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Hi ho Peeps. Just wanted to see if I can get a consensuses on a question that was brought to my attention.

When using Polymorphine from Reserves, can a unit in a transport be the target of the Polymorphine attack? My call is that the Polymorphine ability can not hit a unit in a transport based on the fact that you can not see a unit in a transport, thus you can not harm a unit in a transport.

and it has already been FAQ'd regarding the use of Polymorphine being used against a Vehicle Squadron.

So what is your thoughts? Am I playing this right or am I not.

Per the wording, you can pick any unit. However, strict RAW you cannot allocate wounds if the unit is out of sight.

This means while you can choose a unit embarked in a transport, any wounds are immediately lost as you do not have LOS. HIWPI, you can choose an embarked unit and allocate wounds (using random allocation).

On a side note, you (technically) could also pick a unit that is still in reserve. Of course if you did this you would immediately mishap...

Maybe.

It all depends on how you treat attacks that are neither shooting nor melee, something which GW has not given us rules for dealing with.

 Drunkspleen wrote:
Maybe.

It all depends on how you treat attacks that are neither shooting nor melee, something which GW has not given us rules for dealing with.

To be able to populate the wound pool and allocate wounds you have to use the shooting rules to do so, or those abilities do nothing.

It seems that most people are leaning toward my thoughts. That you cannot allocate wounds to a unit that you do not have LOS to

I would agree that polymorphine cannot affect embarked units.

helldrake can allocate vector strike when it doesnt have LOS,


apparently you can allocate vector strike wounds when the drake is off the board too,

so if callidius simply gets to pick a unit on the board, and a unit in a transport is on the board,

why not hit it? why would these need LOS when it isnt a normal LOS requireing attack like other shooting/cc attacks?


the callidius can still be places within 3" of the unit like it says so no rules are broken.

Actually easysauce, it doesn't say it has to be a unit on the board. Technically you could pick a unit still in Reserve. However, since the assassin has to be placed within 3" of the unit...you either cannot deploy at all or you automatically mishap for DSing off the board.

 Happyjew wrote:
Actually easysauce, it doesn't say it has to be a unit on the board. Technically you could pick a unit still in Reserve. However, since the assassin has to be placed within 3" of the unit...you either cannot deploy at all or you automatically mishap for DSing off the board.

while i think you are technically right about the lack of retriction on the target unit,

you cannot place the callidius within 3" of the target unit if its in reserves,

that would be my restriction on targetting the unit in reserves, that I cant place my callidius within 3 after wards, so I cant target them

that seems right to me, also you cant arrive from reserves into reserves (which is where the target would be as well)

but yes, if it wasnt for the place withing 3" after clause, hit stuff in reserve away (other units can hit stuff in reserve too, so not really a game breaker)

easysauce wrote:
helldrake can allocate vector strike when it doesnt have LOS,


apparently you can allocate vector strike wounds when the drake is off the board too,

so if callidius simply gets to pick a unit on the board, and a unit in a transport is on the board,

why not hit it? why would these need LOS when it isnt a normal LOS requireing attack like other shooting/cc attacks?


the callidius can still be places within 3" of the unit like it says so no rules are broken.

Note that to even get Vector Strike hits, the Hell Drake must have passed over the model in the movement phase, even if that movement phase took the Hell Drake into ongoing reserves.

Until they get a FAQ about this issue, I still plan to play it as I have been, where I I do not target units in transports, as the models in the unit are not actually on the board.

units in transports, save for necrons, are on the board, embarked in a transport,

if they are not on the board,

coteaz gets to fire at them when they "arrive from reserve" via disembarking,

of course they are not arriving from reserve, hence they are already on the table

the other way you know they are on the table, is I can hit them if I blow up the transport (another thing that wont work on necrons, because they really are "off the board" in reserves)

BLADERIKER wrote:

easysauce wrote:
helldrake can allocate vector strike when it doesnt have LOS,


apparently you can allocate vector strike wounds when the drake is off the board too,

so if callidius simply gets to pick a unit on the board, and a unit in a transport is on the board,

why not hit it? why would these need LOS when it isnt a normal LOS requireing attack like other shooting/cc attacks?


the callidius can still be places within 3" of the unit like it says so no rules are broken.

Note that to even get Vector Strike hits, the Hell Drake must have passed over the model in the movement phase, even if that movement phase took the Hell Drake into ongoing reserves.

Until they get a FAQ about this issue, I still plan to play it as I have been, where I I do not target units in transports, as the models in the unit are not actually on the board.

Exactly this. The Rules for embarking state that the models are removed from the board.

easysauce wrote:
units in transports, save for necrons, are on the board, embarked in a transport,

if they are not on the board,

coteaz gets to fire at them when they "arrive from reserve" via disembarking,

of course they are not arriving from reserve, hence they are already on the table

the other way you know they are on the table, is I can hit them if I blow up the transport (another thing that wont work on necrons, because they really are "off the board" in reserves)

Note: that the Units disembarking from a Transport are not arriving from Reserve, but are disembarking from a Transport.

Still The Physical model of the unit in the transport is not on the board, if you could target units in transports then Barrage/Ordnance weapons and anything that hit the transport would also hit the unit inside, which at this time is not the case.

you can hit the unit inside a transport, just blow up the transport
with a 6 result and the unit insde takes hits

the unit is not off the board,

it is on the board, embarked in a transport,

If the unit in the transport is "on the table" for purposes of overwatch, being hit by "exploded" results on the damage table, for purposes of casting psychic powers (on its own unit, or witch fire out a fire point) and is "on the table" to shoot at other units from access points,

then why is it suddenly, "off the table" for the polymorphines purpose?

we have to apply rules the same, so if the unit inside the transport is not "on the table" why do they fire overwatch ect?

why can a unit "off the table" hit me, but I cannot hit it?

fact is, on or off the board, doesnt matter to polymorphine at all, only stipulation is being placed within 3" of the unit after the hits are cause


Automatically Appended Next Post:

BLADERIKER wrote:
Note: that the Units disembarking from a Transport are not arriving from Reserve, but are disembarking from a Transport.

Still The Physical model of the unit in the transport is not on the board, if you could target units in transports then Barrage/Ordnance weapons and anything that hit the transport would also hit the unit inside, which at this time is not the case.

i never said they were in reserves in a transport, except for necrons, which are FAQ'd to be,

barrage weapons state you have to place the template over the target unit, you cannot do this to a unit inside a vehicle,

poly doesnt have that stipulation, it is different, simply says pick a unit, hit it, place callidius within 3"

as long as you can place the callidius within 3", you have broken no rules,

the squad is embarked and on or off the table, does not matter because polymorphine does not say the target unit has to be on the table.

there are other skills besides polymorphine that can target units not on the table as well,



one cannot claim the unit embarked inside is both on the table for shooting over watch, pyschic powers, rolling orders, ect

then say its not on the table for other purposes

Actually, you can place a marker over a unit inside a vehicle. Since all distances for embarked units are measured to the transport's hull, a marker over the transport is exactly the same as a marker over the embarked unit.

being able to target units in a transport due to a special rule does not change how the normal shooting process works,

pick a target, as long as the assasins placed within 3" after the hits, then no rules are broken,

embarked units are on the board fireing their guns, for overwatch and casting powers,

if you say they are not, then have fun not shooting with embarked units i guess,

cant have it both ways an say they are on the table for the actions you want to perform,

but they are not on the table for actions you dont want to happen

either way, units being on the board is NOT a requirement for polymorphine, only being within 3" of the unit is

easysauce wrote:
being able to target units in a transport due to a special rule does not change how the normal shooting process works,

Great - so the assassin is unable to allocate wounds. Good job!
Even if you assume he's able to trace LoS from where he gets placed - he cannot trace LoS to the embarked unit. Because they're embarked you see.

rigeld2 wrote:

easysauce wrote:
being able to target units in a transport due to a special rule does not change how the normal shooting process works,

Great - so the assassin is unable to allocate wounds. Good job!
Even if you assume he's able to trace LoS from where he gets placed - he cannot trace LoS to the embarked unit. Because they're embarked you see.

LOS is NOT a requirement for poly morphine,

LOS is a requirement for hits,

the hits in polymorphine are already caused by the special rule, wounds do not need LOS for every thing

LOS is not a requirement for polymorphine, just like LOS is not required for vector strike auto hits

is the unit a unit?
yes
can you place the callidius within 3" of the unit
yes

then you can polymorphine them, thats the rules,
if the rules said "pick a unit within LOS" then you might has a leg to stand on,

but as it is, the unit in a transport is a unit, they are on the board, and the callidius can be placed within 3" of them

wounds on the unit inside are resolved the same as when the vehicle blows up and they are hit and wounded that way (despite there being no LOS to them in that case either)

BLADERIKER wrote:

easysauce wrote:
units in transports, save for necrons, are on the board, embarked in a transport,

if they are not on the board,

coteaz gets to fire at them when they "arrive from reserve" via disembarking,

of course they are not arriving from reserve, hence they are already on the table

the other way you know they are on the table, is I can hit them if I blow up the transport (another thing that wont work on necrons, because they really are "off the board" in reserves)

Note: that the Units disembarking from a Transport are not arriving from Reserve, but are disembarking from a Transport.

Still The Physical model of the unit in the transport is not on the board, if you could target units in transports then Barrage/Ordnance weapons and anything that hit the transport would also hit the unit inside, which at this time is not the case.

Yep, it;s almost like when the rulebook (page 78, Embarking) says that you remove it from the table you do, in fact, remove it from the table, and when you disembark you are not arriving from reserve. As you werent placed in reserve.

can models that are off the table shoot at models on the table?


does the polymorphine rule say you HAVE to target a unit,

or a unit on the table?


hint, it just says unit


the only requirements for polymorphine, in the rules,

is that the target be a unit,

and the callidius be placed within 3" of it

both are fufilled when hitting a unit in a transport,

you are assuming that units off the table cannot be hit, this is 100% false, they can be hit by special rules,
they can be hit by a "vehicle exploded result" as well,

easysauce wrote:
LOS is a requirement for hits,

False.

the hits in polymorphine are already caused by the special rule, wounds do not need LOS for every thing

Page 16, Out of Sight. Does it refer to hits or wounds?

wounds on the unit inside are resolved the same as when the vehicle blows up and they are hit and wounded that way (despite there being no LOS to them in that case either)

Citation required. I'm pretty sure you're making up the first part of that as a HYWPI.

so rigled2, you assert that vector strike needs LOS to caused hits/wounds then?

you also assert then that when a vehicle suffers a "blown up" result that its passengers are not hit?

because, after all, the original weapon had no LOS to them

easysauce wrote:
so rigled2, you assert that vector strike needs LOS to caused hits/wounds then?

you also assert then that when a vehicle suffers a "blown up" result that its passengers are not hit?

because, after all, the original weapon had no LOS to them

I can't recall if Vector Strike was FAQed to allow it or not, but yes.

Find permission t allocate wounds without referencing the shooting rules - which means OoS dumps the wound pool.

the unit is given permission to take D6 hits from the callidius, in the polymorphine special rule

it simply says to pick a unit, and they suffer D6 str4 ap2 hits, then you place the model within 3" of that unit,

you arguing that a non shooting/cc attack with its OWN special rules is bound by regular rules that dont apply to it, is false,

do not put the restrictions of normal cc/shooting attacks on a special rule that is neither,

it is not a shooting attack, nor CC attack, so does not follow those rules,

the only two stipulations on that unit suffering D6 hits is that they be a unit, and that the callidius be placed within 3"

its NOT a shooting attack, and LOS is not one of the criteria for choosing a unit.


you will find that it has been established that vector strikes also do not need los,

why do you think the general rules for shooting/cc overule this specific special rule?

why do you think that despite vector strike being allowed to hit and wound outside LOS, while it is even off the board in reserves, while callidius cannot cause hits?

why can models inside a transport be hit from the "explodes" result if the normal shooting rules never allow for models in a transport to be hit? you claim they never are, yet here is an example where they clearly do suffer hits/wounds depite being out of LOS

more examples of passengers suffering hits/wounds while inside the transport due to things other then direct shooting/CC attacks
-over heat,
-perils
-exploded damage table

by your logic, models in transports are invincible, do not lose models to overheat, perils, or exploded damge results on the table,

easysauce wrote:
do not put the restrictions of normal cc/shooting attacks on a special rule that is neither,

it is not a shooting attack, nor CC attack, so does not follow those rules,

the only two stipulations on that unit suffering D6 hits is that they be a unit, and that the callidius be placed within 3"

its NOT a shooting attack, and LOS is not one of the criteria for choosing a unit.

How does it allocate wounds - you must have a page citation like I already asked for, right?
Remember, don't reference the shooting rules whatsoever.

you will find that it has been established that vector strikes also do not need los,

Established where?

why do you think the general rules for shooting/cc overule this specific special rule?

There's a specific method of allocation? That's all I asked about and requested a citation for.

why do you think that despite vector strike being allowed to hit and wound outside LOS, while it is even off the board in reserves, while callidius cannot cause hits?

Because Vector Strike being given a specific exemption does not grant that exemption to any other ability.

why can models inside a transport be hit from the "explodes" result if the normal shooting rules never allow for models in a transport to be hit? you claim they never are, yet here is an example where they clearly do suffer hits/wounds depite being out of LOS

Um.. because there's a specific method of allocating in the exploding vehicle rule isn't there?

more examples of passengers suffering hits/wounds while inside the transport due to things other then direct shooting/CC attacks
-over heat,
-perils
-exploded damage table

by your logic, models in transports are invincible, do not lose models to overheat, perils, or exploded damge results on the table,

No, all of those have specific methods of allocation. So that's not what I'm saying at all.

Does Polymorphine have a specific method of allocation, or does it need to fall back on the shooting rules?

how do you allocate vector strike wounds then rigel2d?


your theory that vector strike wounds and polymorphine wounds cannot be allocated is false,

there is a specific rule for hitting units with polymorphine,

there is a specific rule for hitting units with vector strike.

choose a unit, they take hits, place the assasin within 3"

thats the only WRITTEN rules on polymorphine (which is not CC or shooting, stop bringing up irrelevant rules please, or explain how vector strike is allocated without useing CC/shooting rules)


go ahead, I would LOVE it if plymorphine did not work on units in transports,

because that would mean you cannot fly something off the table and still cause vector strikes

seriously, its not how I would play, nor how I want the rules to be written, but thats how they are written,

RAW is
pick a unit, it suffers d6 hits, place the assasin

thats it,


even if you ignore the rest rigeld2, how do you explain that poly works at all then? even on a unit out in the open?

so say the unit chosen is in the open, process is:

they are chosen, they suffer d6 hits, then the assasin is placed on the board,

the unit was out in the open, but the assasin isnt on the board yet, how can the assasin have LOS even when the unit is NOT in a transport?

there fore the assasin cannot cause wounds with polymorphine, on any unit at all, ever.

Correct. Just like from a strict RAW stance, TFTD cannot allocate wound do to it happening before the model is on the board.

RAW you need LOS to allocate wounds. Most people are willing to make exceptions for attacks from special rules.

 Happyjew wrote:
Correct. Just like from a strict RAW stance, TFTD cannot allocate wound do to it happening before the model is on the board.

RAW you need LOS to allocate wounds. Most people are willing to make exceptions for attacks from special rules.

tftd??

whats that

terror from the deep, Its a tyranid thing

I'll touch on a couple things I have seen.

1: When a Vehicle Suffers an Explode result on the Vehicle damage table, the unit inside will take a number of automatic hits that are equal to the number of models said to be embarked in the transport, at STR 4, Ap-. The units inside do not however, take the str of the hit from whatever it was the caused the explode result in the first place. IE.. A Lascannon, Melta...ect.

2: Units inside a transport can shoot out of any fire point up to a limit given in the transport rules. Open Top transports let everyone inside take a shot. The Units embarked in a transport may not be on the psychical field of play but can still act in some regards as though they still were. IE, Assault Vehicles, Open top... ect.

3: For a Vector strike to even work the model has to have passed over another model, meaning that before the Vector Strike happened the unit that was going to preform the Vector Strike would have already had LOS, as the hits from Vector Strike happen when the Two models collide/pass in mid air, and not due to shooting nor CC.

Some food for thought. Let us say that the Polymorphine attack roll max hits, and then max wounds on a ten man marine unit in a rhino, what happens when said unit fails its Leadership check or is said unit immune to Moral effects as it is in a transport? Not sure if there are rules regarding this.