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By the book we have to roll an extra die to go charge through terrain.

What if it depends on the charge distance?

For Instance, my 2 SMs are Charging 3 ork boys. the SM in front is 5" away from the closest boy and there is no terrain. The second SM is 7" from the second boy, but the boy is to the right behind a defense line. The 2nd SM would have to go through the terrain to get into B2B with the boy.
If I roll a 5 or 6 on 2d6 I can charge the 1st boy, then move my 2nd SM in cohesion with the 1st and not pass through terrrain. If I roll 7 or more I must go B2B with the 2nd boy.
How do I determine how many dice to roll?

If any have to move through terrain, you have to roll three d6.

Page 22 is pretty clear on this situation.

 Kevin949 wrote:
If any have to move through terrain, you have to roll three d6.

Kevin is right.

But the key words are "have to" in this case the 1st Ork boy is not in terrain.

Strictly speaking, if you roll only 2D6, you cannot move the second model into terrain (because you didn't roll for D/D terrain) and therefor can only go into base 2 base with the 1st ork boy.

But I am just guessing here, the rules say "if possible" that after the initial charger moves into BTB the others must try to get into BTB with the next closest. I assume "if possible" to mean you cannot enter terrain because you did not roll 3D6.

Since they have written the rules in such a way the most common work around is to roll 2d6 plus 1d6 of another color so if the 2d6 allows/forces a model to go through terrain you take the extra d6 into consideration if not then stick with just the 2d6.

Make sure you are reading the errata'd version of "Charging Through Difficult Terrain"...

Charge Move, Charging Through Difficult Terrain.Change the first sentence to read

“If, when charging, one or
more models have to move through difficult terrain in order to
reach the enemy by the shortest possible route, the unit must
make a Difficult Terrain test (see page 90).”

There are definitely 2 schools of thought on what this means. First, try to second-guess what the actual Charge Move might look like, roll an extra coloured d6 just in case a model might move through terrain, in which case you might have to undo half of the Charge Move you've already made, or....

Once you've declared a charge and survived Overwatch, look at each charging model and ask the question "does this model have to move through DT to reach the enemy by the shortest route"? If one or more models answer YES, then roll 3d6 (lowest 2) for your Charge distance. Otherwise, roll 2d6 as usual.

In the OPs example, neither SM has to move through DT to reach enemy, therefore roll 2d6. If it happens that the distance rolled allows the 2nd marine to get into base contact with one of the orks at the back, good luck to him - moral of the story, don't stick one of your models out the front of DT if you want to slow Chargers down.

rulebook faq

Page 22 ¬ Charge Move, Charging Through Difficult Terrain.
Change the first sentence to read “If, when charging, one or
more models have to move through difficult terrain in order to
reach the enemy by the shortest possible route, the unit must
make a Difficult Terrain test (see page 90).

Only because it was posted twice already and I was ready to paste it anyway, per the BRB FAQ -

Page 22 ¬ Charge Move, Charging Through Difficult Terrain.
Change the first sentence to read “If, when charging, one or
more models have to move through difficult terrain in order to
reach the enemy by the shortest possible route, the unit must
make a Difficult Terrain test (see page 90).”

Snapshot wrote:

In the OPs example, neither SM has to move through DT to reach enemy, therefore roll 2d6. If it happens that the distance rolled allows the 2nd marine to get into base contact with one of the orks at the back, good luck to him - moral of the story, don't stick one of your models out the front of DT if you want to slow Chargers down.

In the OPs example the second marine would have to go through terrain to engage the any ork the first marine doesn't engage and the op would have to roll the 3d6.

A good rule of thumb is if a model in a charging unit has the potential to have to go through terrain (an enemy model on the other side of DT is within its maximum charge range) you must roll the 3d6. If a model doesn't end up crossing terrain during the charge due to a low roll, you don't suffer the initiative penalty (though models with assault grenades wouldn't have to worry about that anyway).

 Tarrasq wrote:

Snapshot wrote:

In the OPs example, neither SM has to move through DT to reach enemy, therefore roll 2d6. If it happens that the distance rolled allows the 2nd marine to get into base contact with one of the orks at the back, good luck to him - moral of the story, don't stick one of your models out the front of DT if you want to slow Chargers down.

In the OPs example the second marine would have to go through terrain to engage the any ork the first marine doesn't engage and the op would have to roll the 3d6.

Not if the Charge distance was 5".

That's the problem. If you start playing "what if" with this rule it becomes a mess. Hence the simpler interpretation of what is written - does a model have to go into DT terrain to engage the enemy? This (probably) means the enemy model that is closest to him - who cares if he ends up engaging another model way at the back when the actual Charge Move happens - the rule doesn't ask us to "pre-play" the Charge Move to work it out.

Per the FAQ you measure shortest distance for each model. If even one of them would go through DT you roll the extra dice.

 Happyjew wrote:
Per the FAQ you measure shortest distance for each model. If even one of them would go through DT you roll the extra dice.

When you say "for each model" what do you mean?

