Blood Angels Tactica - Assaulting and How Meph got a brand new sword.

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**Melissia**

At least you can still up their save to 4++ with a librarian if you're worried about it. The sangiunary discipline is so good.

**Red__Thirst**

Agreed, the Sanguinary Discipline is amazing. I love Shield of Sanguinius on my Librarian Dread. Unleash Rage on charging Death Company makes them just heinous in melee, and even Blood Boil is useful since you can cherry pick a unit within 18" to generally inflict one or two mortal wounds (against MEQ anyway) or even 3 if you're lucky. It's fun to use against characters especially.

I'm sorting out how I want to build the next part of my army now. More bolters and big guns are the order of the day so far, after finishing up my Death Co. Dread I'll be building more tactical marines, some Primaris marines, and Death Company.

I'll also be building at least one Razorback soon as well. Hopefully two, depending on funds.

Looking forward to seeing more discussion here in the mean time.

Take it easy.

-Red__Thirst-

**Martel732**

Just wait until we get wings back.

Casting shield on a terminator squad is a waste, though. It's much better on huge DC squads or dreads.

**p5freak**

PandatheWarrior wrote:You also forget the fact that assault termi are insaleny tought against most weapons but plasma spam. Even 1 or 2 left is a pain in the ass. While after the alpha yours vets will be killed by mere saturation of bolters and represent nothing on the board.

They are insanely tough against lascannons, grav, disintegration, meltas, rocket launchers, power weapons. flamestormcannons ? Enough small arms fire will kill you, you will roll those 1s. You have no chance against an orc boyz mob of 30.

I can play it relatively safe and deepstrike 12-24" away, on a flank, maybe in cover. That will put me out of range from most enemy fire, and give me a 2+sv, reducing my damage output at 12"+ though. Your assault termis have to get into CC, which is not easy right now.

Melissia wrote:At least you can still up their save to 4++ with a librarian if you're worried about it. The sangiunary discipline is so good.

Which is another 69+ pts.

**Spado**

Vets can have SS too and 10 overcharged plasma shots in the face rerolling 1s if the captain is nearby can deal massive damage.
Don't get me wrong I FUCKIN LOVE HAMMERETORS but what If I fail the charge? Moreover they always have the -1 to hit so they would need the help of a chaplain to get some help too

**PandatheWarrior**

I don't get the comparaison, both are different uses and TH termies are significantly tougher /points.

Instead of basing yourself on the charge just play one unit one time.

The exemple for the vets are so bad when they get wiped by auspec or if they DS far, they are just gonna hit with 5 pathetic plasma shots for 200 pts + captain.

I'm definitely not saying they are op but they are not trash.

**p5freak**

PandatheWarrior wrote:

The exemple for the vets are so bad when they get wiped by auspec or if they DS far, they are just gonna hit with 5 pathetic plasma shots for 200 pts + captain.

5 plasma shots hitting on 3+, rerolling 1s, with 3-4 hits, doing 6-8 damage are better than failing the 9" charge and do 0 damage.

**Martel732**

Terminators are still ass-terrible thanks to plasma.

**Frozocrone**

Martel732 wrote:
Terminators are still ass-terrible thanks to plasma.

They're only bad because Plasma is too f***ing good this edition.

**Martel732**

Doesn't make the statement less true. Grav was too good. Before that, plasma was too good. Before that, krak missiles were probably too good (2nd). None of these facts ever made terminators less ass.

Even without plasma, there's a plethora of 2 damage weapons and sources of mortal wounds (OMG tyranids) that are exceedingly efficient vs terminators. Even the humble autocannon is quite fearsome.

**Frozocrone**

Something designed to take out light vehicles is 'exceedingly efficient' at taking out armoured infantry.

Mortal wounds? Sure, far too many sources. 2 Damage weapons? That's their job.

**Martel732**

I'm just pointing out that terminators are still in an awkward cruch-based position. You'd have to remove half the weapons in the game before they became worthwhile.

