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In a very weird sense, 40K is the most realistic sci fi game I know of, as it actually takes the holographic universe theory seriously.

Example: Gork and Mork exist because the orks think they do. Take that a little further: Slaanesh exists because the Eldar have one massive party and sort of think him into existence. Similar: the other Chaos Gods and their associated lesser spirits arose out of the dark side of humanity.

So, are there really any Gods or Daemons, or are they just reflections of the dark sides of ourselves? If humanity could ditch the Imperium and all its BS, and just start singing kumbayah, would the gods and daemons just cease to exist?

As an aside, I just read the Dark Future fluff seriously for the first time, and it seems that one of the big issues in that game is that the laws of physics are breaking down, and as soon as some scientist tries to bring this to the attention of the public, he disappears.

Are the two games related in this concept? Have the authors, from Priestley forward, ever written anything about what they were trying to convey, beyond "...in the grim darkness of a really silly far future..."?

40K is a Sci-Fi game. That part is true. It has its own laws of of physics, material composition, and power of belief.

Is it realistic? It will take another 38,000 years to find out.

IMO the most realistic (since one can only judge what is real by looking at what actually exists and how things currently work) Sci-Fi are the ones that take place in the near future, and by that I mean no more than 50 years. Look at the technological advancement in the last 100 years. Its pretty much impossible to even speculate where technology will be in 300 years, let alone 30,000.

Far future stuff is no different than High Fantasy when it comes to what is real vs what may be.

This is possibly the most brilliant thread I have ever spent time reading, I must know more.

 Zinderneuf wrote:

So, are there really any Gods or Daemons, or are they just reflections of the dark sides of ourselves? If humanity could ditch the Imperium and all its BS, and just start singing kumbayah, would the gods and daemons just cease to exist.

I'm afraid that's what deepest is intended. I don't like it and in my own parallel world of 40k it's completely different, as I think that it's boring if they actually were just fighting their own dark minds. I'd rather want Chaos Gods and Daemons to be completely independent creatures which are unlimited evil and which feasts on terror instead of being created by terror.

I love 40k too because of it's reality. It is indeed for many things more realistic and almost everything can be scientifically explained.

As for Chaos Gods.... It is not that easy, for Mankind to kill Chaos Gods they must become like robots - to have no emotions at all. Only then they will be able to kill them. And Imperium is not guilty for that, Chaos Gods existed long before even Mankind was here, they only became sentient around medieval age.

And to me Chaos Gods are not gods at all, just 3 very powerful Warp entities. And they are powerful because they drew their power from emotions of the entire spices and that is something. Emperor literally rose to their level by doing similar thing - letting entire spices to pray to him and thus gave him energy in the Warp just like Chaos Gods receive energy from emotions and prayers too.

What a fascinating theory, the Ordos Hydra will see you now...

"The creatures of the Warp are just "aliens" too, but they are not life forms as we understand the term. They are not organic. They are extra-dimensional, and they influence our reality in ways that seem sorcerous to us. Supernatural, if you will. So let's use all those lost words for them... daemons, spirits, possessors, changelings. All we need to remember is that there are no gods out there, in the darkness, no great daemons and ministers of evil. There is no fundamental, immutable evil in the cosmos. It is too large and sterile for such melodrama. There are simply inhuman things that oppose us, things we were created to battle and destroy."
- Horus Lupercal

"The difference between gods and daemons largely depends upon where one is standing at the time."
- Lorgar

"Kill! Maim! Burn! Kill! Maim! Burn! Kill! Maim! Burn! Kill! Maim! Burn! Kill! Maim! Burn! Kill! Maim! Burn! Kill! Maim! Burn!"
- Kharn the Betrayer


Ironically, and unsurprisingly, the Lorgar and Horus quotes were before their fall to Chaos. The Kharn one was for levity.

Well...most realistic representation of Chaos...check Event Horizon. At least the doctor didn't mention any particular god, he's probably for chaos undivided.

