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Hey all,

I don't know if this has been discussed already but I can't seem to find a definitive answer on this:

Does the Baron when added to an Eldar Seer Council benefit from the re-roll of fortune?
Some say he doesn't because he is a Dark Eldar and because fortune "targets" only Eldar he will not benefit. Fortune in de Eldar Codex says that you only have to "target" an Eldar unit and then the unit gets to re-roll their saves. So when you cast it on the council, Baron should also benefit from the re-rolls because the "unit" can re-roll the saves (this is also stated in the Eldar Codex). Furthermore BRB says on page 39: "While an independant character is part of a unit, he counts as part of the unit for all rules purposes, though he still follows the rules for characters." Additionally further along on the same page "Independant characters and ongoing effects" Explains quite clearly exactly what happens to an IC that is joined with a unit that is targeted by a psyker ability (the example is soul blaze). So again this would imply that Baron benefits from fortune.

But now comes the tricky part:

Is the unit with Baron attached still considered an "Eldar unit"? As it is now a mixed unit of Eldar and one Dark Eldar character. As written above fortune can only be cast on Eldar units. So my question is: can fortune be cast on a mixed unit of Eldar + one DE character (in this case the Baron)?
Or can I just target the Farseer(s) with the Warlocks with fortune seperately while Baron is in the unit and then he still benefits because of battle brothers and the IC rules on page 39 of the rulebook?

It is generally played that Fortune can only target an Eldar unit, but that having a DE character attached doesn't stop it being an Eldar unit. Per the IC rules, a character joined to a squad counts as being a normal member of that squad.

Thanks for the answer. Then it is clear now, page 39 says it all.

This is not always the case. Check with the TO, or ask your opponent in friendly games. It's a valid argument to say that any DE in an Eldar unit makes it a non-Eldar or 'Dual' unit.

Most places I've been wont allow it. Joining the squad doesn't make Sathonyx, or any DE ally, an Eldar, it only makes him a member of the unit. The FAQ is very clear on that point. Not very many players are going to disallow an Eldar player from using any psychic powers on the squad simply because of any DE in the squad. They don't suddenly cease to be Eldar when both Fortune/Guide are cast, then become Eldar to benefit simply because they are in a squad. MOST reasonable people will play it that since the power targets an Eldar unit, then only the Eldar in the unit benefit. Using a loophole to get around a rule is one thing, using a loophole to get around an FAQ is stretching it.

When did FAQ update that the IC joining a unit doesn't get the benefit of the psychic power?

Just looked through the Eldar one and BRB one and don't really see it, might have just missed it, could you tell me where that is said?

 Akar wrote:
This is not always the case. Check with the TO, or ask your opponent in friendly games. It's a valid argument to say that any DE in an Eldar unit makes it a non-Eldar or 'Dual' unit.

Most places I've been wont allow it. Joining the squad doesn't make Sathonyx, or any DE ally, an Eldar, it only makes him a member of the unit. The FAQ is very clear on that point. Not very many players are going to disallow an Eldar player from using any psychic powers on the squad simply because of any DE in the squad. They don't suddenly cease to be Eldar when both Fortune/Guide are cast, then become Eldar to benefit simply because they are in a squad. MOST reasonable people will play it that since the power targets an Eldar unit, then only the Eldar in the unit benefit. Using a loophole to get around a rule is one thing, using a loophole to get around an FAQ is stretching it.

The power target units, not models. The effect mentions the unit only, not the models. You are only allowed to cast them on Eldar units. ICs joining it do not change the fact that it is an Eldar unit.

Quote:
"The unit re-rolls any failed saves it makes... "

Once an IC joins it it is part of the unit 'for all rules purposes'.

The original FAQ said something along the lines of 'Do Dark Eldar count as 'Eldar' for being a target of Fortune/Guide?' Im not sure on the exact wording, but the current one has removed the target portion as part of the question. They flat out don't count as Eldar.

This slight change means that it's valid to say that when checking for an Eldar unit, any DE characters in an Eldar unit cease to be an Eldar unit by the RAW. An Eldar unit literally being interpreted as a 'unit comprised of Eldar Models'. When the power is cast you need to find an Eldar unit, DE never count as Eldar, whether joined to a unit or not. Nothing on p.39 changes that.

A middle ground solution is that since the presence of a DE character doesn't strictly prevent the power from being cast on the unit, then you can cast Fortune/Guide on the Eldar, but only Eldar in the unit benefit. This isn't supported by any FAQ, it's just a solution that satisfies all the rules involved.

Hiding behind the p.39 rule saying that all IC's are members of the unit, and can benefit from Fortune/Guide is the common play method in most places, but it is not the definite rule. I just advised that if he's going to build a list around it, then be sure to check with whoever first. Been my experience that while it is the most common play method, it's changing to go the other way.



Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Shandara wrote:

"The unit re-rolls any failed saves it makes... "
Once an IC joins it it is part of the unit 'for all rules purposes'.

Maybe Im not clear, the issue isn't that part of the rule. The issue is being targeted in the first place because of the presence of DE, which is something the OP mentioned. I've seen the same thing pop up as well. Those powers target Eldar units.

The presence of an DE _model_ does not change the unit, though.

There's nothing in the rules that says it does, it doesn't become a Dark Eldar unit, nor some hybrid. There's no rules about that.

So logically it _must_ stay an Eldar unit.

As above. The current FAQ does not alter that joining a DE IC to an Eldar unit has no effect on the unit being an Eldar unit - it is still an Eldar unit

No rules anywhere support Akars notion of a "dual" unit., None. The IC rules even explicitly state that "for all" rules purposes they are a normal member of the unit - namely an Eldar unit.

Indeed, a BA unit with a sang priest and attached BB IC would still be a BA unit for purposes of Blood Chalice. The same with a Guard army with a SW IC and orders. Having an IC has never changed the base unit.


Funny note, the FW Corsair army list references its own units by saying "an eldar unit with" so therefore Corsairs are eldar too. Corsair Princes can get shadowfields too.

 Shandara wrote:
The presence of an DE model does not change the unit, though.

There is no longer any rule or FAQ to support this anymore. The removal of any reference to 'Targeting' from the original FAQ is what challenges this interpretation. An exception when casting Fortune/Guide since there is a restriction that only Eldar units can be the target. It's an interpretation of what an Eldar unit is as opposed to a unit containing Eldar. Under the old FAQ, it was clear that DE units couldn't be targeted by Fortune/Guide, and so there was no issue with any DE in Eldar units benefiting from these powers while attached to an Eldar unit.

Now that any reference to 'targeting' is gone, players have assumed that the rule that they remain an Eldar unit has stuck. Dark Eldar simply do not count as Eldar, ever, no matter where they are, when Fortune/Guide are cast. So they're relying on an interpretation that since IC's in a unit count as members of the unit for all rules purposes, that it would also make him an Eldar. This is in direct violation of the FAQ, and nothing on p.39 changes anything making them Eldar.

Targeting an Eldar unit with a DE character present is ONE interpretation and one based on an FAQ that has since been altered. Since it has been altered, it's no longer the ONLY interpretation.

Im not here to convince anyone one way or the other, cause I simply don't care. Jantje mentioned the 'tricky part' and how the presence of a DE could cease to make the unit an Eldar unit, which I support. Mannahnim answered the question correctly by stating that is is commonly played one way, and I support that. Regardless of his personal view on it, he answered it how it should be answered and didn't try to convince someone that his rule is THE rule, like so many posters here attempt to do. He answered with the most common interpretation. However, it's now incorrect to say that p.39 is clear, when it's not. There is no longer any 'logic' that leads to that conclusion.

I only mentioned it so that Jantje doesn't walk in anywhere, and assume that it's automatically the rule when it's not. He should be prepared in both cases as not everyone agrees.

"Dark Eldar simply do not count as Eldar, ever, no matter where they are."

Except, for all rules purposes, when they are an IC joined to a unit. That is an actual rule, something conspicuosly absent in your interpretation

People are, of course, entitled to disagree - however their disagreement isnt based on any actual rules.

If your opponent starts bitching, cast fortune on an eldar unit and move the DE character into the unit. That is perfectly legal since the unit rerolls the save, not just eldar. After that its into the haze, but because it works in such similar situations and previous rules and FAQs have all favored that interpretation (along with major TOs), its a pretty strong consensus that it should be allowed. However, your opponent is always entailed to disagree. In the same light I can disagree with gravity because there is a non-zero probability that it will cease working.