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 Mr Morden wrote:

PhantomViper wrote:

 Mr Morden wrote:
What's your view on Premeasuring in WMH?

Allowed?
Not allowed?
Finessed?
Only very specific times - or as the rulebook says - anytime you want within the Control range?

Pre-measuring is allowed when the rules say it is and in every other instance it is not allowed.

p77 - you may measure the control area of your models at any time for any reason - so any time you like basically - hence "pretend no-premeasuring". As I said if we get round to playing it again we'll just premeasure - saves the sheningans and pretence.

Obviously you and your friend can do whatever you want, but just be aware nobody else plays it that way. I for one like having to judge distances. 40k used to not allow pre-measurements. They've instead replaced it with randomized movement distances for runs, charges and cover. I much prefer judging ranges to truly random ranges, but that's just my opinion.

 Mr Morden wrote:
p77 - you may measure the control area of your models at any time for any reason - so any time you like basically - hence "pretend no-premeasuring". As I said if we get round to playing it again we'll just premeasure - saves the sheningans and pretence.

Being able to check control area doesn't equate to being able to check any distance whenever you want. For one thing, it's likely that only one model even has a control area , and you can only measure it from that model, up to a certain range (average of 12"). Depending on where the warcaster / warlock actually is, that can make it very impractical for checking if something on the other side of the table is in range of your big guns.

For the record, you can also check melee range, command range (during a unit's activation), and there's one character who can use an action to measure the range between two other models it can see.

I'm not really sure why it's such a turn-off, since 40K had no pre-measuring until not too long ago, but there you are.

 Elemental wrote:

 Mr Morden wrote:
p77 - you may measure the control area of your models at any time for any reason - so any time you like basically - hence "pretend no-premeasuring". As I said if we get round to playing it again we'll just premeasure - saves the sheningans and pretence.

Being able to check control area doesn't equate to being able to check any distance whenever you want. For one thing, it's likely that only one model even has a control area , and you can only measure it from that model, up to a certain range (average of 12"). Depending on where the warcaster / warlock actually is, that can make it very impractical for checking if something on the other side of the table is in range of your big guns.

For the record, you can also check melee range, command range (during a unit's activation), and there's one character who can use an action to measure the range between two other models it can see.

I'm not really sure why it's such a turn-off, since 40K had no pre-measuring until not too long ago, but there you are.

At first I didn't like the no-premeasuring thing, but now I've found that it adds a dynamic element of risk management and speeds up the game.

I like pre-measuring - best thing they ever did for 40k and WFB IMO but I don't mind games that don't allow - we did not like the idea of apparently an inbuilt way to cheat.

 Mr Morden wrote:
I like pre-measuring - best thing they ever did for 40k and WFB IMO but I don't mind games that don't allow - we did not like the idea of apparently an inbuilt way to cheat.

Pre-mesuring just makes things way to easy... and puts the game mostly on Auto.. In modern day 40k you really dont have to think about anything during the "so called game"..

Setup is:
1: Find the most broken Combo and cheezy gak you can out of any army list..
2: Second find the "Rules", and learn how to exploit them all to your benefit,,
3: Place troops in a way that you exploit the game mechanic to MAX...
4: Proxy gak as much as you can if you don't have the models.. SOme of my friend put up the Front row in fantasy and put a dice behind to show how many rows there where etc... People like us are not in it for the hobby we are in it for the "game" nothing more.. I personaly care Nothing if my opponent has painted a single modell in his army. Because it is irrelevant what you use to symbolise something..

You that like 40k and are advocating the system you have to understand that many people do the above in that game.. And it makes it into a "NIGTHMARE of UNFUNess".. If all of you where forced to play every game "with the 4 thing above ALWYAS in Effect" you would also find another system to play or just stop playing.. THis is the Sad truth of 40k..

That people find this fun is beyoned me.. And for the Record I have to Exploit the game or I feel "sad inside the whole game" because I'm not running stuff on OPTIMAL preformance.. I know some of you play it not doing the Above, but I can't, and that makes 40k(as a game) unplaybal for me.. Because if I Cheese like a crazy person. And then everyone will adapt and start doing the same because I'm also smug and arrogant..