For a while now when thinking about Chaos fluff I've favoured the theory that Warp creatures are just another kind of alien, but their nature is so alien the Imperium considers it quicker just to label them as daemons. Fluff surrounding the Imperial groups who are really tooled up to fight Warp entities, such as Inquisitors, shows that they even have weaknesses. If you take BL as canon it seems it could be possible to kill them for good rather than "banishing" them (it's implied that Eisenhorn properly destroyed a daemon outright, in such a way that it could never re-form itself...but that's just his theory). The description "extradimensional energy creature that feeds on emotions" could apply to them, but it equally sounds like something from Star Trek.

This page claims that there was a time that the Warp was not such a hostile environment, suggesting that the behaviour of these creatures is affected by whatever the main galactic "mood" is...so in a setting where "there is only war" that's a bad thing.

 Brother Captain Alexander wrote:
As for Chaos Gods.... It is not that easy, for Mankind to kill Chaos Gods they must become like robots - to have no emotions at all. Only then they will be able to kill them.

I don't know. If they all became Zen masters or mystics, not emotionless but with emotions completely mastered, it seems that this would be the end of Chaos. The fluff I've read seemed to say that the warp used to be a really nice, greenie-weenie energy paradise, until makind's negative emotions started screwing it up.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Zinderneuf wrote:

 Brother Captain Alexander wrote:
As for Chaos Gods.... It is not that easy, for Mankind to kill Chaos Gods they must become like robots - to have no emotions at all. Only then they will be able to kill them.

I don't know. If they all became Zen masters or mystics, not emotionless but with emotions completely mastered, it seems that this would be the end of Chaos. The fluff I've read seemed to say that the warp used to be a really nice, greenie-weenie energy paradise, until makind's negative emotions started screwing it up.

Or, to put it another way: What Fezman said.

 Zinderneuf wrote:

 Brother Captain Alexander wrote:
As for Chaos Gods.... It is not that easy, for Mankind to kill Chaos Gods they must become like robots - to have no emotions at all. Only then they will be able to kill them.

I don't know. If they all became Zen masters or mystics, not emotionless but with emotions completely mastered, it seems that this would be the end of Chaos. The fluff I've read seemed to say that the warp used to be a really nice, greenie-weenie energy paradise, until makind's negative emotions started screwing it up.

The warp has become screwed up due to all races in the galaxy making it screwed up. Humans are the Chaos gods latest and greatest source of power but we are not the only ones. Observe the Eldar and their creation of Slaanesh and how they probably fueled Khorne with all the blood they spilled during their decadent period.

So with the Warp only being a blur of emotions, Orks just like to fight, Tyranid want to devour... Does that lead to only Necrons and Dark Eldar being the only factions which have the possibility to being evil to the bones in an independent way? (Damn I have trouble expressing myself today, sorry)

I think the DE are the most pathetic of the lot, as they know that they are only holding out to fall to the inevitable.

It is also said by Horus that and they inevitably will, Chaos will stand victor... (though tau might disagree since they are somehow immune) all of reality will collapse and just start all over again... That is what the emperor told him,.. I also believe an alien cult told this to Alpharius/Omegon...

Also as someone said it is impossible to see where technology will be within 300 years and such,.. though i believe that humanity will almost wipe itself out, gets itself back up and eventualy will colonise the stars,... if aliens dont wipe us out first

As Fezma said,.. the warp used to be quite stable and peacefull,.. untill humanity got so screwed up,.. this also used to be the case with the eldar.. though i believe when slaanesh was created humans were already out of their caves.... There were a group of Shamans who together, went into the warp and saw what humanity would do to itself.. all merged together and became the emperor as some sort of last ditch effort... ( Yes this could possibly mean the emperor could have been iconic figures like Jezus,, while on the other hand there are statements the emperer kept himself to the shadows for a couple of thousands of years to study human kind before acting)

 Waaghboss Grobnub wrote:

As Fezma said,.. the warp used to be quite stable and peacefull,.. untill Necrons and the C'Tan got so screwed up,..

Fixed that for ya

ALL gods exist and are real according to the beliefs of their followers.

Actual concrete reality real? Not in our universe.

Multiverse theory would posit that somewhere out there, IS a universe where these (and other, equally nebulous) beings exist and are nomming on their worshippers.

 Waaghboss Grobnub wrote:
It is also said by Horus that and they inevitably will, Chaos will stand victor... (though tau might disagree since they are somehow immune) all of reality will collapse and just start all over again... That is what the emperor told him,.. I also believe an alien cult told this to Alpharius/Omegon...

Where do you people get your fluff?! Do you listen to Tau nonsense for these ideas? Horus was fooled by the Chaos gods into thinking that the Emp wanted the Imperium to turn into an theocracy and gak and that the horrible future of the 41st millenia Imperium was something the Emp desired and wanted to bring about when in truth by rebelling, Horus brought about the future he turned on the Emp against.

Tau are not immune. They are not Pariahs or blanks who are immune to Warp powers! They simply have so low a warp presence that daemons focus on something far more interesting

As Fezma said,.. the warp used to be quite stable and peacefull,.. untill humanity got so screwed up,.. this also used to be the case with the eldar.. though i believe when slaanesh was created humans were already out of their caves.... There were a group of Shamans who together, went into the warp and saw what humanity would do to itself.. all merged together and became the emperor as some sort of last ditch effort... ( Yes this could possibly mean the emperor could have been iconic figures like Jezus,, while on the other hand there are statements the emperer kept himself to the shadows for a couple of thousands of years to study human kind before acting)

WRONG.

From the 6th edition Codex daemons pg 6:

It says mortals and races. Not humans specifically.

Also the Necrons and C'tan are at fault.

Eldar created Slaanesh. Nobody else. Their(Eldar) souls belong to Slaanesh.

Corporal_Reznov wrote:

 Waaghboss Grobnub wrote:
It is also said by Horus that and they inevitably will, Chaos will stand victor... (though tau might disagree since they are somehow immune) all of reality will collapse and just start all over again... That is what the emperor told him,.. I also believe an alien cult told this to Alpharius/Omegon...

Where do you people get your fluff?! Do you listen to Tau nonsense for these ideas? Horus was fooled by the Chaos gods into thinking that the Emp wanted the Imperium to turn into an theocracy and gak and that the horrible future of the 41st millenia Imperium was something the Emp desired and wanted to bring about when in truth by rebelling, Horus brought about the future he turned on the Emp against.

Tau are not immune. They are not Pariahs or blanks who are immune to Warp powers! They simply have so low a warp presence that daemons focus on something far more interesting

As Fezma said,.. the warp used to be quite stable and peacefull,.. untill humanity got so screwed up,.. this also used to be the case with the eldar.. though i believe when slaanesh was created humans were already out of their caves.... There were a group of Shamans who together, went into the warp and saw what humanity would do to itself.. all merged together and became the emperor as some sort of last ditch effort... ( Yes this could possibly mean the emperor could have been iconic figures like Jezus,, while on the other hand there are statements the emperer kept himself to the shadows for a couple of thousands of years to study human kind before acting)

WRONG.

From the 6th edition Codex daemons pg 6:

It says mortals and races. Not humans specifically.

Also the Necrons and C'tan are at fault.

Eldar created Slaanesh. Nobody else. Their(Eldar) souls belong to Slaanesh.

I never go so far as to say anyone is wrong where 40K fluff is concerned. I think it is more fun to look at it like this: The Imperium is so full of (lies within lies, conspiracies within conspiracies, inquisitors trying to kill each other over the 'truth', etc.) that no one really knows what is real. Thus, where fluff is contradictory, I just assume it is one inquisitor's viewpoint versus another's. Just because the fluff is from a newer edition doesn't make it more true, it probably just represents a newer viewpoint, or one that is more popular now.

I'll jump on the bandwagon and say that the Deamons are created by and feed of our fear, hate, love, lust, compassion (and all those other lovely, living emotions that make life interesting). As to a possible solution to the problem?
I have always (ever since reading the rulebook and deamons codex for the first time) thought that the whole "we life of you like really bad parasites" seems like a rather silly tactic...
Think about it, if the deamons do get what they want (turn the entire universe into a battle/pestilent blob/crazy maze/orgy) and make every living soul go bat-s*** insane, then what?
You food will die, and then you will "die" (or cease to be exist) and you will have screwed the universe over forever (or at least this galaxy, could be more...)

For me, this poses a logical problem. I don't see Tzeench or Nurgle to happy with an empty scene and no funny puppets to manipulate and/or give funny plagues... Khorne, well, he's just nutters, and Slaanesh don't seem to think too much about anything more than Eldar-butt... But that still leaves two of the "greates of the pantheon" not voting for "lets screw everything over".

Just my two (very long) cents... Aaand, just my opinion

Corporal_Reznov wrote:

 Waaghboss Grobnub wrote:
It is also said by Horus that and they inevitably will, Chaos will stand victor... (though tau might disagree since they are somehow immune) all of reality will collapse and just start all over again... That is what the emperor told him,.. I also believe an alien cult told this to Alpharius/Omegon...

Where do you people get your fluff?! Do you listen to Tau nonsense for these ideas? Horus was fooled by the Chaos gods into thinking that the Emp wanted the Imperium to turn into an theocracy and gak and that the horrible future of the 41st millenia Imperium was something the Emp desired and wanted to bring about when in truth by rebelling, Horus brought about the future he turned on the Emp against.

Tau are not immune. They are not Pariahs or blanks who are immune to Warp powers! They simply have so low a warp presence that daemons focus on something far more interesting

As Fezma said,.. the warp used to be quite stable and peacefull,.. untill humanity got so screwed up,.. this also used to be the case with the eldar.. though i believe when slaanesh was created humans were already out of their caves.... There were a group of Shamans who together, went into the warp and saw what humanity would do to itself.. all merged together and became the emperor as some sort of last ditch effort... ( Yes this could possibly mean the emperor could have been iconic figures like Jezus,, while on the other hand there are statements the emperer kept himself to the shadows for a couple of thousands of years to study human kind before acting)

WRONG.

From the 6th edition Codex daemons pg 6:

It says mortals and races. Not humans specifically.

Also the Necrons and C'tan are at fault.

Eldar created Slaanesh. Nobody else. Their(Eldar) souls belong to Slaanesh.

Well now, i dont have that Codex so i havent read that Also what i said is what i recall something Horus said to one of his captains BEFORE, he was turned.. I believe in book 1 or 2 of the Horus Heresy, and yes,.. i might be somewhat off since it has been a while since i read the book

Also, about the Tau,.. i took that from a friend who plays Tau,.. if he is wrong i will slap him

 Brother Captain Alexander wrote:

 Waaghboss Grobnub wrote:

As Fezma said,.. the warp used to be quite stable and peacefull,.. untill Necrons and the C'Tan got so screwed up,..

Fixed that for ya

Thank you i guess I know that the warp was always there, even when the Necrons and eldar were at the height of their power and bla bla,.. but somehow i was/am convinced that the warp started realy going crazy when Humanity started acting crazy...

 Zinderneuf wrote:


I never go so far as to say anyone is wrong where 40K fluff is concerned. I think it is more fun to look at it like this: The Imperium is so full of (lies within lies, conspiracies within conspiracies, inquisitors trying to kill each other over the 'truth', etc.) that no one really knows what is real. Thus, where fluff is contradictory, I just assume it is one inquisitor's viewpoint versus another's. Just because the fluff is from a newer edition doesn't make it more true, it probably just represents a newer viewpoint, or one that is more popular now.

So everything is the Imperium's and humanity's fault then?

I can see it: Fall of the Eldar? Imperium's and humanity's fault! War in Heaven? Imperium's and humanity's fault! Creations of the Orks? Imperium's and humanity's fault! Everything is the Imperium's and humanity's fault!

Thank god, our Tau, mary sue saviors will fix everything!

Now that that bullcrap is out of the way, Codex and common sense says that its everyone's fault that Chaos gods are around.



Automatically Appended Next Post:

hemmis92 wrote:
I'll jump on the bandwagon and say that the Deamons are created by and feed of our fear, hate, love, lust, compassion (and all those other lovely, living emotions that make life interesting). As to a possible solution to the problem?
I have always (ever since reading the rulebook and deamons codex for the first time) thought that the whole "we life of you like really bad parasites" seems like a rather silly tactic...
Think about it, if the deamons do get what they want (turn the entire universe into a battle/pestilent blob/crazy maze/orgy) and make every living soul go bat-s*** insane, then what?
You food will die, and then you will "die" (or cease to be exist) and you will have screwed the universe over forever (or at least this galaxy, could be more...)

For me, this poses a logical problem. I don't see Tzeench or Nurgle to happy with an empty scene and no funny puppets to manipulate and/or give funny plagues... Khorne, well, he's just nutters, and Slaanesh don't seem to think too much about anything more than Eldar-butt... But that still leaves two of the "greates of the pantheon" not voting for "lets screw everything over".

Just my two (very long) cents... Aaand, just my opinion

Why do you assume that daemons are logical?

I wouldn't say the setting as a whole is very realistic. I will say however, that 40K is one of the few Science Fiction settings that manages scale properly. You see something like Star Wars, where a supposedly massive Fleet battle has around forty battleships, and planetary assaults are performed by numbers in the thousands.

40K says screw that, will dedicate thousands of juggernaut warships to a single sector, and have planetary invasions numbering in the billions as a minimum.

hemmis92 wrote:
I'll jump on the bandwagon and say that the Deamons are created by and feed of our fear, hate, love, lust, compassion (and all those other lovely, living emotions that make life interesting). As to a possible solution to the problem?
I have always (ever since reading the rulebook and deamons codex for the first time) thought that the whole "we life of you like really bad parasites" seems like a rather silly tactic...
Think about it, if the deamons do get what they want (turn the entire universe into a battle/pestilent blob/crazy maze/orgy) and make every living soul go bat-s*** insane, then what?
You food will die, and then you will "die" (or cease to be exist) and you will have screwed the universe over forever (or at least this galaxy, could be more...)

For me, this poses a logical problem. I don't see Tzeench or Nurgle to happy with an empty scene and no funny puppets to manipulate and/or give funny plagues... Khorne, well, he's just nutters, and Slaanesh don't seem to think too much about anything more than Eldar-butt... But that still leaves two of the "greates of the pantheon" not voting for "lets screw everything over".

Just my two (very long) cents... Aaand, just my opinion

I guess this discussion is getting a bit metaphysical, but I think that is the whole problem with evil: it is essentially self-destructive. Thus the Chaos Gods have no choice but to head pell-mell toward annihilation, each in its own way. The trouble is that they tend to drag us along with them.

Corporal_Reznov: yay, raege Well, maybe "logical" isn't the word, but IMHO Tzeentch for one isn't about to let his "ultimate plans" end in nothing but a big black nothingness? Seems a little... uncolourful...
And dude, really, calm down, it's a game.. No hatin' on the blue commie-fish-people on SPESS!
I prefer mindcontrol to "Unreasonable hatred, YEAH!" (The tale of Caldor Draige, if anyone where wondering...)

hemmis92 wrote:
Corporal_Reznov: yay, raege Well, maybe "logical" isn't the word, but IMHO Tzeentch for one isn't about to let his "ultimate plans" end in nothing but a big black nothingness? Seems a little... uncolourful...
And dude, really, calm down, it's a game.. No hatin' on the blue commie-fish-people on SPESS!
I prefer mindcontrol to "Unreasonable hatred, YEAH!" (The tale of Caldor Draige, if anyone where wondering...)

But, ultimately, I think that is the whole point. His big wheels within wheels within wheels within... can only come to nothing. Either they overload on their own complexity, or Tzeentch runs everything. So what then? No need to make any further plans. Each Chaos god ends in its own way. Khorne in a big pile of dead on the battlefield, Nurgle in a big pile of dead from the plague. Slaanesh in a big pile of dead from... VD? Exhaustion? Tzeentch is a bit more esoteric in this sense, but in the end his schemes lead nowhere. Eventually he defeats all of his mastermind opponents. Does he then scheme against himself?


Automatically Appended Next Post:
I also read in some fairly early fluff (can't remember which edition) that ultimately, Nurgle, who's essence is rot, defeats all the other Chaos Gods, and has a long, slow reign until everything finally rots into nothing.

hemmis92 wrote:
Corporal_Reznov: yay, raege Well, maybe "logical" isn't the word, but IMHO Tzeentch for one isn't about to let his "ultimate plans" end in nothing but a big black nothingness? Seems a little... uncolourful...
And dude, really, calm down, it's a game.. No hatin' on the blue commie-fish-people on SPESS!
I prefer mindcontrol to "Unreasonable hatred, YEAH!" (The tale of Caldor Draige, if anyone where wondering...)

Rage? I was being sarcastic. If I rage, I post lots and lots of profanity.

Read the below by Zinderneuf. it explains things about the gods.

 Zinderneuf wrote:

I guess this discussion is getting a bit metaphysical, but I think that is the whole problem with evil: it is essentially self-destructive. Thus the Chaos Gods have no choice but to head pell-mell toward annihilation, each in its own way. The trouble is that they tend to drag us along with them.

tvtropes is not a credible source but they explain it better than I can:

And do you know what Tzeentch's ultimate plan is? ... He doesn't have one! Tzeentch is the very embodiment of scheming and change and transformation; he doesn't need a goal to achieve. He exists, literally, just to meddle with things and see what happens; he can never lose because he's not trying to win. No matter what the outcome is, so long as something keeps happening, Tzeentch is winning — he's just got to set the wheels in motion so that the universe keeps changing.

In a way, that's a bit (however tiny) of good news for everyone else, because if he did have some ultimate diabolical goal (such as enslaving the souls of ALL humanity at once), he could easily do so since he obviously has the power and especially foresight for it. Thank the Emperor that he's too "random" for that.

Failure Is the Only Option: Taken to its extreme. Tzeentch will die if any of his myriad plans succeed, thus every one of his plans will fail because he sabotages them, and he has several plans that run completely contrary to his other plans by design (though, of course, not as the end). This is the real measure of his chessmastery skills, the fact that he has millions of these running, most extremely complex and many spanning centuries, and not one of them succeed even by accident because he is that damn good.

For the Lulz: Tzeentch cannot be foiled, simply because he doesn't actually have a plan to foil. If Tzeentch ever actually "won", then he would probably cease to exist, because that would mean that nothing would ever be able to change any more.

hemmis92 wrote:
I'll jump on the bandwagon and say that the Deamons are created by and feed of our fear, hate, love, lust, compassion (and all those other lovely, living emotions that make life interesting). As to a possible solution to the problem?
I have always (ever since reading the rulebook and deamons codex for the first time) thought that the whole "we life of you like really bad parasites" seems like a rather silly tactic...
Think about it, if the deamons do get what they want (turn the entire universe into a battle/pestilent blob/crazy maze/orgy) and make every living soul go bat-s*** insane, then what?
You food will die, and then you will "die" (or cease to be exist) and you will have screwed the universe over forever (or at least this galaxy, could be more...)

For me, this poses a logical problem. I don't see Tzeench or Nurgle to happy with an empty scene and no funny puppets to manipulate and/or give funny plagues... Khorne, well, he's just nutters, and Slaanesh don't seem to think too much about anything more than Eldar-butt... But that still leaves two of the "greates of the pantheon" not voting for "lets screw everything over".

Just my two (very long) cents... Aaand, just my opinion

I support this idea
Tzeentch is probably living quite well off all the plots and plans he has to make in order to keep the universe together, and in at least the 5th ed chaos codex it states that Tzeentch will never allow his plans to come to a conclusion, as that would be the end of fate, and all possible plot lines that could be manipulated (well, words to that effect...). In other words, the universe will probably remain exactly as it is, forever due to there being too much for the gods to loose if it changes (and GW will never advance the storyline anyways).

My understanding is that, yes chaos gods/demons were created by emotions (the races the Old Ones created to be psychic weapons) but once those emotions came together to form a being they had their being and did not need worship/emotions to continue living but the would continue to strengthen them. If all emotion in the universe ceased instantly, the gods and demons would be largely unaffected as they already have their being and could hypothetically feed of of each others emotions and continually self propogate. Some of this is speculation and some is second hand knowledge but it seems to me like a logical conclusion.

Just as daemons can break through into the material realm, the material realm can break through into the Immaterium. The result of a daemonic incursion is the introduction of Chaos into Cosmos -- therefore, the incursion of the material into the Warp is the opposite -- the imposition of order. Perception is a form of material incursion into the Warp. The order of perceptive reflection imposes reliable patterns onto the formlessness of Chaos. The most striking of these patterns are the Ruinous Powers. In essence, the Four exist because we have polluted the Warp with our emotional perception.