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Hi guys,

Just have a potential idea here and it be may an easy answer for some of you. I am thinking of running a Keeper of Secrets with a Witstealer sword. Now I am planning on him charging a particular combat termy unit with a decent CC marine character inside. In conjunction with this I am thinking of charging the same squad with Fiends of Slaanesh, thus reducing their initiative to 1 from the modifier, and then having the KotS slap the marine hero around in challenge and get essentially double the wounds if he is taking initiative tests on his reduced I of 1.

I have read around and found conflicting answers and while I think the above is how it would work - I would be keen to hear what more knowledgeable players think.

Cheers all.

Nothing on the init test states "Unmodified", so you would use their modified initi from the fiends. If he is I5 or less then he would drop to I0 and automatically fail.

maybe just smash and instakill the hero? Or is it an eternal warrior hero?

nvm

I agree...no reason the combo shouldn't work.

Although as for dropping Initiative to 0, GW is going to need to FAQ that in some regard because there are no rules for what happens when models with an Initiative of 0 get locked in combat (not that this necessarily impacts this particular question, of course).

That's, um...that's dirty. I LIKE IT!

Now, the entry reads that if a model suffers an unsaved wound from the sword, it takes another. Does this second wound require it to test again? The second wound is coming from the sword as well.

No, it would have to spell that out. Otherwise it'd just be Instant Death by another name.

 Mannahnin wrote:
No, it would have to spell that out. Otherwise it'd just be Instant Death by another name.

Not quite true-after all, they still have opportunities for passing the next initiative test. Not the fault of the Daemon player if he has a fiend in there turning initiative into a big, fat pancake. Still, if they intend it to work that way, an FAQ would be in order, as it could be argued either way. I just sent them an email, asking if they could clarify that when they do the Daemon FAQ. Whether or not it makes it in, who knows...but I asked for it as an FAQ.

He would still pass the initiative test on a "1". Look on page 7 of the big rule book (not sure of the small one) where it talks about tests. A "1" always passes no matter the modifiers the model has. If it's base characteristic is "0" then it automatically fails no matter what. So if it has a modifier on the model then it can still pass on a "1".

So yes it would work but they still would have a chance of passing it even with the -5 modifier on a "1".

I believe I read it right in the rule book. Which wouldn't make it as powerful and would make more since.

 Mannahnin wrote:
No, it would have to spell that out. Otherwise it'd just be Instant Death by another name.

While I think that is probably what was intended (only one 'bonus' wound can be caused per 'regular' wound caused) that isn't actually how it is written...technically speaking, for each wound caused by a failed Initiative test, another Initiative test would then be taken until the model is dead or passes an Initiative test. It is only the equivalent to Instant Death in the case where a model has an Initiative of 0 at the time...in any other circumstance it would be a series of Initiative checks until one was passed or the model is killed (so not exactly the same thing).

I'll add that to my FAQ thread though, as I do think it isn't what was intended, because there are rules written like that in the codex (keep taking a test until one is passed or the entire unit is wiped out), although those abilities can pass from one model to another, so they're not completely equivalent to the Witstealer & Plague Flail rules.

tgoodman2003 wrote:
He would still pass the initiative test on a "1". Look on page 7 of the big rule book (not sure of the small one) where it talks about tests. A "1" always passes no matter the modifiers the model has. If it's base characteristic is "0" then it automatically fails no matter what. So if it has a modifier on the model then it can still pass on a "1".

So yes it would work but they still would have a chance of passing it even with the -5 modifier on a "1".

I believe I read it right in the rule book. Which wouldn't make it as powerful and would make more since.

No, the way the rule is worded, it means that even if the model's characteristic has been reduced to a '1', you still pass that test on a roll of '1' or if there are modifiers to the actual test, they still can't affect the auto-pass on a roll of '1'.

But in this case, the modifier is actually being applied to the model's characteristic and as it currently stands, it can reduce the characteristic to 0, and the rules on page 7 are VERY clear that if the model has a 0 characteristic, then it automatically fails the test.

 yakface wrote:

 Mannahnin wrote:
No, it would have to spell that out. Otherwise it'd just be Instant Death by another name.

While I think that is probably what was intended (only one 'bonus' wound can be caused per 'regular' wound caused) that isn't actually how it is written...technically speaking, for each wound caused by a failed Initiative test, another Initiative test would then be taken until the model is dead or passes an Initiative test. It is only the equivalent to Instant Death in the case where a model has an Initiative of 0 at the time...in any other circumstance it would be a series of Initiative checks until one was passed or the model is killed (so not exactly the same thing).

I'll add that to my FAQ thread though, as I do think it isn't what was intended, because there are rules written like that in the codex (keep taking a test until one is passed or the entire unit is wiped out), although those abilities can pass from one model to another, so they're not completely equivalent to the Witstealer & Plague Flail rules.

tgoodman2003 wrote:
He would still pass the initiative test on a "1". Look on page 7 of the big rule book (not sure of the small one) where it talks about tests. A "1" always passes no matter the modifiers the model has. If it's base characteristic is "0" then it automatically fails no matter what. So if it has a modifier on the model then it can still pass on a "1".

So yes it would work but they still would have a chance of passing it even with the -5 modifier on a "1".

I believe I read it right in the rule book. Which wouldn't make it as powerful and would make more since.

No, the way the rule is worded, it means that even if the model's characteristic has been reduced to a '1', you still pass that test on a roll of '1' or if there are modifiers to the actual test, they still can't affect the auto-pass on a roll of '1'.

But in this case, the modifier is actually being applied to the model's characteristic and as it currently stands, it can reduce the characteristic to 0, and the rules on page 7 are VERY clear that if the model has a 0 characteristic, then it automatically fails the test.

Well, I'll be sure to let everyone know right away what the answer is from GW. I realize that an actual answer from Customer Service means nothing, but they may give info about whether or not it'll be hitting the FAQ, which is the important part.

 timetowaste85 wrote:

Well, I'll be sure to let everyone know right away what the answer is from GW. I realize that an actual answer from Customer Service means nothing, but they may give info about whether or not it'll be hitting the FAQ, which is the important part.

I'm definitely interested to hear what they say if they respond, but you're right that you never know whether that answer will match what the actual FAQ answer ends up being (if they even answer that question in their FAQ).

Thanks for the replies guys, awesome responses. I do think that if the unit being charged is I5 or lower, then they are going to automatically fail initiative tests as they will be at 0 for those purposes.

Then I imagine they will just attack last, even after I1 units