wasting my time."
I imagine that's why the Inquisition holds a conclave over a matter as grave as Chapter's excommunication, though - if it was a matter of pointing at an ancient document and showing a clear violation, they wouldn't have to vote on whether to purge or not.

"Another, thankfully rare task of these joint forces is to hold in check the power of the Space Marine Chapters. The relationship between the Adeptus Astartes and the Adeptus Ministorum is at times strained, as some Chapters adhere to their own views of the Imperial Creed. In any other organisation this would result in excommunication, but the Space Marines are of course a rather special case. However, the Ordo Hereticus still maintains a watch over those Chapters who they suspect of having diverged too far from approved dogma. In such cases, a Conclave of Inquisitors will decide upon a course of action, and should an armed response be required this will often be entrusted to the Adepta Sororitas."
- CJ #49

Jumping into this one a little late but hey. After the Guilliman reforms and the creation of the Codex Astartes, Marine ships are all about the landing of the troops and then supporting of them there after.
The Imperial Navy is the high seas fleet and the marine chapters use version of assault carriers and support ships.
It is interesting to note the Navy's attitude toward some chapters having Nova class frigates in their fleets as the Navy sees this as a breach of the separation of their roles.
The Nova class frigates are armed with Lance weapons and that makes them dangerous at range to the fleet should a chapter decide to break with the IoM.

The Nova Class Frigate is a Space Marine Lance boat, much like the Firestorm Class Frigate in the Imperial Navy. It is a much more controversial ship however, because it does not follow the Codex Astartes. It is a pure-breed warship, it can not land troops, or transport them to other ships. It is ineffective in planetary assault also, but a very capable capital ship hunter. Both the Imperial Navy and Inquisition have taken issue with the class, as it encroaches on the duties of the Imperial Navy, and upsets the balance of power within the Imperium, giving too much to the Adeptus Astartes. Due to this, the Nova remains a rare sight in the fleets of the Space Marines.1
It is armed with a single turret-mounted lance in the prow of the ship, able to fire to the sides, and in front of the ship, and two small weapons batteries, also turret mounted. However, its engines are much more powerful than a Firestorms' making the Nova almost twice as fast as a cruiser of the Imperial navy. This speed and manoeuvrability allow the Nova class to get to favourable firing positions, deliver the lance armament's bite, and withdraw before the enemy can react to bring their guns to bear on the Nova.

The imperium couldn't survive if they repealed the codex astartes, and then someone turned traitor. It would make them outnumbered by the chaos marines, on top of every other thing wanting to kill them.

 Lynata wrote:

Admiral Valerian wrote:I don't think this is valid anymore. AFAIK, 3rd Edition was uber-grimdark, so much so that it actually seemed like a joke, and later editions tried to balance things out. Fluff-wise, I think the Arbites oversee the 'purity' of the civilian departments of the Imperium, the Commissariat the military, while the Astartes cooperate with the Mechanicum for the same purpose.

Well, of course it's up to you alone how you prefer to see things - me, I'll continue to go by what GW prints in their studio material, and this includes older fluff as long as it's not contradicted. I don't see 3E being more grimdark than 6E, tbh.

Admiral Valerian wrote:And on another note, factoring in that Sisters are technically part of the Ecclesiarchy and Astartes are independent of the Ecclesiarchy, well, that isn't going to end well...

The Sisters are also the Chamber Militant of the Ordo Hereticus of the Inquisition.
Make of that what you will.

Ultimately that would depend on the Chapter they're investigating in question. If it's Grey Knights, Space Wolves, or any other Chapter with standing, Ordo Hereticus or not, the Sisters are gonna have a bad time.

Admiral Valerian wrote:Personally, as long as it's a GW/GW-affiliated publication, I'll accept it as a fluff guideline.

Litmus test: does that apply to Mr. Goto's novels as well?

Oh, those novels. Well, I just ignore the typos and others (poisonous Shuriken and projectile Wraith Cannon among others, seriously ) and go with it. The stories themselves aren't that bad, and I really liked how he portrayed the Harlequins in DoW among other things.

Admiral Valerian wrote:Well, the Space Wolves have maverick loyalists as their hat, so it can't be helped

Oh, I'm not complaining about them acting like they do. By all means, if the writers think that's how it should be and if that's their character ...
I'm complaining about the lack of consequences.
Popularity should never be abused as a get-out-of-jail-free card allowing someone or something to get away with anything.

Well, that's just it, isn't it? Space Wolves are supposed to get away with being mavericks, otherwise, they wouldn't be Space Wolves anymore.