**jcd386**

Terminators, and indeed heavy infantry in general, are in a weird place where there isn't really a wrong weapon to shoot at them, compared to vehicles or lighter infantry, except maybe small arms fire, but even enough of that can work in a pinch since they are not usually t5 and have to rely on armor saves and 2 wounds to stay alive.

**Spado**

Hi everyone,

I just finished a kill point game against a sister player and I've been tabled out at turn 4 while he still had about half his army fielded. I'm trying to figure out what I'm doing wrong since my current win % with BA this edition is terrible: after this loss my record is 2W and 8L.

Here is the list I used today, a vanguard and a fast attack detachment:

Captain, JP, combi-plasma and relic blade

5 men assault squad, 2 plasmagun, sergeant with power axe and plasma pistol

5 men assault squad, 2 plasmagun, sergeant with power axe and plasma pistol

5 men assault squad, 2 plasmagun, sergeant with power axe and plasma pistol

razorback with TL assault cannon

razorback with TL assault cannon

razorback with TL assault cannon

Stormraven with 2x requiem hurricane, TL assault cannon, 2x stormstrike missile launcher, typhoon missile launcher

Sanguinary priest, JP and TH

5x DC, JP, boltgun, 4x power axes and 1 power fist

5x company veterans, JP, 5 combiplasma and ss

5x company veterans, JP, 5 combiplasma and ss

5x devastator squad, 4x lascannon

5x devastator squad, 4x lascannon

Captain and veterans were on reserve, the assault squads were on the razorback and I embarked both the priest and the DC inside the SR.

I managed to do a lot of damage to his vehicles but once we drew blades in combat he was basically wiping out entire units with her cute saint and some sort of naked berserkers who deals 2xd3 attacks, have 2 wounds each and a 5+ save. They spitted on my DC too xD.

I don't think I'm doing terrible mistakes in game as also my previous buddy opponent who plays necrons told me I played really good so I guess that the problem is more related to list building.

Do you guys have any precious suggestion I could use to improve my win rating?

Cheers,

Christian

**sossen**

Spado wrote:

Spoiler:

Hi everyone,

I just finished a kill point game against a sister player and I've been tabled out at turn 4 while he still had about half his army fielded. I'm trying to figure out what I'm doing wrong since my current win % with BA this edition is terrible: after this loss my record is 2W and 8L.

Here is the list I used today, a vanguard and a fast attack detachment:

Captain, JP, combi-plasma and relic blade

5 men assault squad, 2 plasmagun, sergeant with power axe and plasma pistol

5 men assault squad, 2 plasmagun, sergeant with power axe and plasma pistol

5 men assault squad, 2 plasmagun, sergeant with power axe and plasma pistol

razorback with TL assault cannon

razorback with TL assault cannon

razorback with TL assault cannon

Stormraven with 2x requiem hurricane, TL assault cannon, 2x stormstrike missile launcher, typhoon missile launcher

Sanguinary priest, JP and TH

5x DC, JP, boltgun, 4x power axes and 1 power fist

5x company veterans, JP, 5 combiplasma and ss

5x company veterans, JP, 5 combiplasma and ss

5x devastator squad, 4x lascannon

5x devastator squad, 4x lascannon

Captain and veterans were on reserve, the assault squads were on the razorback and I embarked both the priest and the DC inside the SR.

I managed to do a lot of damage to his vehicles but once we drew blades in combat he was basically wiping out entire units with her cute saint and some sort of naked berserkers who deals 2xd3 attacks, have 2 wounds each and a 5+ save. They spitted on my DC too xD.

I don't think I'm doing terrible mistakes in game as also my previous buddy opponent who plays necrons told me I played really good so I guess that the problem is more related to list building.

Do you guys have any precious suggestion I could use to improve my win rating?

Cheers,

Christian

Sisters are a top tier army, non-gimmicky SM armies including BA are probably below average in this edition. So the main problem might be the matchup.

My suggestions: Cut those assault squads. They don't do enough even with the plasma guns. I'm not sure what to replace them with, I wouldn't say it's necessary to put anything in the razorbacks.

Add some chaff devastators to those squads, it's too easy to eliminate the lascannons. I'd consider running quad-las predators instead.

I'm not sure about the rest, it looks fairly competitive to me.

**jcd386**

I think you might need a couple fodder/speedbump units in your list of you aren't taking melee type units. Because once most of your list gets into combat, it will probably die, and if not, they definitely lose a lot of effectiveness until it can shoot again.

Scouts and rhinos work pretty well for me, getting in things way and charging things to stall until i am ready to shoot and charge things on my own terms.

Alternatively, maybe just add more of a melee element.

**fatbudda319**

What do you guys prefer;

x5 Death Company, Jump packs, boltguns, x4 power swords, thunderhammer with Sanguinary Priest with Power sword.

Or

x5 Death Company, Jump packs, boltguns, x4 power axes, thunderhammer with chaplain.

Im trying to decide if S5 with AP-3 and the ability to bring people back beats S5 AP-2 re-rolling hits? They cost roughly the same give or take a few points.

**Remtek**

Even if you don't have +1 str you still want powerswords. I'd go with chaplain in this configuration, tho it's a bit much to have a character buff 5 guys, what is the rest of your army.

Str4 ap3 is very similar dmg to Str5 ap2 against most t4 infantry except t-shirt saves, and vs many of the t-shirt save units they are T3. Vs T7/T6 veichles, str4 powerswords are much better.

**p5freak**

Drop the priest and get four more DC models. The priest can only revive one model each round, and the chance is 50%. If he fails he cannot fight. Why not start with four more models in the first place ? Four models will give you 8 attacks (12 when charging), instead of 3 for the priest. Go with poweraxes, for +1 str. Makes wounding easier.

**Spado**

jcd386 wrote:
I think you might need a couple fodder/speedbump units in your list of you aren't taking melee type units. Because once most of your list gets into combat, it will probably die, and if not, they definitely lose a lot of effectiveness until it can shoot again.

Scouts and rhinos work pretty well for me, getting in things way and charging things to stall until i am ready to shoot and charge things on my own terms.

Alternatively, maybe just add more of a melee element.

Are you running the battalion detachment? Are you using sniper scouts? I only tried them once and I felt disappointed and they are pretty damn expensive.

What are you running inside the rhinos? DC?

Cheers and thanks to both of you

**fatbudda319**

Remtek wrote:Even if you don't have +1 str you still want powerswords. I'd go with chaplain in this configuration, tho it's a bit much to have a character buff 5 guys, what is the rest of your army.

Str4 ap3 is very similar dmg to Str5 ap2 against most t4 infantry except t-shirt saves, and vs many of the t-shirt save units they are T3. Vs T7/T6 veichles, str4 powerswords are much better.

I thought Id seen a math hammer that suggested axes were generally better other than against T3 thats why I went with them. I've added my list, its currently in the army list section but any help with it is appreciated. The Chaplain is to go with the DC in Raven or atleast that was the plan.

Spoiler:

p5freak wrote:Drop the priest and get four more DC models. The priest can only revive one model each round, and the chance is 50%. If he fails he cannot fight. Why not start with four more models in the first place ? Four models will give you 8 attacks (12 when charging), instead of 3 for the priest. Go with poweraxes, for +1 str. Makes wounding easier.

Yeah i suppose that might be a better idea, I was planning on having them in the raven but I guess I might be better off just running them up the board?

**Melissia**

fatbudda319 wrote:
I thought Id seen a math hammer that suggested axes were generally better other than against T3

Axes buffed by a sanguinary priests are in fact better against T3 with 5+ saves. Axes that aren't buffed by priests are no better than power swords against T3 5+ saves.

