Switch Theme:

Could you make me two bolt action lists?  [RSS] Share on facebook Share on Twitter Submit to Reddit
»
Author Message
Advert


Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you:
  • No adverts like this in the forums anymore.
  • Times and dates in your local timezone.
  • Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance.
  • Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely.
  • Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net.
If you are already a member then feel free to login now.




Made in fi
Battlewagon Driver with Charged Engine





somewhere in the northern side of the beachball

I have interest in bolt action but I would like to first get an idea how many models I would need for a two 500 point forces. I also forces to be balanced againt each other so they don't need to be top tier builds or too historically accurate.

First army should be themed as a finnish winter army. Finnish were a bit mixed gear force but there 2 things I'd like include. First I want infantry with skies and some sort of rules to match them. Second I would really much like to have BT-2 included (this might require some house ruling).
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Winter_War#Weapons

Other army should be german with stug IV. Shouldn't be too hard to do. My only worry is that stug is going to be near useless against infantry based finnish.

Thx in advance.

Every time I hear "in my opinion" or "just my opinion" makes me want to strangle a puppy. People use their opinions as a shield that other poeple can't critisize and that is bs.

If you can't defend or won't defend your opinion then that "opinion" is bs. Stop trying to tip-toe and defend what you believe in. 
   
Made in us
Hooded Inquisitorial Interrogator





New York State

I'd be happy to take a crack at it. The Finnish armylist would need to be built from the ground up, but that's not as difficult as it might seem, since all the armylists have a lot in common with each other, and all I'd really need to do is make an entry for the lieutenant (same across all armies), the infantry squad (similar across all armies), and one or two nation-specific elements (ie the BT-2). Does this sound about right?

500 points is a pretty small army- I figure, one german lieutenant, two squads of 8-10 men with a moderate loadout, and a STUG will clock in at 500 points. The Finn army will either be a bit larger, or contain an additional element, since the BT-2 will be a lot closer in value to an Armored Car than to a STUG.

I'll look at some resources I've got back at my apartment and cook something up, and post what I come up with this evening/tonight.

   
Made in fi
Battlewagon Driver with Charged Engine





somewhere in the northern side of the beachball

The finnish army doesn't need to be a completely new army with it's own special rules. Finns some companies traning with germans and most of the equipment is captured from the soviets. I'm ok swapping bt-2 to t-34 as there isn't really a model for bt-2.

The small points size is mostly because I'd like to everything done within a month (converting snow gear might take time), doesn't cost alot and I can trasport everything easily.

Every time I hear "in my opinion" or "just my opinion" makes me want to strangle a puppy. People use their opinions as a shield that other poeple can't critisize and that is bs.

If you can't defend or won't defend your opinion then that "opinion" is bs. Stop trying to tip-toe and defend what you believe in. 
   
Made in us
Hooded Inquisitorial Interrogator





New York State

I ended up making the lists at 550, since the Germans really seemed to suffer by having half their army invested into a single tank. 550 gave the germans a little more breathing room, and allowed the Finns to pick up a Maxim, which will hopefully help offset the additional firepower of the German LMGs. I think the lists are fairly balanced; the Germans have less boots on the ground, and don't have the support weapons that the Finns enjoy. However, they have the tremendous firepower of the Stug's Heavy AT gun, which will paste 1d3 infantrymen per hit, maing it especially good against small, dug in teams like the AT rifle, MMG, and Mortar, not to mention the fact that it's capable of coring the BT-2 in a single hit... if it can hit. The Finns, on the other hand, have some AT spread throughout their list, though it all lacks the knockout punch of the Stug. The AT rifle can add pin markers to the Stug, and might be able to cause light damage if it can hit the side or the rear. The HMG can likewise put pins on the Stug, though it's only chance of doing any concrete damage is if it manages to hit the rear. The BT-2's light AT gun is a more credible threat, and coupled with the tank's speed side and rear hits are a real possibility. Finally, the infantry are equipped with AT grenades, and can use them to damage the Stug. All in all, the Finns lack the ability to get a one hit kill on the Stug, but have a number of tools in their arsenal to whittle away at it. I think these lists are pretty balanced.

546 Germans, Regular
60 Lt, nco, smgs
128 10 men, SMG, LMG, pzf
128 10 men, SMG, LMG, pzf
230 Stug IV

Bonus! In 28mm, Can be assembled from a single plastic German Infantry box from Warlord, plus a Stug IV.


548 Finns (Counts-as Soviets, Regular)
50 Lt
134 Infantry Squad, 9 men, 2 SMG, LMG, AT Grenades
134 Infantry Squad, 9 men, 2 SMG, LMG, AT Grenades
120 BA-10 (BT-2)
60 Medium Mortar, Spotter
30 Anti-Tank Rifle (Lahti)
70 Heavy Machine Gun

The BT-2 could also be run as a T-70 light tank, it costs 5 more points than the BA-10 armored car I counted it as, but those points could be freed up by dropping a single SMG from somewhere in the list.

