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I'm hoping I'm missing something obvious here but both of the ranged attacks that an exalted flamer on burning chariot has are 'Heavy' so he must snapfire (or in the case of the flamer not fire it at all).

It seems if it's stationary he can fire its short ranged weapons normally, if it moves at all it must snapfire its heavy weapons.

I'm really hoping I missed something in the chariot rules here that always lets him fire otherwise this unit is completely pointless and an utter fail in rules design. I suspect they thought of it as the vehicle firing the weapons but thats not what they have written in the codex.

Chariots are vehicles aren't they?

Yeah they are, but I believe the situation in question has the heavy weapon on the rider/passenger rather than the vehicle itself. If this is the case then he is bound by the normal rules for models firing out of vehicles i.e he counts as moving if the vehicle moves so could only snap heavy weapons (unless he has Relentless etc).

Wisdom appears to be correct, the weapons are granted very specifically to the rider, not the chariot, so they are fired using the transport firing point rules (with modifications for being open topped)

That means, if the vehicle moved Pink Fire can't be used, and Blue Fire will be Snap Shots.

 Drunkspleen wrote:
Wisdom appears to be correct, the weapons are granted very specifically to the rider, not the chariot, so they are fired using the transport firing point rules (with modifications for being open topped)

That means, if the vehicle moved Pink Fire can't be used, and Blue Fire will be Snap Shots.

So basically we are left with a frail, useless vehicle as one of the primary anti-armour selections....I think somebody was asleep at the wheel on this one. I expect that to get FAQ'ed really soon (which can be done just by giving the exalted flamer the Relentless USR).

I'm sure the intention was to make the Exalted Flamer an official part of the chariot (since he can't disembark), but unfortunately, they set up the unit classification wrong.

It does mean he can overwatch with it too. If it was on the vehicle he couldn't.

Its a hard problem to solve without a complete re-write.

If they make them assault or give him relentless then he still can't fire them when it moves 12", they kind of need to move them to vehicle weapons but this will require quite some rules adding which they are alway loath to do and even if they did become vehicle weapons then they would be BS:3 and couldn't overwatch :-(


Has anyone got the white dwarf? I'd be interested to see if they moved and fired it in the battle report.

WisdomLS wrote:

Has anyone got the white dwarf? I'd be interested to see if they moved and fired it in the battle report.

In turn 1 of the WD BR the BC moved from one side of a large ruin to the other (unquestionably more than 6" and probably less than 12") and then proceeded to fire at a land raider.

WisdomLS wrote:
Has anyone got the white dwarf? I'd be interested to see if they moved and fired it in the battle report.

Battle Reports often have incorrect rules, so there will be no help there.

WisdomLS wrote:
Its a hard problem to solve without a complete re-write.

If they make them assault or give him relentless then he still can't fire them when it moves 12", they kind of need to move them to vehicle weapons but this will require quite some rules adding which they are alway loath to do and even if they did become vehicle weapons then they would be BS:3 and couldn't overwatch :-(


Has anyone got the white dwarf? I'd be interested to see if they moved and fired it in the battle report.

The problem is, they tried to make 2 very different vehicles out of a single unit. How the hell the playtesters didn't catch this, I'll never know.

All of the Chariots are screwy. They are not actually Transports and don't have any Access Points or Fire Points listed either

The Burning Chariot is totally broken though. I think they intended that the Exalted Flamer attacks to be treated as weapons on the vehicle (but even that needs extra information).

Yeah, I was playing it wrong this weekend, because I assumed that the weapons were for the vehicle.

TzeentchNet wrote:
All of the Chariots are screwy. They are not actually Transports and don't have any Access Points or Fire Points listed either

The Burning Chariot is totally broken though. I think they intended that the Exalted Flamer attacks to be treated as weapons on the vehicle (but even that needs extra information).

Chariots are all open topped, so they don't need access/fire points listed. As for the Burning Chariot, I will definately hold off purchasing one until they fix the rules.

Open-topped vehicles don't need an access point stated strictly as worded (despite being under the Open-Topped Transports header), but Transport and Chariot are not the same Type (Warhammer 40,000 Rulebook, p. 70) and the rule about Fire Points specifically says: "Open-topped Transports do not have specific Fire Points."

They obviously intended all the Chariots to also be Transports (they list a Transport Capacity after all), but Chariots themselves have no special rule about shooting from them. I could be missing something though.

