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I was looking through the SM codex and reading a few books- and I'm interested about something. They say that bolter rounds are mass-reactive (explosive). So in accordance to what I know- If I was shot in the chest by a bolter, would I blow up? Or, is there going to be a huge hole in my chest?

Playing the Warhammer40k: Space Marine Game shows that bolter rounds are not that explosive......But in 'Wrath of Iron' they describe the victims as blowing up like 'walking grenades'-or is that an exaggeration?

Your views on this?

 Phosis T'Kar Jr wrote:
I was looking through the SM codex and reading a few books- and I'm interested about something. They say that bolter rounds are mass-reactive (explosive). So in accordance to what I know- If I was shot in the chest by a bolter, would I blow up? Or, is there going to be a huge hole in my chest?

Playing the Warhammer40k: Space Marine Game shows that bolter rounds are not that explosive......But in 'Wrath of Iron' they describe the victims as blowing up like 'walking grenades'-or is that an exaggeration?

Your views on this?

Well, bolter rounds only detonate after a certain amount of time, on impact, so with a perfect shot on a weak body, then yes they should be able to detonate quite nicely. Examples of soft targets would include humans, grots, and small 'nids.

It is also possible for a bolter round to pass straight through a target, or fail to detonate, or even actually detonate but not manage to deal much damage.
The detonation could easily be absorbed by orkoid flesh.

Ork flesh is ridiculous tough and dense, to be sure

Also it depends on who is writing the book/making the game.

You have everything from a SMG with a little more kick to grenades that embed into your stomach cavity then turn you into red mist.

Another important note is that while bolter clips only hold about 10 shots of the monstrously huge ammo, they never run out unless the plot requires it

(SM game aside, though i think the pistol has infinite shots still)

They have a sensor that makes them detonate when they have penetrated a target(Mass-reactive: they react to mass)

If you, a human(or an Ork, eldar, nid) is hit by a bolter round it will explode.



With the size of a bolt round, your chest will probably cease to exist. Maybe a few strips of flesh and bone will remain to bind your limbs together. Your head, if hit, would disappear in red mist.

If its a limb, the bolt might go all the way through before it could explode, but your arm/leg would be amputated. We are talking about .75 caliber rounds.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Ascalam wrote:
Ork flesh is ridiculous tough and dense, to be sure

Also it depends on who is writing the book/making the game.

You have everything from a SMG with a little more kick to grenades that embed into your stomach cavity then turn you into red mist.

Another important note is that while bolter clips only hold about 10 shots of the monstrously huge ammo, they never run out unless the plot requires it

(SM game aside, though i think the pistol has infinite shots still)

30 rounds, and its called a magazine. not a clip.

You would probably have a very large (double-fist-size) hole in your chest. Your entire torso would not vanish into a red mist... explosive rounds are more like "shattering" than mushroom-clouds. You would, almost invariably, be dead in either case, as it has destroyed your heart and both lungs.

yeah fluff wise, bolters vary a lot in str


its odd that some fluff puts the rounds as rocket propelled,

while most puts them more like conventional catridges using ignited propellants

think solid slug fom a shot gun,

now think solid shot from a shot gun that explodes,

ive seen conventional bullets make holds almost 1' in diamerter,

i see bolters as worse then that

Actually almost all the fluff puts them as "rocket-propelled". They are shot out of the gun, then a small rocket motor takes over.

easysauce wrote:
yeah fluff wise, bolters vary a lot in str


its odd that some fluff puts the rounds as rocket propelled,

while most puts them more like conventional catridges using ignited propellants

think solid slug fom a shot gun,

now think solid shot from a shot gun that explodes,

ive seen conventional bullets make holds almost 1' in diamerter,

i see bolters as worse then that

They are both rocket propelled AND conventionally launched.


They have the explosive initial stage of a bullet and the rocket stage of a missile.

 Grey Templar wrote:
They have a sensor that makes them detonate when they have penetrated a target(Mass-reactive: they react to mass)

If you, a human(or an Ork, eldar, nid) is hit by a bolter round it will explode.



With the size of a bolt round, your chest will probably cease to exist. Maybe a few strips of flesh and bone will remain to bind your limbs together. Your head, if hit, would disappear in red mist.