Not a great deal of 28mm Finns out there. Baker Company has some good metals that come in at ~£1 per trooper, though the mortar, AT gun, and MMG would have to come from another range, such as Warlord or Black Tree's soviets (Brigade Games seems to have a 28mm Finn Maxim). BT-2 seems to be available in 1:72 via Unimodels. Unfortunately, the Finn army is going to be more of a PITA to assemble than the Germans, simply because they're not available in plastic. However, if Close Enough is an option, you could check out Plastic Soldier Company's plastic offerings, or Warlord's, or some of the other ones out there, and could probably bash most of the infantry from a single box (probably 1 PSC infantry box and one PSC heavy weapons box, but don't take my word for it).



The Soviet special rule 'Great Patriotic War' probably makes sense for the Finns. The other Soviet special rule, 'Quantity has a Quality All of it's Own' doesn't really. I'd swap that second one out for something that reflects the light-infantry, all terrain nature of the Finns, such as...

Jaegers
Finnish Infantry does not treat snow or forests as Rough Terrain. Additionally, when Finnish Infantry is held in reserve and attempts an outflanking maneuver, they may add an additional 12" to the length of the board upon which they may enter. For instance, an Outflanking Finn Infantry squad could attempt to enter on turn three, coming in within 36" of the Finn player's edge, or within 48" on turn four.



Hope this helps!

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2013/02/24 20:40:59


   
Made in fi
Battlewagon Driver with Charged Engine





somewhere in the northern side of the beachball

Thanks you helped alot.

Couple questions:

1. You wrote the lists as "regular". Does it mean that both armies use normal lists from the rule book? I don't have the book nor I intend to get it soon (models first).

2. How much does the 1/72 differ from 28mm scale? I like bt-2 because I loved using it in WoT but if the scale makes it look out of place I'd rather pick something thats wysiwyg and look nice like t-34

As for making finns propably the best bet would be just converting soviets. I'm ok with gs and adding hoodies and skies isn't the most difficult thing ever.

Every time I hear "in my opinion" or "just my opinion" makes me want to strangle a puppy. People use their opinions as a shield that other poeple can't critisize and that is bs.

If you can't defend or won't defend your opinion then that "opinion" is bs. Stop trying to tip-toe and defend what you believe in. 
   
Made in us
Hooded Inquisitorial Interrogator





New York State

1. They're regular, in terms of experience (Inexperienced, Regular, Veteran).

2. 1/72 is 20mm scale, so it's a bit smaller than 1/56 28mm scale. There's also 1/35 scale, or 46mm, and Tamiya makes a BT-7 in that scale, which might be a better fit, scalewise, for 28mm minis (a bit too big usually looks okay, a bit too small makes it look out of place). The BT-7 is the final evolution of the BT-2, and they look pretty similar- it would also be possible to kitbash the BT-7 kit into a BT-2.

3. It seems the Finns used a lot of russian small arms in the war (?), so plastic Russians could probably be a good starting point, especially if you're willing to GS some winter gear on them and tack on a pair of skis on their back. They should look really cool once done up! Plastic Soldier Company Russians are cheap and plentiful- a single Infantry box and a single Heavy Weapons box will give you a ton of soldiers with a variety of weapons. However, they're very static- the models are generally one or two piece casts. Warlord Soviets are multipart and poseable, but IIRC a little more expensive per model, and some of the heavy weapons are metal only.

As this project gets off the ground, you should post pics here- It'd be cool to see the Finns come together!

   
Made in lu
Regular Dakkanaut




Have a look at Battle Honors for 28mm Finns.
Both Winter War and summer uniforms.
$17 for ten...

H
   
Made in gb
Oberstleutnant





Back in the English morass

I wouldn't use Soviets as FInns, their uniforms and webbing are very different.

There are a few manufacturers who make 28mm Finns but they are quite variable quality. This is quite a handy resource http://wk.frothersunite.com/sc/pulp/ww2axis.htm

There is no sign of the Bolt Action models on the warlord games site unfortunately.

RegalPhantom wrote:
If your fluff doesn't fit, change your fluff until it does
The prefect example of someone missing the point.
Do not underestimate the Squats. They survived for millenia cut off from the Imperium and assailed on all sides. Their determination and resilience is an example to us all.
-Leman Russ, Meditations on Imperial Command book XVI (AKA the RT era White Dwarf Commpendium).
Its just a shame that they couldn't fight off Andy Chambers.
Warzone Plog 
   
Made in ie
Buttons Should Be Brass, Not Gold!