It is has a Transport Capacity it's a Transport. If it's a Transport and is Open Topped, it's an Open Topped Transport.

Yeah, I wrote about this on my blog and on BoLS today.

I will be calling GW HQ tomorrow and hopefully getting a better answer.

I was going to get 3, but if rules are this terrible, I'm seriously thinking against it.

Yeah, RAW is really screwed up. You can't even choose to disembark the Rider. I think they tried to do to many things at once with the Vehicle, and screwed up.

Luckily, my group plays it RAI, but RAW is pretty clear right now.

which RAI dou you use exactly? how far are you allowed to move to be able to fire both weapons without penalties?

If you presume that the intention was vehicle mounted, then that would be RAI. If you presume that the intention was indeed to be infantry mounted then you're using RAW for RAI. Not very helpful, but this one is a bit of a mess.

Is the rider with the heavy weapons abe to disembark the chariot? If so, then yes, chariots suck. If no, then the rider is vehicle crew, making the weapons in question part of the chariot and therefore follow vehicle weapon rules rather than infantry weapon rules.

SJ

 jeffersonian000 wrote:
Is the rider with the heavy weapons abe to disembark the chariot? If no, then the rider is vehicle crew, making the weapons in question part of the chariot and therefore follow vehicle weapon rules rather than infantry weapon rules.

SJ

This isn't in the BRB rules for Chariots, nor do I see it anywhere on the Burning Chariot rules. Where are you getting this from?

 jeffersonian000 wrote:
Is the rider with the heavy weapons abe to disembark the chariot? If so, then yes, chariots suck. If no, then the rider is vehicle crew, making the weapons in question part of the chariot and therefore follow vehicle weapon rules rather than infantry weapon rules.

SJ

That the passenger is prohibited from disembarking doesn't make him part of the crew. He's still a passenger, and still subject to the rules for passengers. Otherwise he'd be written like the Skull Cannon, which is a Chariot with no transport capacity. So he can only snap-fire his heavy weapons if the vehicle moves, making him less than effective.

Chrysis wrote:

 jeffersonian000 wrote:
Is the rider with the heavy weapons abe to disembark the chariot? If so, then yes, chariots suck. If no, then the rider is vehicle crew, making the weapons in question part of the chariot and therefore follow vehicle weapon rules rather than infantry weapon rules.

SJ

That the passenger is prohibited from disembarking doesn't make him part of the crew. He's still a passenger, and still subject to the rules for passengers. Otherwise he'd be written like the Skull Cannon, which is a Chariot with no transport capacity. So he can only snap-fire his heavy weapons if the vehicle moves, making him less than effective.

Unfortunately, that about sums it up.

 jeffersonian000 wrote:
Is the rider with the heavy weapons abe to disembark the chariot? If so, then yes, chariots suck. If no, then the rider is vehicle crew, making the weapons in question part of the chariot and therefore follow vehicle weapon rules rather than infantry weapon rules.

SJ

None of that has any basis in the rules. The Ex Flamer is stated to be a passenger.

Well, since the Flamer dude is a "passenger", and follows "passenger" rules, then chariots seem to be a very bad unit to spend points and cash on. Until GW puts out an Errata or FAQ that fixes this blunder.

SJ

 ClassicCarraway wrote:

WisdomLS wrote:
Its a hard problem to solve without a complete re-write.

If they make them assault or give him relentless then he still can't fire them when it moves 12", they kind of need to move them to vehicle weapons but this will require quite some rules adding which they are alway loath to do and even if they did become vehicle weapons then they would be BS:3 and couldn't overwatch :-(


Has anyone got the white dwarf? I'd be interested to see if they moved and fired it in the battle report.

The problem is, they tried to make 2 very different vehicles out of a single unit. How the hell the playtesters didn't catch this, I'll never know.

GW doesn't use playtesters except for themselves. Its a bad idea to playtest your own stuff, you'll miss stuff that other people will catch.

it sucks but its ture dont waste your money till its fixed

But not only did chariot move and shot in one turn in the WD battle rep, but its semms it shot at 2 different targets: it killed done squad and shot an land raider but with no effect

Since it is a fast vehicle, wouldn't that allow the passenger to fire 2 weapons at ballistic skill when moving at cruising speed? or does that only effect the vehicle?

No, it's because both of the weapons are "Heavy" that causes the problem. As soon as the chariot moves the infantry inside count as moving.