In Warmachine I can't break the rules and I can cheese as much as I want and the game is "belive it or not" still balanced... it is superior in all shapes and forms..

 zlayer77 wrote:

 Mr Morden wrote:
I like pre-measuring - best thing they ever did for 40k and WFB IMO but I don't mind games that don't allow - we did not like the idea of apparently an inbuilt way to cheat.

Pre-mesuring just makes things way to easy... and puts the game mostly on Auto.. In modern day 40k you really dont have to think about anything during the "so called game"..

Setup is:

1: Find the most broken Combo ans cheezy gak you can out of any army list..
2: Second find the "Rules", and learn how to exploit them all to your benefit,,
3: Place troops in a way that you exploit the game mechanic to MAX...

That people find this fun is beyoned me.. And for the Record I have to Exploit the game or I feel "sad inside the whole game" because I'm not running stuff on OPTIMAL preformance.. I know some of you play it not doing the Above, but I can't, and that makes 40k(as a game) unplaybal for me.. Because if I Cheese like a crazy person. And then everyone will adapt and start doing the same because I'm also smug and arrogant..

In Warmachine I can't break the rules and I can cheese as much as I want and the game is "belive it or not" still balanced... it is superior in all shapes and forms..

with premeasuring - you don't mess about trying to work out the exact distance you spend time thinking about the game, tactics and so on - and you know fun.....Winning is not everything and I don't need to Max out everything - god thats dull for me

That might be your experience of 40k - its not mine. And no I donl;t have to cheese it up - hate that way of playing

I used to think that 6th edition 40k changes regarding charging and pre-measuring were out of whack, but in retrospect they were good changes:

-no pre-measuring would be fine if it didn't leave so much grey area between 'legit distance estimating' and 'cheating'. There is simply way too many ways to exploit it - "overmeasure" movement, "accidentally" leave your measure or some other item of known length near, etc.

-with pre-measure allowed, leaving fixed charge distances would have resulted to too much fine-tuning the unit movements and deployments so that the defender is 6.1 inches away. Now people care far less of timeconsuming and annoying millimetre-accurate placements, since they know that the odds of that mattering are small. Besides, even in 5th edition charge distances were often already random, since much of the time you were charging through difficult terrain.

-pre-measuring speeds up the game. I know everyone does not agree, but this is my experience. With having to guess distances, some people took just AGES to ponder whether they should shoot or charge or move to certain place etc. Now, they just measure the distance "oh, I can't reach that, OK then".

Some people are better at judging distances than others. Even without pre-measuring in a game, you know the table size (usually), how deep the deployment zone is, base sizes, and usually the center line. All of these make it fairly easy to figure out if something is within 12" or 24", but maybe not 12" and 14".

I don't view the control range measurement in WMH to be "inbuilt cheating", but I have seen it used comically plenty of times. I think pre-measurement in WMH would ruin a lot of the gameplay, which as I've said before, is typically what the game is all about.

I was going to say that WMH typically uses a wider array of ranges, then I realized I don't always know what I'm talking about. Pre-measuring in Warhammer is VERY important with random charge distances and stuff. Plus, speed of play is important when handling a higher model count.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
My point is that no pre-measuring is unfair to people with poor depth perception.

 Mr Morden wrote:

 zlayer77 wrote:

 Mr Morden wrote:
I like pre-measuring - best thing they ever did for 40k and WFB IMO but I don't mind games that don't allow - we did not like the idea of apparently an inbuilt way to cheat.

Pre-mesuring just makes things way to easy... and puts the game mostly on Auto.. In modern day 40k you really dont have to think about anything during the "so called game"..

Setup is:

1: Find the most broken Combo ans cheezy gak you can out of any army list..
2: Second find the "Rules", and learn how to exploit them all to your benefit,,
3: Place troops in a way that you exploit the game mechanic to MAX...

That people find this fun is beyoned me.. And for the Record I have to Exploit the game or I feel "sad inside the whole game" because I'm not running stuff on OPTIMAL preformance.. I know some of you play it not doing the Above, but I can't, and that makes 40k(as a game) unplaybal for me.. Because if I Cheese like a crazy person. And then everyone will adapt and start doing the same because I'm also smug and arrogant..

