Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

Really simple.

I think Fear should work against models with ATSKNF. It's pretty silly that we have this USR, that doesn't work against half the armies out there. ATSKNF is already really good, but this adjustment would tone it down a bit.

Thoughts?

I agree with it in theory but I would want "And they shall know no fear" changed to "And they shall mostly know no fear".

 xole wrote:
I agree with it in theory but I would want "And they shall know no fear" changed to "And they shall mostly know no fear".

Well, most of the things that have Fear, it would be more of an unnatural thing, not the typical kind that Space Marines are conditioned for.

Mostly, it's been things like Daemons that are getting it.

I would be for atsknf having some modifying effect on fear (re-roll failed tests, or make every other army take a negative ld modifier for tests, or lessen the effect -1 ws or so ethi g) but still be effected. Between the fearlessmarmiesand atsknf armies there are very few that are effected. Throw in generally high ld and it get even worse. Maybe fear should be charged squad takes an ld check at ld-2, and models with atsknf check at full ld.

Breng77 wrote:
I would be for atsknf having some modifying effect on fear (re-roll failed tests, or make every other army take a negative ld modifier for tests, or lessen the effect -1 ws or so ethi g) but still be effected. Between the fearlessmarmiesand atsknf armies there are very few that are effected. Throw in generally high ld and it get even worse. Maybe fear should be charged squad takes an ld check at ld-2, and models with atsknf check at full ld.

Yeah, or just making them test normally at Majority LD, while ATSKNF may use the highest.

Just SOMETHING. As of right now, it's almost completely useless USR, and it really doesn't need to be.

It's a good usr, it does its job as intended, the issue is not the usr at all, the issue is how many space marines are in most metas.

If marines were a rare army to be played, fear would be alot more usefull

 Formosa wrote:
It's a good usr, it does its job as intended, the issue is not the usr at all, the issue is how many space marines are in most metas.

If marines were a rare army to be played, fear would be alot more usefull

You are the only person I have ever heard calling "Fear" a good USR. A USR that doesn't affect HALF the codexes out there, is not a good one. It hurts Xenos, and does nothing to Space Marines? How is that good?

 Formosa wrote:
It's a good usr, it does its job as intended, the issue is not the usr at all, the issue is how many space marines are in most metas.

If marines were a rare army to be played, fear would be alot more usefull

Except marines have been around, as a major component in every single edition since rogue freakin trader, where there was half xeno's as there is now.

To not build around the fact that the majority is MEQ is abysmal, considering they make up half the entire army list!

As I said, fear works, it does the job intended, the issue is not this usr as both replys have amply demonstrated, its the preponderance of marine players, not one of you would complain if a vast majority ( as in what the current percent of marine players) of your opponents were non marines.

Fear can be a pain in the backside to every non marine army, but most people play marines, so it looks worse than it actually is.

 Formosa wrote:
As I said, fear works, it does the job intended, the issue is not this usr as both replys have amply demonstrated, its the preponderance of marine players, not one of you would complain if a vast majority ( as in what the current percent of marine players) of your opponents were non marines.

Fear can be a pain in the backside to every non marine army, but most people play marines, so it looks worse than it actually is.

If it doesn't affect so many armies, then it is a problem with the USR, when it could say something such as

"Models with the ATSNF rule, may reroll a failed Fear test" Or something a long that. While the ATKNF rule could be updated to reflect that as well.

When a USR becomes useless against half the armies out there, there is an issue with it, in the design process.

Ah sasori, that I agree with, a re-roll would be better, but I disagree it's the fault of the usr, lots of people play the armies that are immune, this is not the fault of the usr, it's what people have chosen to play.

Now on another note I.think that the psychology rules in 40k are a joke and have been since 2nd ed, every armies ld needs to drop by at least 1, ld 10 should be extraordinary, 9 should be amazing, 8 should be elites only and 7 is the space marine norm, 6 for guard (7 for vets and sarges), combine that with your idea for fear and you get psychology that...works

But...how can Fear work...when they shall know none of it ...*head explodes*

In all seriousness, I do agree its a rather useless USR. No one ever takes something because it has Fear, and hardly anyone even factors it in. I'd probably forget my unit even had it. A re-roll or something of the like seems fair, because given the fluff and wording of ATSKNF, it would be a bit silly if it had zero effect on Fear.

It further makes Typhus useless. =(

Lol possessed and warp talons, most people forget about it and while it could be really nice, people only remember the 5++

Barrywise wrote:
Lol possessed and warp talons, most people forget about it and while it could be really nice, people only remember the 5++

Seeing as you send Warp Talons against things with 3+ armor due to lightning claws, It's really understandable when those 3+ armor saves ignore your fear.

 Formosa wrote:
It's a good usr, it does its job as intended, the issue is not the usr at all, the issue is how many space marines are in most metas.

If marines were a rare army to be played, fear would be alot more usefull

I disagree, it is the special rule not player choice. When the game has (DA, SW, BA, SM, GK, BT) 6 out of (orks, IG, Tau, Eldar, Necrons, Daemons, CSM, Dark Eldar, Tyranids, Sisters) 16 armies have ATSKNF, and that ability can confer to allies (Guard Blobs) and out of the remaining armies ORK, Daemons and Tyranids largely ignore the rule as well (with fearless), you have a rule that is flat out ignored by over half of the armies in the game. To me that makes it a bad design. Throw on top of that the high LD of most armies (Necrons generally don't care about fear, their assault units don't care at all). It makes fear generally useless. SO my assault unit with Fear can beat up on Tau....it already could.

Breng77 wrote:

 Formosa wrote:
It's a good usr, it does its job as intended, the issue is not the usr at all, the issue is how many space marines are in most metas.

If marines were a rare army to be played, fear would be alot more usefull

I disagree, it is the special rule not player choice. When the game has (DA, SW, BA, SM, GK, BT) 6 out of (orks, IG, Tau, Eldar, Necrons, Daemons, CSM, Dark Eldar, Tyranids, Sisters) 16 armies have ATSKNF, and that ability can confer to allies (Guard Blobs) and out of the remaining armies ORK, Daemons and Tyranids largely ignore the rule as well (with fearless), you have a rule that is flat out ignored by over half of the armies in the game. To me that makes it a bad design. Throw on top of that the high LD of most armies (Necrons generally don't care about fear, their assault units don't care at all). It makes fear generally useless. SO my assault unit with Fear can beat up on Tau....it already could.

What Breng said. In 40k, basically all armies that are okay with getting into CC have either fearless or ATSKNF. All loyalist marines have it, Orks have it, Tyranids have it, Daemons have it. For the armies that don't have it, the things that have fear will be winning in assault against them anyways: Necrons, Tau, Sisters, IG, Eldar and Dark Eldar. Aside from the few Eldar/DE aspect warriors that want to get into CC, the only army that wants to get into CC and doesn't have fearless or ATSKNF... is Chaos Space Marines. So the fear special rule basically will make a difference against one, maybe two faction(s). All other factions either completely ignore it, or you're going to be slaughtering in CC anyway.

That's not a well-designed and utilized special rule, by almost any measure.

So maybe the problem isn't in the fear mechanic, it is in the ATSKNF rule. Maybe it's time for marines to lose it. Just give them good Ld and maybe a reroll rule for failed morale. None of this magical we never retreat, can magically move faster after we do nonsense. The marine love is killing the game.

 Kyrolon wrote:
So maybe the problem isn't in the fear mechanic, it is in the ATSKNF rule. Maybe it's time for marines to lose it. Just give them good Ld and maybe a reroll rule for failed morale. None of this magical we never retreat, can magically move faster after we do nonsense. The marine love is killing the game.

Yes, ATSKNF is totally why MEQ Codices have been running circles around everyone else since 6th hit.


Except they haven't.

 Kyrolon wrote:
So maybe the problem isn't in the fear mechanic, it is in the ATSKNF rule. Maybe it's time for marines to lose it. Just give them good Ld and maybe a reroll rule for failed morale. None of this magical we never retreat, can magically move faster after we do nonsense. The marine love is killing the game.

Well ATSKNF is THE unique MEQ rule so getting rid of it is like changing the Str 4 AP 5 stats of the Bolter. You just can't. It's like...immoral...

Plus, ATSKNF isn't really Marine love. It's been a Marine rule for I don't know how long, long before they started loving Marines so much.

 washout77 wrote:

 Kyrolon wrote:
So maybe the problem isn't in the fear mechanic, it is in the ATSKNF rule. Maybe it's time for marines to lose it. Just give them good Ld and maybe a reroll rule for failed morale. None of this magical we never retreat, can magically move faster after we do nonsense. The marine love is killing the game.

Well ATSKNF is THE unique MEQ rule so getting rid of it is like changing the Str 4 AP 5 stats of the Bolter. You just can't. It's like...immoral...

Plus, ATSKNF isn't really Marine love. It's been a Marine rule for I don't know how long, long before they started loving Marines so much.

About third edition, second edition had them with special "Break tests", that upon failing they did not "broken and forced to flee", with several other special rules.

Not ATSKNF. They could still fail psychology based tests (Chaplains however let them reroll failed attempts if they were nearby)

 ZebioLizard2 wrote:

 washout77 wrote:

 Kyrolon wrote:
So maybe the problem isn't in the fear mechanic, it is in the ATSKNF rule. Maybe it's time for marines to lose it. Just give them good Ld and maybe a reroll rule for failed morale. None of this magical we never retreat, can magically move faster after we do nonsense. The marine love is killing the game.

Well ATSKNF is THE unique MEQ rule so getting rid of it is like changing the Str 4 AP 5 stats of the Bolter. You just can't. It's like...immoral...

Plus, ATSKNF isn't really Marine love. It's been a Marine rule for I don't know how long, long before they started loving Marines so much.

About third edition, second edition had them with special "Break tests", that upon failing they did not "broken and forced to flee", with several other special rules.

Not ATSKNF. They could still fail psychology based tests (Chaplains however let them reroll failed attempts if they were nearby)

You are correct, thank you

What I was trying to say was just that getting rid of ATSKNF is not really the solution, but they should just change it a bit. As it stands, Fear is a pretty useless USR overall. Getting rid of ATSKNF shouldn't be done, but maybe make some edit that allows Fear to work against it in some cases

ATSKNF is just... irritating.

It's the one rule in the book that basically says "IGNORE THIS ENTIRE CHAPTER OF THE RULEBOOK".

No one rule should do that. Especially not a free one.

How about;

And They Shall Know No Fear: A model with this rule may reroll rally checks and cannot be destroyed by Sweeping Advance - instead, the models remain locked in combat.

This retains the gist of the rule (immune to sweeping advance, difficult to break permanently) while neutralising some of the truly broken aspects (immune to running away ever, suffering no penalties for having that ability).

Plus, it makes Fearless a lot more unique and distinct.

 Furyou Miko wrote:
ATSKNF is just... irritating.

It's the one rule in the book that basically says "IGNORE THIS ENTIRE CHAPTER OF THE RULEBOOK".

No one rule should do that. Especially not a free one.

How about;

And They Shall Know No Fear: A model with this rule may reroll rally checks and cannot be destroyed by Sweeping Advance - instead, the models remain locked in combat.

This retains the gist of the rule (immune to sweeping advance, difficult to break permanently) while neutralising some of the truly broken aspects (immune to running away ever, suffering no penalties for having that ability).

Plus, it makes Fearless a lot more unique and distinct.

This makes a lot more sense as it is written now ATSKNF is one of the most unnecessarily strong USR's in the book.

I'd leave the fear immunity. Maybe give re-roll to fear with some additional morale effects.

Just get rid of the "I just run away from a fight like a little girl so I can move even faster!" nonsense. Maybe change the name to something appropriate: Hit and run and walk and walk again. At least remove the extra move after regrouping if they still have normal movement.

I don't mind it being strong. I do mind it being counter-intuitive and showing SM's as the most experienced army at running away.