If its a limb, the bolt might go all the way through before it could explode, but your arm/leg would be amputated. We are talking about .75 caliber rounds.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Ascalam wrote:
Ork flesh is ridiculous tough and dense, to be sure

Also it depends on who is writing the book/making the game.

You have everything from a SMG with a little more kick to grenades that embed into your stomach cavity then turn you into red mist.

Another important note is that while bolter clips only hold about 10 shots of the monstrously huge ammo, they never run out unless the plot requires it

(SM game aside, though i think the pistol has infinite shots still)

30 rounds, and its called a magazine. not a clip.

Whatever. The bolt pistol has a clip, the bolter has a mag. Either way it's a holy box o' bolts.


Doesn't really matter, as the point still stands. Doubly so when you look at the size of the mag on the model and the size of the shell. No earthly way 30 rounds is going to fit in there, barring the same STC that allows 10 fully kitted marines to ride around in a rhino without issues.

30 rounds from a semi-auto gun doesn't last long even with fire discipline, the mags are huge, but somehow Marines carry enough around to massacre thousands of enemies without resupply in some books/fluff.

.75 caliber isn't that big. You could easily fit 30 rounds into the Mags a bolter would carry.

Could be just GW overmodelling then.

If they are only .75 then yes they would fit, but the bolts on the SM's i have in my hand are in no way .75's

Could just be that sculpt i guess.

Yes, the sculpts are out of proportion.

Bolters are .75 caliber and have been for the longest time.

Fair enough.

I've not been a Marine player for a long time (just getting back to it with DA) and i have some BT somewhere.

keep in mind on the scuplts, the part you see could just be a flash hider/compensator, and not indicative on the arrels inside diameter.



also all my bolters lack any hole at the end , so i assume they explode when fired

/jk

Sooooo...on that Stalker round how DO you solidify mercury? Freeze it? That's only way I know of. Brrr!

A 12 gauge shotgun shell is about .75 cal for some perspective. Most combat shotguns with a magazine have a limit of 10 rounds, so 30 is a stretch. I guess you could have telescopic rounds saving some space. Anybody remember the gyro-jet pistol or carbine? Also a rocket propelled round.

As to the OP, any HE small caliber round is designed to explode either on impact or soon after causing massive damage to soft tissue but within a small radius. Gross trauma is one thing but exploding personnel is another.

 Ascalam wrote:

Whatever. The bolt pistol has a clip, the bolter has a mag. Either way it's a holy box o' bolts.

No. 9/10 bolt pistols have mags. Some pistols, and even boltguns, are modelled with clips instead, particularly the Chaos Marine sprues, but that's it. 9/10 it's mags.

Doesn't really matter, as the point still stands. Doubly so when you look at the size of the mag on the model and the size of the shell. No earthly way 30 rounds is going to fit in there, barring the same STC that allows 10 fully kitted marines to ride around in a rhino without issues.

Again, not really. Everybody knows Citadel 28mm are heroic scale. One look and it's quite obvious that weapons and hands are vastly oversized for the heads and bodies that wield them. The bolters are no different.

30 rounds from a semi-auto gun doesn't last long even with fire discipline, the mags are huge, but somehow Marines carry enough around to massacre thousands of enemies without resupply in some books/fluff.

30 and 20 round mags are standard for todays assault weapons, ones that can fire semi and full-auto. 30 round sickle and 40-50 round box/drum mags are easily within the realms of believability when it comes to this space fantasy...

 Ascalam wrote:


Whatever. The bolt pistol has a clip, the bolter has a mag. Either way it's a holy box o' bolts.


Doesn't really matter, as the point still stands. Doubly so when you look at the size of the mag on the model and the size of the shell. No earthly way 30 rounds is going to fit in there, barring the same STC that allows 10 fully kitted marines to ride around in a rhino without issues.

30 rounds from a semi-auto gun doesn't last long even with fire discipline, the mags are huge, but somehow Marines carry enough around to massacre thousands of enemies without resupply in some books/fluff.

The models and the table top game are abstractions, you can't rely on them for fluff. A model rhino can't fit 10 model marines. A rhino in the fluff can of course fit 10 marines, we've seen this displayed numerous times. Likewise a bolter's magazines can fit 30 rounds (or more or less depending on the magazine type).

Marines will carry spare ammo around. Either in pouches or within the backpack. Not to mention i'm sure rhino's, razorbacks, land raiders and thunderhawks can carry ammo in them. A Space Marine doesn't just continuously fight while on campaign, he can be resupplied.

 amanita wrote:
Sooooo...on that Stalker round how DO you solidify mercury? Freeze it? That's only way I know of. Brrr!

A 12 gauge shotgun shell is about .75 cal for some perspective. Most combat shotguns with a magazine have a limit of 10 rounds, so 30 is a stretch. I guess you could have telescopic rounds saving some space. Anybody remember the gyro-jet pistol or carbine? Also a rocket propelled round.

As to the OP, any HE small caliber round is designed to explode either on impact or soon after causing massive damage to soft tissue but within a small radius. Gross trauma is one thing but exploding personnel is another.

The Mercury might not be in its elemental form, it could be in a compound of some sort and calling it Mercury is just slang.


Like how people will say "you need to cut down on the sodium in your diet"

I would hope NOBODY is eating elemental sodium. Everybody means Sodium Chloride, table salt. Both substances in their elemental form are bad for your body. Together, they are a necessity.

A bolter thread! One of my favourite topics...
..."unfortunately", Ribon Fox already posted the image I tend to throw around in such occasions, so now I have almost nothing more to add.

rems01 wrote:The models and the table top game are abstractions, you can't rely on them for fluff. A model rhino can't fit 10 model marines.

I've heard stories on dakka about someone modeling the inside of a Rhino and managing to squeeze 10 Marines inside ...
Never seen any pics myself, tho, so maybe it's just an urban legend.

As for the fluff, unfortunately that we cannot rely upon as well, given the lack of consistency between the various sources - including lots and lots of conflicting sources about bolt weaponry!
However, we can investigate and compare and pick what makes the most sense, at least as per our individual preferences.

rems01 wrote:Marines will carry spare ammo around. Either in pouches or within the backpack. Not to mention i'm sure rhino's, razorbacks, land raiders and thunderhawks can carry ammo in them. A Space Marine doesn't just continuously fight while on campaign, he can be resupplied.

Most importantly, Marines aren't intended to fight for prolonged periods anyways. That's what the Guard is for. Marines go in, blow holes into someone's defenses, maybe kill some important general, and move out again.
They're highly mobile shock troops, not line infantry.

Grey Templar wrote:They have the explosive initial stage of a bullet and the rocket stage of a missile.

Precisely.

"The bolt contains an armour piercing tip, an explosive and a mass-reactive detonator. It is shot from the barrel under low velocity, its own propellant igniting once the missile is clear of the barrel. The explosive detonates only when it has pierced armour. Any sudden increase in local mass activates the explosive and blows the target apart from the inside."
- 2E Wargear Book

 Lynata wrote:


As for the fluff, unfortunately that we cannot rely upon as well, given the lack of consistency between the various sources - including lots and lots of conflicting sources about bolt weaponry!
However, we can investigate and compare and pick what makes the most sense, at least as per our individual preferences.

Actually bolter fluff is remarkably consistent. Every description and explanation of the bolter across every rulebook and codex i've seen has been nearly identical. They all state the 'bolts' are caseless, self propelled, mass reactive ammunition.

I agree regarding your point about the tactical deployment of Space Marines, they are no longer line forces but shock troopers, a role they're incredibly well suited too. I mean imagine it, a 2 metere tall armoured figure suddenly descends from the very sky, who is loud and terrifying, his weapons kill your friends in an horrific manner and his armour is immune to your return fire. He is faster, stronger and tougher than you, he is relentless.

They're the ultimate shock troopers.

 Lynata wrote:
I've heard stories on dakka about someone modeling the inside of a Rhino and managing to squeeze 10 Marines inside ...
Never seen any pics myself, tho, so maybe it's just an urban legend.

It is true! I've seen it. It was made during 2e, I think; ten old marines in the old Rhino! I have tried to find that pic several times since, but to no avail.

 rems01 wrote:

 Lynata wrote:


As for the fluff, unfortunately that we cannot rely upon as well, given the lack of consistency between the various sources - including lots and lots of conflicting sources about bolt weaponry!
However, we can investigate and compare and pick what makes the most sense, at least as per our individual preferences.

Actually bolter fluff is remarkably consistent. Every description and explanation of the bolter across every rulebook and codex i've seen has been nearly identical. They all state the 'bolts' are caseless, self propelled, mass reactive ammunition.

I agree regarding your point about the tactical deployment of Space Marines, they are no longer line forces but shock troopers, a role they're incredibly well suited too. I mean imagine it, a 2 metere tall armoured figure suddenly descends from the very sky, who is loud and terrifying, his weapons kill your friends in an horrific manner and his armour is immune to your return fire. He is faster, stronger and tougher than you, he is relentless.

They're the ultimate shock troopers.

Lose the caseless part and you are correct. Bolters havn't been caseless since RT.

rems01 wrote:Actually bolter fluff is remarkably consistent. Every description and explanation of the bolter across every rulebook and codex i've seen has been nearly identical. They all state the 'bolts' are caseless, self propelled, mass reactive ammunition.

Oh, that was referring more to detail effects such as low recoil / heavy recoil, or potential differences between Astartes and other models. It's mostly an issue in various licensed products such as BL novels or FFG's RPGs, though damage effects may differ between short stories in GW Codex fluff as well. All of that can make it rather difficult to develop a somewhat consistent image of "what a bolter can do", so to say. Someone already mentioned the Space Marine computer game as yet another example (although I actually have to say that its depiction of bolter impacts is what I'd personally consider "appropriate").

That's the main reason of why I like not to dismiss the TT rules outright. At least those are consistent and you've got some hard numbers to work with, in spite of the abstraction (which, come to think of it, is the same in stories and legends, given the "epic" factor with which they're told).

Yay. Another "gun" argumen- er, discussion

I've read somewhere that bolt-weapons are smooth-bore, if that is the case, I assume that the bolt itself spins upon its own jet thrust, and thus stabilising itself in flight, like a rifled-slug from a shotgun, though minus the jets .
Otherwise, unless a bolt is fin-stabilised - and we know it's not, you wouldn't be able to hit anything with them as without rifling in its barrel the bolt would tumble and have naff-all accuracy.

On thing that's bugged me is that bolt pistols have their magazine housing mounted almost immediately behind their short barrels. This lends itself to the idea that the bolt spins and stabilises itself in flight, as it wouldn't need a long barrel to do that for it, of course a longer barrel is still more accurate then a short one.

This also got me thinking, as the magazine of a bolt pistol is basically underneath the barrel, does the barrel actually work as a chamber? I mean, a breech-bolt would strip a round from the mag and chamber it ahead of the magazine but the only place I can see the round being chambered into is directly into the barrel itself. I dunno, maybe the bolt pistol fires from an open bolt configuration.

Also, a smooth bore barrel would lend itself to reducing recoil. Of course, have a firearm that fires a rocket would still have some ooompth to it, though not as much as if that rocket had to forced its way down a rifled barrel.

 Grey Templar wrote:


Lose the caseless part and you are correct. Bolters havn't been caseless since RT.

Nope, they are still caseless to this day. At least in the written technical way.

In the artwork and dramatic depictions of events, cases are used because they look cool, even though bolt ammo is actually caseless (actual Jes explanation).

Tower75 wrote:I've read somewhere that bolt-weapons are smooth-bore, if that is the case, I assume that the bolt itself spins upon its own jet thrust, and thus stabilising itself in flight, like a rifled-slug from a shotgun, though minus the jets .
Otherwise, unless a bolt is fin-stabilised - and we know it's not, you wouldn't be able to hit anything with them as without rifling in its barrel the bolt would tumble and have naff-all accuracy.

Well, the image above does say "rifled barrel", although I actually believe I've read "smoothbore" in some other source as well some time ago. Don't ask me where, though! Might just be a question of pattern - after all, crude versions of the boltgun are produced even in the lower hives!

That being said, the 2E Wargear book did say that bolter accuracy sucks on long range, which (in combination with their characteristic sound and devastating damage) is why they're perfect for up-close shock assaults.

Tower75 wrote:This also got me thinking, as the magazine of a bolt pistol is basically underneath the barrel, does the barrel actually work as a chamber? I mean, a breech-bolt would strip a round from the mag and chamber it ahead of the magazine but the only place I can see the round being chambered into is directly into the barrel itself. I dunno, maybe the bolt pistol fires from an open bolt configuration.

I think the barrel may just be really short. It needs to be a chamber to actually take the round as well as eject the casing, doesn't it? From what I've read, both chamber and barrel pretty much merge into one another, anyways. Isn't it just a matter of definition?