Kildare, Ireland

1/35th is 54mm and far too big for 28mm... 1/48th is closer to 28mm (which scales to around 1/56th).

1/72nd would be way too small for 28mm.

Why not just use 20mm?

Far easier and loads cheaper...

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2013/03/03 02:45:07


 Strombones wrote:
Battlegroup - Because its tits.
 
   
Made in fi
Battlewagon Driver with Charged Engine





somewhere in the northern side of the beachball

Palindrome wrote:I wouldn't use Soviets as FInns, their uniforms and webbing are very different.

There are a few manufacturers who make 28mm Finns but they are quite variable quality. This is quite a handy resource http://wk.frothersunite.com/sc/pulp/ww2axis.htm

There is no sign of the Bolt Action models on the warlord games site unfortunately.


I don't think they are too much different. If you look at the uniforms from warlord and battle honours you'll see that only hats/helmets differ and green stuffing a hood isn't really that hard because it isnt open like in dark angel models and realistic scale is smaller where detail do't matter as much.

Big P wrote:1/35th is 54mm and far too big for 28mm... 1/48th is closer to 28mm (which scales to around 1/56th).

1/72nd would be way too small for 28mm.

Why not just use 20mm?

Far easier and loads cheaper...


I would go for 20mm but converting becomes much harder and I want to use couple very specific miniatures which are only in 28mm.

Every time I hear "in my opinion" or "just my opinion" makes me want to strangle a puppy. People use their opinions as a shield that other poeple can't critisize and that is bs.

If you can't defend or won't defend your opinion then that "opinion" is bs. Stop trying to tip-toe and defend what you believe in. 
   
Made in gb
Oberstleutnant





Back in the English morass

 illuknisaa wrote:

I don't think they are too much different. If you look at the uniforms from warlord and battle honours you'll see that only hats/helmets differ and green stuffing a hood isn't really that hard because it isnt open like in dark angel models and realistic scale is smaller where detail do't matter as much.


Well it really depends on what you class as different.

http://2jager.com/uniformsgear.html

Finns in the M36 winter uniform

http://modeldads.co.uk/Graphics2/RusUni/ww2_russian_uniform_guide.pdf

Soviet M35 uniform.

There are differences in the shape of the pockets and collar, the pleating on the tunic and the number of buttons, the most obvious difference though is that the Soviets had 'winged' trousers. Plus they had different accoutrements, which will be the most noticable on the tabletop.

The Soviet and Finnish greatcoats are more similar but there are still noticable differences.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2013/03/03 17:39:53


RegalPhantom wrote:
If your fluff doesn't fit, change your fluff until it does
The prefect example of someone missing the point.
Do not underestimate the Squats. They survived for millenia cut off from the Imperium and assailed on all sides. Their determination and resilience is an example to us all.
-Leman Russ, Meditations on Imperial Command book XVI (AKA the RT era White Dwarf Commpendium).
Its just a shame that they couldn't fight off Andy Chambers.
Warzone Plog 
   
Made in ie
Buttons Should Be Brass, Not Gold!




Kildare, Ireland

What specific figures are only in 28mm?

Just wondering as in 20mm you have Winter War and Continuation War Finns, with the correct uniforms and weapons, from a couple of companies... CP Models, Eureka Miniatures, WarModelling, Foundry and of course, in 20mm you can get away with converting other nations to Finns very easily, as with smaller scales converting is generally easier, especially as its less noticable. Often a simple paintjob will make them 'Finns'!

CP Models below for the Continuation War armed with Suomi SMGs;




Plus the tanks of course.




There is even reindeer for the FInns...



This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2013/03/04 08:23:26


 Strombones wrote:
Battlegroup - Because its tits.
 
   
Made in fi
Battlewagon Driver with Charged Engine





somewhere in the northern side of the beachball

Big P wrote:
What specific figures are only in 28mm?





I don't want to tell yet but you'll know when I post pics.

I have to admit 20mm is really tempting simply because the avaibility is large but after seeing some 20mm infantry in local shops I'm not too fond of the quality.


Every time I hear "in my opinion" or "just my opinion" makes me want to strangle a puppy. People use their opinions as a shield that other poeple can't critisize and that is bs.

If you can't defend or won't defend your opinion then that "opinion" is bs. Stop trying to tip-toe and defend what you believe in. 
   
Made in ie
Buttons Should Be Brass, Not Gold!




Kildare, Ireland

Well are you looking at plastic ones, cos really for WW2, metal 20mm's tend to blow all 28mm outta the water.

AB Figures for example...






But hey, your choice, just suggesting an easier alternative option.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2013/03/05 00:13:10


 Strombones wrote:
Battlegroup - Because its tits.
 
   
 
Forum Index » Historical Miniature Games: WW1 to Modern
Go to: