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Played a guy today had some interesting views on how Reserves work. Long OP, bear with me, because it was very confusing and complicated.

Here's his Vanilla Marine list (roughly):

HQ:
Chaplain on Bike
Khan on Bike
Honour Guard on Bikes

Troops:
Scout Snipers, combat squadded
Scout Squad, combat squadded
Scout Squad (5 man)
Scout Squad on Bikes
Tac Squad on Bikes (counts for Troop b/c of Khan)
Tac Squad on Bikes (counts for Troop b/c of Khan)

Fast:
Land Speeder Storm
Land Speeder Storm
Land Speeder Storm
StormTalon
StormTalon
StormTalon
------------------------------------------------

I deployed first. It's irrelevant what my list was. He deployed the Sniper Scouts in two units, and both of the Tac Squads on Bikes. The ST were escorting the Speeders, which each had a scout squad embarked; the HQs were all together in one squad. (This, to my count, was 4 of his 14 units, since Flyers don't count toward the total). I looked at his reserve pile, did a quick count and told him he needed three more units down. He did not like this at all. I showed him the "Reserves" rules that said he could only have half of his units in reserve.

He said that the Chaplain, Khan, and Honour Guard count as one unit, since they were in Reserve together. I showed him the sentence that said ICs counted as their own unit for reserve counting.
He said that since the Scouts were inside the Speeders, it counted as one unit. I showed him the sentence about this only working with Dedicated Transports. [It also works, via the BRB FAQ, on any vehicle that must start in reserve (ie. Flyer that is also a Transport.)]
He said that units that are Escorted by the ST don't count at all, since the ST must start in Reserve, and therefore the unit it is Escorting must also start in Reserve. I laughed out loud (unfortunately, I rudely couldn't contain my incredulous-ness at the ridiculous-ocity) (some new words for ya) and we read the WD rules, which said nothing of the sort.

This, essentially, ruined his strategy, which was to have EVERYthing outflank. He called his friend, who "has been playing way longer than either of us," and his friend and I agreed that I was correctly stating the rules.

My opponent told me that he was going to do some research, and get back to me. We played three turns, and then he quit (Scouring, I had 6 points to his four-soon-to-be-0).

Soooooo, after that long OP, I'd like to hear some Dakka opinions! Please correct me if I am wrong, or support my arguments. Cheers!

There is a lot wrong with this scenario.
Basically, the army list is all over the place unless you breached 2k points which I don't know if you do.

Scout bikers aren't troops.

Everything on that list counts towards the 50% reserves rule, no question, bar the flyers. There is nothing in that list that allows you to put more than 6 units in reserves with the flyers.

Elric, you clearly understand the rules perfectly well, and the guy you were playing clearly had not read or comprehended them. Not much else to say.

 liturgies of blood wrote:
There is a lot wrong with this scenario.
Basically, the army list is all over the place unless you breached 2k points which I don't know if you do.

Scout bikers aren't troops.

We were at 2500, we each had 2 primary detachments.
Khan makes Tac Bikes Troops, so he had 4 troops.
His LIST was legal, it was just his reserves organisation that was illegal.

Everything on that list counts towards the 50% reserves rule, no question, bar the flyers. There is nothing in that list that allows you to put more than 6 units in reserves with the flyers.

Alright, good that one person doesn't think I'm crazy.

Elric Greywolf wrote:

 liturgies of blood wrote:
There is a lot wrong with this scenario.
Basically, the army list is all over the place unless you breached 2k points which I don't know if you do.

Scout bikers aren't troops.

We were at 2500, we each had 2 primary detachments.
Khan makes Tac Bikes Troops, so he had 4 troops.
His LIST was legal, it was just his reserves organisation that was illegal.

Right he makes SM Bike squads Troops, not Scout Bikers. Scout Bikers are still FA which means (unless he did not have Scout Bikers) he had 7 FA.

Good point by Brother Happyjew. I count 7 FA units too...

Elric Greywolf wrote:
Played a guy today had some interesting views on how Reserves work. Long OP, bear with me, because it was very confusing and complicated.

Here's his Vanilla Marine list (roughly):

HQ:
Chaplain on Bike
Khan on Bike
Honour Guard on Bikes

Troops:
Scout Snipers, combat squadded
Scout Squad, combat squadded
Scout Squad (5 man)
Scout Squad on Bikes
Tac Squad on Bikes (counts for Troop b/c of Khan)
Tac Squad on Bikes (counts for Troop b/c of Khan)

Fast:
Land Speeder Storm
Land Speeder Storm
Land Speeder Storm
StormTalon
StormTalon
StormTalon
------------------------------------------------

God I love it when people don't know the rules then get pissy about it. So the easy way with reserves is just to count the units.

The only vaguely confusing area is combat squads, but it is resolved that split squads count as two units for total units... so assuming everything combat squads... that's 14 units (assuming the bikes aren't big enough to combat squad). Which means you can keep 7 plus the talons in reserve. If the bike squads are big enough to be reserved then its 16 allowing 8.

You appear to have been completely in the right.

What's really weird, as a White Scar player, is how terrible this army is!

Khan was crap before furious charge and outflank got nuked, now he's a big pile a dreadful. Khan on a bike = 205 points. Captain on a bike with artificer armour and power fist = 175. That extra 30 points earns you a small buff on one squad (potentially useful if allying with Dark Angels to get Black Knights, but on the over-costed mess that is now the command bike squad its a waste), outflank to some other units which is or marginal use as bikes are so fast anyway and it doesn't confer to vehicles and you lose the 2+ armour save and get a rubbish unique weapon. Woot woot.






Automatically Appended Next Post:

Elric Greywolf wrote:

This, essentially, ruined his strategy, which was to have EVERYthing outflank. He called his friend, who "has been playing way longer than either of us," and his friend and I agreed that I was correctly stating the rules.

This amuses me too. Why dear god would you want to do this?!? Bikes can move 24" a turn from turn 1, why gamble on being in completely the wrong place!

You were entirely in the right. He has an illegal army (seven FA choices), and doesn't have a clue about the rules for reserves.

 grrrfranky wrote:
You were entirely in the right. He has an illegal army (seven FA choices), and doesn't have a clue about the rules for reserves.

This those scout bikers were a FA choice too far.

Even I am aware of these basic rules... and I've only been playing for 3 months....

What's more tragic is that he actually bought the models to field the army

Scouts in Land Speeder Storms. Flying meatsacks of death.

They had their place in 5th, especially with Vulkan -cheap fast early game melta with a scoring unit.

Also, the Storm Talons cannot escort an Outflanking unit.