In Warmachine I can't break the rules and I can cheese as much as I want and the game is "belive it or not" still balanced... it is superior in all shapes and forms..

with premeasuring - you don't mess about trying to work out the exact distance you spend time thinking about the game, tactics and so on - and you know fun.....Winning is not everything and I don't need to Max out everything - god thats dull for me

That might be your experience of 40k - its not mine. And no I donl;t have to cheese it up - hate that way of playing

But 40ks only tactic is how much I can break the rules and exploit them(and random charges, random moves through rough terrain, Random invulnerable saves and no pre-mesure the only tactics left "when you no longer control your army and everything is random" is to find Broken combobs like; Orcs shoot on 5 standing still, so better to load up on heavy weaopons and move and shoot on a 6, roll enough dice and you get a few 6s. Or put the dude with an Invulnerable save first so he has to die before the rest of the squad can get attacked (and get him really cheesed out so he saves on 2s and have extra save if he fails etc), Bring out all the broken FOrge world that you can possible put in your army .

This is what 40k looks like when I'm playing it! and in all honesty would you like to play the game like this? if NO.. Understand then WHY we quit.. We can't play 40k because we are "Jack asses" that destroy any semblance of fun in a game like 40k the Game just has to many rules that can get exploited... Now instead of toning it down "and i said before that this makes me angry and sad inside" I cant do it my friends cant do it because again " We are all "Jack asses", SO our only option was to find a game that we could actually play without having to "tone stuff down", and we dident have to write 6-10 pages of house rules.. We could just play it and it was "balanced".. Warmachine is that game...

And yes it is not your experince but if it would have been you would have quit 40k also "trust me on this"... And it is not so that I could go out and find others to play with, Because again "Im a Jack ass" who playes the way you hate playing.. So I would show up and be douchebag at your local gaming club I would be smug and arrogant.. ANd yes you would "SOON" all hate me haha.. That is the Nature of 40k... Not so in warmachine/hordes, because everyone has an equal chans of winning, nobody is left out (not getting a codex uppdate for 7+ years).. All is balanced and you have a sense of "FAIR PLAY".. So even if I'm an arrogant bastard people find it easier to put up with it in Warmachine vs 40k.. "PURE FACT"

If you are going to compare 40k vs Warmachine, you have to define what they are:

40k = an Experince, the lore is cool and with the right type of people it could probably be fun? if you get stuck with the wrong crowed it soon becomes a Nightmare, with horrible balance and broken rules..
Warmachine/hordes = Is a Real game with "FAIR PLAY", you don't have to make house rules and you can play it competitively, and you dont have to worry about "TONING IT DOWN"...

If you are a lore buff and your focus is not on winning games, in fact you might suck kinda hard at tactics and you don't mind alot of random gak that makes the army play itself instead of you playing it.. Then 40k is an excellent game to play. It dosent hurt one bit if you like to paint miniatures and do all the hobby stuff (that most people I know hate)..

On the other hand if you are Focused and a real Power Gamer, who is not there to get an experince but instead is there to WIN a game against other people then Warmachine is the game for you...

If people could just understand these two types of gamers then all this VS crap could come to an end... Warmachine is the better GAME.. 40k is probably the better experince.. Our local gaming club is like a Mental DOJO, people scream, argue and are mean to one another.. That is just HOW WE ROLL... We love it.. we come back week after week for more.. Now we have had some 40k players come by over the years(who are the experince types) and they run for the Door quicker then the flash as soon as the CHaos breaks out.. The record is at 5m on a dude who more or less turned in the door and ran out after he saw what was going down and I explained "FEAR does not Exist in the DOJO" and "MERCY is for the WEAK" hahah, he had traveld 45m to get there and ran out in 5m "IT WAS FUN as hell", and we still have good laugh about it haha.. But he knew that this was not for him, because in front of him was just the type of players he rememberd hating to "play" in 40k.