Each S6 axe does 0.556 wounds per attack (before rerolls). S5 axes, S5 swords, or S4 swords all do 0.444 wounds per attack.

It isn't strength 5, but strength 6 you're aiming for. S6 axes are better against everything T3 than S5 axes, because of the new to-wound chart (S5 wounds T3 the same as T4-- on a 3+-- but S6 wounds T3 on a 2+).

**fatbudda319**

Melissia wrote:
fatbudda319 wrote:
I thought Id seen a math hammer that suggested axes were generally better other than against T3

Axes buffed by a sanguinary priests are in fact better against T3 with 5+ saves. Axes that aren't buffed by priests are no better than power swords against T3 5+ saves.

Each S6 axe does 0.556 wounds per attack (before rerolls). S5 axes, S5 swords, or S4 swords all do 0.444 wounds per attack.

It isn't strength 5, but strength 6 you're aiming for. S6 axes are better against everything T3 than S5 axes, because of the new to-wound chart (S5 wounds T3 the same as T4-- on a 3+-- but S6 wounds T3 on a 2+).

Sorry I meant that I thought the sword was only better vs T3 whilst the axe is better at chopping marines right?

**Martel732**

The sword is better vs marines if you have a priest.

**jcd386**

Spado wrote:
jcd386 wrote:
I think you might need a couple fodder/speedbump units in your list of you aren't taking melee type units. Because once most of your list gets into combat, it will probably die, and if not, they definitely lose a lot of effectiveness until it can shoot again.

Scouts and rhinos work pretty well for me, getting in things way and charging things to stall until i am ready to shoot and charge things on my own terms.

Alternatively, maybe just add more of a melee element.

Are you running the battalion detachment? Are you using sniper scouts? I only tried them once and I felt disappointed and they are pretty damn expensive.

What are you running inside the rhinos? DC?

Cheers and thanks to both of you

Just bolter scouts. 2 or 3 x5 is an easy way to help fill the battalion. And they don't do a ton every game, but they are cheap and are great at slowing down deep striking units and standing between the enemy and your shooty units. As long as they don't die during your turn when they charge, they will at least force a unit to fight them or fall back, and a lot of the time that's worth it.

The rhino can be for anything, really. Scouts, tacs, DC, even assaults or just characters as it can also help you go first. You should think of a rhino as a monstrous creature that you can use to lock people up, keep deep strikers off your stuff, and soak up anti tank fire, as well as hold a bunch of guys ready to plasma something.

**Melissia**

Eeeh. Kinda?

Each hit with an axe wounds 66.7% of the time.
Each hit with a sword wounds 50% of the time.

However.

The axe reduces the armor save to 5+, resulting in 0.444 kills per hit. The sword reduces the armor save to 6+, resulting in 0.417 kills per hit. The axe is marginally better than the sword against MEQ. Whether or not this is enough to bother iwth the additional point is up to you. You can get a better result by having a sanguinary priest near the swordsman; each S5 sword hit makes 0.667 wounds, of which 0.556 are unsaved.

**Martel732**

In practice, this doesn't matter much as your melee dudes get ripped apart by shooting to the point of ineffectiveness. You need boards where there is enough terrain to hide jumpers, but not so much that the IG can hide 4+ artillery tanks. That's a bit of a fine line.

**Melissia**

You must be really, really bad at using melee in order for that to be the case. Plenty of players are reporting success with their melee armies, and I've seen plenty of that first hand watching games while shooting the breeze at the store getting advice on painting.

**Martel732**

Many, many more are reporting success with gun lines. Because they're just better. Also remember I typically play against people who are very proficient.

**jcd386**

I'd be curious to see what people would consider a competitive marine melee focused army, because I'm not sure i see it. Without some kind of heavy shooting to soften up the bubble wrap or kill off the backfield units, I don't really see how you get into combat with the deadly shooting units of your opponent's army. All of the competitive lists I've seen so far with any marine book are shooty.