Tower75 wrote:Also, a smooth bore barrel would lend itself to reducing recoil. Of course, have a firearm that fires a rocket would still have some ooompth to it, though not as much as if that rocket had to forced its way down a rifled barrel.

If the bolt would be fired like a rocket, recoil should be fairly low (see the RL gyrojets) - however, with their gun-like first stage ignition, boltguns are really more like oversized shotguns whose slugs transform into a missile after leaving the barrel.

Speaking of shotguns, I actually did some very nerdy calculations back then, trying to calculate a comparison to real life weapons based on fluff details such as the 1st stage "low velocity" as well and subsonic Stalker ammunition as well as caliber, and although I did not have all varibales (such as projectile or gun weight) I came to the conclusion that it'd presumably be less "oompth" than some of the bigger shotguns in existence today. Gun weight would be important in that it counters the effect of recoil, and unlike recoil itself, weight is mentioned to be one of the drawbacks of bolt weapons in a whole lot of GW books. And then we know little about possible recoil compensating technology, such as the feather system used in the AA12 (my favourite "IRL almost-boltgun" ). How exactly would the "blast compensator" noted on the cross-section would affect performance, for example? The principle could be similar to that of the recoilless rifle in that it redirects the gas in order to minimise the backlash.

DarknessEternal wrote:Nope, they are still caseless to this day. At least in the written technical way.
In the artwork and dramatic depictions of events, cases are used because they look cool, even though bolt ammo is actually caseless (actual Jes explanation).

I'm fairly sure that was retconned long ago, at least as far as GW's own material is concerned. Look at the depiction of bolt rounds in the cross-section and note the thicker end of the projectile - classic trait of an outer shell's base, I think. If it would stay with the main part of the bolt, 99% of the round's surface wouldn't touch the barrel when it's shot, which I imagine would severely affect performance. Also, the various miniatures that portray bolt rounds on a belt-fed weapon.

Do you remember where/when exactly that comment was made?

I always figured the "mass reactive" sensors dont pick up on light targets, ie humans. They just blow a giant hole in you. When the bolt hits armor or thick skin (orks) they will detonate a split second after entry. A basic Ork boy has extremely thick skin and a constitution that ignores pain and injury, so the representation in Space Marine is pretty good. 3-4 hits, you can see each explode a second after impact, but the Ork is simply too tough and stupid to die.

 rems01 wrote:

 Lynata wrote:


As for the fluff, unfortunately that we cannot rely upon as well, given the lack of consistency between the various sources - including lots and lots of conflicting sources about bolt weaponry!
However, we can investigate and compare and pick what makes the most sense, at least as per our individual preferences.

Actually bolter fluff is remarkably consistent. Every description and explanation of the bolter across every rulebook and codex i've seen has been nearly identical. They all state the 'bolts' are caseless, self propelled, mass reactive ammunition.

Except bolts aren't caseless. There's lots of art of brass shells flying out of a bolt-gun cutting loose on full-auto (or the Marine squeezing the trigger *really* fast), as well as common citizens carrying spent shells as good-luck charms. And then there is the belt-fed Heavy Bolters, which will require a case to fit into the belt-linkages so they can be pulled through the feed mechanism. Can't do that with a caseless round.

 Psienesis wrote:

 rems01 wrote:

 Lynata wrote:


As for the fluff, unfortunately that we cannot rely upon as well, given the lack of consistency between the various sources - including lots and lots of conflicting sources about bolt weaponry!
However, we can investigate and compare and pick what makes the most sense, at least as per our individual preferences.

Actually bolter fluff is remarkably consistent. Every description and explanation of the bolter across every rulebook and codex i've seen has been nearly identical. They all state the 'bolts' are caseless, self propelled, mass reactive ammunition.

Except bolts aren't caseless. There's lots of art of brass shells flying out of a bolt-gun cutting loose on full-auto (or the Marine squeezing the trigger *really* fast), as well as common citizens carrying spent shells as good-luck charms. And then there is the belt-fed Heavy Bolters, which will require a case to fit into the belt-linkages so they can be pulled through the feed mechanism. Can't do that with a caseless round.

Add to that the fact that many chaos bolters have chain-fed ammo, and that all boltguns have the thingy to expel cartriges..