I honestly think you 40k White Knights should be glad that games like Warmachine/hordes exist because all the "douchbags", are leaving 40k for Warmachine/hordes/infinity and all the other more balanced games out there.. and we get along just fine amongst ourself without you "carebaeres" ruining all the fun of table top gaming haha.. "It is about Tears", that is what feeds us.. We want Sanctioned tournaments and we want to put our skills to the test facing the best of the best..

I am not trying to upset people here but the fact is that my local gaming group are 99% what you would define as douchbags. And when we go out and play other groups who play warmachine what do you think we find? yes more douchbags.. Hardcore players and Carebeares should never mix, and I thank the higher powers that Privateer press and other companies are making games for us that are more hardcore then the avrage "40k carebeare" can take.. And by the looks of it GW, knows that there are more carebears then hardcore players so they are sticking to there beer and pretzel design..

Most people Cant take playing EVE online for the same reasons It is "unforgiving and Harsh", most people like "sell out" Blizzard alot more, who made a nice "ThemePark" for the players to run around in.. So all you White Knights and advocates of 40k, should just accept that you are carebears and that you dont really want to play a balanced hardcore game.. Your own house rules, were you dictate what can and can not be used, is all you really want from a table top game. You want to feel protected and you want to feel safe.. And Warmachine/hordes is niether safe nor friendly it is hardcore..

Please don't refer to GW apolgists as"white knights." It doesn't help our side. And I don't like power gaming, but I love fair play.

 zlayer77 wrote:

Most people Cant take playing EVE online for the same reasons It is "unforgiving and Harsh", most people like "sell out" Blizzard alot more, who made a nice "ThemePark" for the players to run around in.. So all you White Knights and advocates of 40k, should just accept that you are carebears and that you dont really want to play a balanced hardcore game.. Your own house rules, were you dictate what can and can not be used, is all you really want from a table top game. You want to feel protected and you want to feel safe.. And Warmachine/hordes is niether safe nor friendly it is hardcore..

Well, now I know where the stereotype Warmachine player comes from. Well done, you've just made all the fans of the game look like hyper-competitive, hostile, overly smug one-true-wayists.

Please stop defending things I like, you're really bad at it.

 MWHistorian wrote:
Please don't refer to GW apolgists as"white knights." It doesn't help our side. And I don't like power gaming, but I love fair play.

Yeep you are right "my bad".. But my point is that more balanced games attracts another type of gamers

If I was to make an educated guess, I personaly think most 40k players who are still playing have an affinity for the Lore. They love how their minatures look and they migh even imagine why there chapter of space marines are fighting just this fight etc.. The game of 40k becomes much more then just a "game". Even down to the assembling of your miniatures, it is an experince in 40k. You can look at the big spures full of stuff and decide what arms and legs to use and how to pose you miniature, what weapons will he have etc.

Now compare this to warmachine you pop out the miniature (most of the plastic you can just socket into place) BOOM 5m later the miniatures are done and on the table ready to play.. Lore is also way less important in Warmachine/hordes, you look at the stats of the card..

I really do understand why many people stick with 40k it is the "themepark", lots of shiny stuff, lots of promises that the next ride will be more fun then the one you were just on that made you puke(your codex has not been uppdated in years), But SOON you will find that ultimate ride it is just out of sight and if you stick it out a little bit longer it will come(more balanced rules and better uppdates)... But in the end the "themepark" is shallow, and then you are left with 2 options "make your own stuff up, house rule it"(most 40k and WHFB players take this option). Or try and find another game that is acctually balanced.. But this can be scary, because some games like privateer press Warmachine/hordes might be balanced but it is full of really good players who will kick your butt 24/7, and you can't get saved by bad dice rolls and lots of random rules.. Might be better to go back and try Option 1 again, atleast that is safe and secure .. Also many of the balanced games attract just the kinds of people you try and avoid when you play 40k.. It is not a coincidence that people who want "Balanced", "unforgiving" and "Rules as writen", arnt the most fun people to hang around with unless you think exacly like they do... This goes for any sport, that you can compete in.. Top level Poker players " and "chessmasters can also often come off as being both arrogant and smug..

Im not competitive and I like WMH lore better. Your giving us a bad name.

 Elemental wrote:

 zlayer77 wrote:

Most people Cant take playing EVE online for the same reasons It is "unforgiving and Harsh", most people like "sell out" Blizzard alot more, who made a nice "ThemePark" for the players to run around in.. So all you White Knights and advocates of 40k, should just accept that you are carebears and that you dont really want to play a balanced hardcore game.. Your own house rules, were you dictate what can and can not be used, is all you really want from a table top game. You want to feel protected and you want to feel safe.. And Warmachine/hordes is niether safe nor friendly it is hardcore..

Well, now I know where the stereotype Warmachine player comes from. Well done, you've just made all the fans of the game look like hyper-competitive, hostile, overly smug one-true-wayists.

Please stop defending things I like, you're really bad at it.

I'm telling the truth here my friend.. What I am also saying is that Being a "douchebag" dosent effect how Warmachine/hordes is played.. But being the same kind of "douchebag" in 40k, power gaming the hell out of it. Has the potential of Ruining another persons day.. That is the main diffrence betewn the two systems.. One comes down to "WHO am I playing", the other" that being warmachine" comes down to your own skills and tactics. And how much of a Power gamer, or arrogant douchbag you opponent might be, wont effect a game of warmachine.. Because at the end of the day "Balanced rules", "Rules as writen" etc, takes what kind of person you are out of the equation, and the only thing that is left is SKILL VS SKILL...

We can all be "Douchbags" in warmachine Hordes because the balanced rules makes everything fair and even.. You would know this if you play the game.. ANd my post was for the 40k people whom many are convinced that warmachine/hordes is full of "POWER GAMING douchebags", and they are right, but the fact is it has ZERO outcome on the gameplay...

 MWHistorian wrote:
Im not competitive and I like WMH lore better. Your giving us a bad name.

If only more WMH players could be like you....

I think that if I still had time for gaming, I'd MUCH rather face someone like you at the table than some of the other posters here, regardless of what game was being played.

 MWHistorian wrote:
Im not competitive and I like WMH lore better. Your giving us a bad name.

Not really I'm telling it how it is.. I can come over to your house with my "Power gamed" Warmachine list, I can be all arrogant about how good I think my new list is.. Then the game starts.. And during the match we will encounter zero "rules interpretations", "nothing will be Broken", I cant place my miniatures in a cheazy way to stop you from shooting at the other members of that unit(like you can in 40k were you are forced to shoot at an entire unit and shoot the closest first, that just happens to have a invulnerable save on 2+).. There will be no random charges(roll dice to see how far you get). THe only invulnerable save we might encounter is tough, and there are counters for that.. In the end you and I will have a balanced gaming experince.. I might be arrogant and A POWER GAMER but that dosent secure me the win, only my skill will save me..

That is the MAIN diffrence betwen a broken 80S GAME and a game revised in 2010, after an international survey.. Me Being a "douchebag" will have zero effect on our gaming experince, Becaus the rules wont let me break the game to my advantage. In fact you will probably not even think that I am a "douchebag".. Because the main thing that people get upset about in 40k(and calling people a douchebags for) is using Over powerd cheezy stuff and abusing perfectly legal but broken rules

 zlayer77 wrote:

 MWHistorian wrote:
Im not competitive and I like WMH lore better. Your giving us a bad name.

Not really I'm telling it how it is.. I can come over to your house with my "Power gamed" Warmachine list, I can be all arrogant about how good I think my new list is.. Then the game starts.. And during the match we will encounter zero "rules interpretations", "nothing will be Broken", I cant place my miniatures in a cheazy way to stop you from shooting at the other members of that unit(like you can in 40k were you are forced to shoot at an entire unit and shoot the closest first, that just happens to have a invulnerable save on 2+).. There will be no random charges(roll dice to see how far you get). THe only invulnerable save we might encounter is tough, and there are counters for that.. In the end you and I will have a balanced gaming experince.. I might be arrogant and A POWER GAMER but that dosent secure me the win, only my skill will save me..

That is the MAIN diffrence betwen a broken 80S GAME and a game revised in 2010, after an international survey.. Me Being a "douchebag" will have zero effect on our gaming experince, Becaus the rules wont let me break the game to my advantage. In fact you will probably not even think that I am a "douchebag".. Because the main thing that people get upset about in 40k(and calling people a douchebags for) is using Over powerd cheezy stuff and abusing perfectly legal but broken rules

Have to agree with you there, just as WM is magic the gathering with miniatures, the lack of proper tournament support (rules wise) from GW is appalling.

 zlayer77 wrote:

 MWHistorian wrote:
Im not competitive and I like WMH lore better. Your giving us a bad name.

Not really I'm telling it how it is.. I can come over to your house with my "Power gamed" Warmachine list, I can be all arrogant about how good I think my new list is.. Then the game starts.. And during the match we will encounter zero "rules interpretations", "nothing will be Broken", I cant place my miniatures in a cheazy way to stop you from shooting at the other members of that unit(like you can in 40k were you are forced to shoot at an entire unit and shoot the closest first, that just happens to have a invulnerable save on 2+).. There will be no random charges(roll dice to see how far you get). THe only invulnerable save we might encounter is tough, and there are counters for that.. In the end you and I will have a balanced gaming experince.. I might be arrogant and A POWER GAMER but that dosent secure me the win, only my skill will save me..

That is the MAIN diffrence betwen a broken 80S GAME and a game revised in 2010, after an international survey.. Me Being a "douchebag" will have zero effect on our gaming experince, Becaus the rules wont let me break the game to my advantage. In fact you will probably not even think that I am a "douchebag".. Because the main thing that people get upset about in 40k(and calling people a douchebags for) is using Over powerd cheezy stuff and abusing perfectly legal but broken rules

Yeah, I largely agree with zlayer, with WM/H there will be little in the way of rules interpretation and little opportunity to "game the game," which seems to be becoming an increasingly worsening problem with 40k.

I think people have an artificial attachment to 40k's rules- to be honest, I feel that if you took 40k and massaged it into WM/H rules, gave it to a beginner and had him play with the models in both 40k and WM/H rules, he or she would pick the WM/H iteration as the better experience. People just have all their history with the 40k rules system and have become accustomed to how the game works. It's just disappointing GW has taken to making non-directional changes to the 7 editions of 40k without any other apparent plan beyond "change it up so we can sell it again!"

I don't think anyone has an attachment to the 40k rules. I think the best competitor makes models of dubious quality, arguably boring aesthetics and charges just as much for them so people are hesitant. I LOVE the rules of WMH. However, the aesthetics and quality of the models have prevented me from playing just WMH. I build the models and use them as game pieces to play the game. I have no motivation to paint my army to a high standard, read all the fluff, etc. When I buy a new model, I don't think "wow that's awesome I can't wait to build/paint it". I think "this will be a good addition to my list". I HATE the rules of 40k. However, when I look through pictures of armies, they inspire me. They make me want to paint them, base them nicely, read through the background, etc. I'm a competitive person so I still choose models based on how good they will work on the table but I look at it more like "wow, I can't wait to paint this thing. It's going to look awesome AND it's going to kill stuff".

If WMH models were more sci-fi and less Steampunk, high quality plastic on sprues instead of that restic crap with mold lines everywhere and missing pieces in every kit, they would be putting GW out of business. As it is, I will keep spending on GW stuff because it scratches an itch that WMH cannot and only buy the WMH stuff I absolutely need for my list.

What does models or fluff have to do with what system you use. I could never figure out the "I need to use this model for this game or This game use model I do not the look of". Then there is "that system use that fluff, I to unimaginative use fluff I like" from people who paint miniatures and play with them, is just a cop out.

90% of my games are tournaments or league games. I can't show up to a WMH tournament with GW models. Also some opponents have a problem with stuff like that because in a 50 point game of WMH it gets tricky to remember what each model actually represents. If I was just playing in my basement for funsies it would be different. It's not a cop out, if you don't have the proper models in my meta, you won't get a game. At that point it doesn't really matter how much you enjoy them because you can't do anything with them.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Also, I'm not sure what you mean by "I to [sic] unimaginative to use fluff I like". When I sit down and read a horus heresy novel, it's kind of hard to transfer that story to Steampunk WMH models. I don't really understand your point there.

Noir wrote:
What does models or fluff have to do with what system you use. I could never figure out the "I need to use this model for this game or This game use model I do not the look of". Then there is "that system use that fluff, I to unimaginative use fluff I like" from people who paint miniatures and play with them, is just a cop out.

People want a guarantee. They enjoy the feeling that they can go into any gaming store and play 40k to the game size and rule set they are used to. Ubiquity is one of 40k's greatest assets, which is why its erosion over the last few years is very troubling for the game's overall health.

It's the reason why many people will stick to playing 40k even if the rules become increasingly bloated and expensive. And I am under the belief that for a lot of players, it's "all-or-nothing." Playing models with different rule sets is just more of a hassle than they care to deal with in terms of a game with plastic soldiers.

 Accolade wrote:

Noir wrote:
What does models or fluff have to do with what system you use. I could never figure out the "I need to use this model for this game or This game use model I do not the look of". Then there is "that system use that fluff, I to unimaginative use fluff I like" from people who paint miniatures and play with them, is just a cop out.

People want a guarantee. They enjoy the feeling that they can go into any gaming store and play 40k to the game size and rule set they are used to. Ubiquity is one of 40k's greatest assets, which is why its erosion over the last few years is very troubling for the game's overall health.

It's the reason why many people will stick to playing 40k even if the rules become increasingly bloated and expensive. And I am under the belief that for a lot of players, it's "all-or-nothing." Playing models with different rule sets is just more of a hassle than they care to deal with in terms of a game with plastic soldiers.

Yeah guess your right. It not like you need to clip, trim, glue, paint, and base the miniature to play, and if they won't do that. Ican see it being a hassle to say "this model is this model instead".

I could be wrong, but I'm assuming you're being sarcastic. The modeling portion is a personal task, typically of enjoyment, that is largely devoid of human interaction. Generally, people get into tabletop games because they like the miniatures, and often have a predisposition to either building or painting (obviously this is not everyone).

The hobby portion is considerably low-stress, whereas debating over rules, fair balance, and personal opinion is something that a lot of people find stressful. At least when there's an already prepared rule set, the need to debate fairness is *mostly* mitigated...or at the very least put on the 3rd party's (aka rule designer's) shoulders. Playing mix-and-match with rules and models puts the responsibility back on the player's shoulders, and I just don't think that's something a lot of people want to deal with.

I think it's why you don't see more people even playing older editions of 40k, even when the most recent dakka poll shows 5th edition being the most popular. People want the comfort and safety of moving with the crowd.

 Accolade wrote:

I think it's why you don't see more people even playing older editions of 40k, even when the most recent dakka poll shows 5th edition being the most popular. People want the comfort and safety of moving with the crowd.

I'd be one of those people... You're more than welcome (if I've met you in person, and you're cool) to come over to my place. We'll set up my 8x4 table and play some 5th ed. Planetstrike, Apocalypse, or regular 40k

 Mr Morden wrote:
What's your view on Premeasuring in WMH?

Allowed?
Not allowed?
Finessed?
Only very specific times - or as the rulebook says - anytime you want within the Control range?

Not allowed.
You can measure the control area of your caster in your turn at any time. That's it.
For all other units, when they activate (shoot or charge) you nominate a target. Then you can measure if within reach.

People like zlayer are just as bad for the WM scene as power gaming cheese mongers are for 40k. That smug sense of superiority really boils my urine. We had people cheering when it was realised there was more WM that anything else at my local club for the first time. Like they'd banished some evil spirit. The tribalism is pathetic.

I'd also argue that you can buy to win to an extent. Or cheese your way to a win. The local TFG for a first list, bought everything for a tier 4 syntherion and made it very boring to play. Is that unbeatable? No, but it needs an experienced player to think of a good counter and will require more model buying. The other TFG just sets up a load of forests and plays his legion list. Again, not much fun.

A game against a TFG is rubbish no matter what, and both systems allow them to act up.

Thank god not all WM players are like this, because I enjoy the game when it's played with a decent person.

What I'm getting from this thread is that many WMH players are disillusioned 40k players who care a lot about balanced rules, multi-layered tactics and a game that requires a significant amount of almost chess-like concentration each time you roll a dice or move a little man a few inches this way or that. People like MWhistorian seem to be the exception. I can certainly understand that mentality (I'm guessing it's a similar mindset to people who play DOTA and games like it), but I can't identify with it in the least. I'm that elusive "beer and pretzels" type of gamer that so many people deride GW for catering to. I don't necessarily need balance, I'm not in it for carefully considering every single move I make on the table, I just want to immerse myself in what I consider to be an amazing universe, using beautiful models that I've painstakingly put together, converted and painted, in the company of people I enjoy hanging out with. I'm lucky enough to have a gaming group consisting of almost exclusively like-minded people who don't mind losing, who would never run a netlist or put 6 Wave Serpents on the table. Case in point, in a recent tournament most of us attended, all but one were placed 50 or lower. Just trying to give my perspective on this whole thing, and why I feel that while WMH might be a better game, it feels like a completely different type of community and game from what I personally enjoy.

 zlayer77 wrote:

We can all be "Douchbags" in warmachine Hordes because the balanced rules makes everything fair and even.. You would know this if you play the game.. ANd my post was for the 40k people whom many are convinced that warmachine/hordes is full of "POWER GAMING douchebags", and they are right, but the fact is it has ZERO outcome on the gameplay...

You see that thing sailing into the distance behind you? That's the point.

You're making a valid point in an absolutely terrible, awful way, that confirms every bad stereotype of WM players that gets expressed by people who are usually pure 40K players who associate competitiveness with being a jerk. You've just said the game is full of "douchebags", and you think that'll make people want to play? Really? You really, really don't see how that might put people off, or promote the stereotype of "that game I don't want to try 'cause it's full of WAAC'ers"? Well, I guess they're not MANLY enough to handle this XTREME wargame! Come off it.

Here's the thing; I broadly agree with you that an asset of WM is that it doesn't have the stigma against trying "too hard" to win that 40K has--rather than worrying about social contracts and not having a "too good" list, you can just show up and play the game. But to say the personality of the opponent doesn't matter is just plain wrong--yes, I've played games against a few complete twerps, and while having a balanced system made the game itself run smoother, it didn't make the experience itself fun. I'd argue the opposite--that by removing rules arguments and "too good" lists as a point of tension, WM lets me have friendlier games.

Mymearan wrote:

What I'm getting from this thread is that many WMH players are disillusioned 40k players who care a lot about balanced rules, multi-layered tactics and a game that requires a significant amount of almost chess-like concentration each time you roll a dice or move a little man a few inches this way or that. People like MWhistorian seem to be the exception. I can certainly understand that mentality (I'm guessing it's a similar mindset to people who play DOTA and games like it), but I can't identify with it in the least. I'm that elusive "beer and pretzels" type of gamer that so many people deride GW for catering to. I don't necessarily need balance, I'm not in it for carefully considering every single move I make on the table, I just want to immerse myself in what I consider to be an amazing universe, using beautiful models that I've painstakingly put together, converted and painted, in the company of people I enjoy hanging out with. I'm lucky enough to have a gaming group consisting of almost exclusively like-minded people who don't mind losing, who would never run a netlist or put 6 Wave Serpents on the table. Case in point, in a recent tournament most of us attended, all but one were placed 50 or lower. Just trying to give my perspective on this whole thing, and why I feel that while WMH might be a better game, it feels like a completely different type of community and game from what I personally enjoy.

Amen to that! I wouldn't touch 40K with a ten foot pole after the 7th edition, but I can relate. Frankly, I find all this back and forth a bit childish and pointless in a "my dad is stronger than yours“ way. Does it really matter? In the end it all comes down to preference. Luckily , the wargaming hobby is big enough to have something for everyone. GW deserves criticism , but the whole "40K sucks" is not cool anymore.