A:
1st SM to 1st Ork AND 2nd SM to 2nd Ork

or

B:
1st SM to 1st Ork AND 2nd SM to 1st Ork

The Errata's rule says "B".

But how does this:

Page 22 ¬ Charge Move, Charging Through Difficult Terrain.
Change the first sentence to read “If, when charging, one or
more models have to move through difficult terrain in order to
reach the enemy by the shortest possible route, the unit must
make a Difficult Terrain test (see page 90).”

Change the requirements of this??

If possible, a charging model must move into base contact
with an enemy model within reach that is not already in
base contact with another charging model.

it doesn't that is not the the passage that is Errata'd.

Edit:

Folks used to try to avoid charging through terrain by going around the terrrain, this makes it clear that you must take the shorts possible route and if that mean going through terrain then you must roll 3D6.

40k-noob wrote:

 Happyjew wrote:
Per the FAQ you measure shortest distance for each model. If even one of them would go through DT you roll the extra dice.

When you say "for each model" what do you mean?

A:
1st SM to 1st Ork AND 2nd SM to 2nd Ork

or

B:
1st SM to 1st Ork AND 2nd SM to 1st Ork

Snapshot wrote:The Errata's rule says "B".

But that doesn't follow the rules for moving assaulting models. You cannot base an engaged model if there is an unengaged model within reach.

 puma713 wrote:

40k-noob wrote:

 Happyjew wrote:
Per the FAQ you measure shortest distance for each model. If even one of them would go through DT you roll the extra dice.

When you say "for each model" what do you mean?

A:
1st SM to 1st Ork AND 2nd SM to 2nd Ork

or

B:
1st SM to 1st Ork AND 2nd SM to 1st Ork

Snapshot wrote:The Errata's rule says "B".

But that doesn't follow the rules for moving assaulting models. You cannot base an engaged model if there is an unengaged model within reach.

Which is precisely the problem that a lot of people have with this rule. You are not executing a Charge Move, you are following a procedure to work out your Charge distance - 2 different animals. Let me say that many people DO go down the path of rolling the extra "provisional" d6 and "pre-play" the Charge Move to see if that combination of dice means a 2d6 or 3d6 roll. I'm just not one of them. YMMV.

What if the shortest route for one model doesn't go through terrain, and for another model it does, but that other model could not "reach the enemy" even if rolling a 12.
Would you still use 2d6 AND move one model into terrain?

 psyklone wrote:
What if the shortest route for one model doesn't go through terrain, and for another model it does, but that other model could not "reach the enemy" even if rolling a 12.
Would you still use 2d6 AND move one model into terrain?

If the shortest route takes a model through DT, roll 3d6 (lowest 2) - the errata'd rule says nothing about a model being within 12" (or not). When you actually make the Charge Move, follow the Charge Move rules, which may or may not have a model going through DT. Note that you only suffer the Init 1 penalty if a model ACTUALLY moves through DT (3rd para, p22).

So it is perfectly possible to suffer the 3D6 penalty for the charge distance, but NOT suffer the Init 1 penalty because noone actually moved through DT. Go figure!

Lets just do what jervis Johnson told us to do and roll a d6 for it.

When I declare a charge, the first thing I have to check is the range, so:
if enemy models within 12" from my unit are reachable only passing through DT, I'd assume to have to roll the additional die
if the path is clear for my whole unit, I'd roll the normal 2d6"

In OP I see we have the first option, so I'd roll the third die

Okay I understand what you're getting at Snapshot, but your answer to the OP is flawed because we don't know if that first ork is the closest enemy to the second marine. If that was the case then the OP should roll the 2d6. If not, the 3d6.

Though there is a question when there are multiple shortest routes. Do you have to randomize or does one possible shortest route through terrain damn you to the 3d6?

Tarrasq, you're quite right the OP didn't give enough info to know that the distance between the 2nd SM and the closest ork.

IF, it was the ork out in the open, roll 2D6 and if he rolls 7+ he'll get to charge the 2nd ork in DT with the 2nd SM (giving the unit the Init 1 penalty).

IF the ork in DT is the closest, - 3D6 lowest 2. If any SM makes it into DT, the Init 1 penalty applies.

Also, if the Charge distance is only enough to get the SMs in combat with the ork out in the open (whether 2D6 or 3D6) they don't suffer the Init penalty.

IWO, the charge distance dice is independent of the Init penalty.

If there was multiple shortest routes, the Errata's rule seem to take care of that - you only roll 3D6 if you HAVE to traverse DT to get to the enemy.

my only concern, is that the rules for moving the other models after the initial charger says, "...if possible..."

So is it possible to enter D/D terrain if you do not roll 3D6?

If it is not possible, then the by rule, no other model after the initial charger can even attempt to go into terrain and must try to get into B2B with the 1st ork or be within 2" of a model in BTB.

You're required to engage as many models as possible by the shortest route allotted to you. It would be quite simple, with pre-measuring, to determine whether you are going to have to cross D/D terrain or not. Most of the time you should be able to eyeball it.

And remember, the terms for engaging are B2B first, within 2" of a b2b model second, just staying in coherency third.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

40k-noob wrote:
it doesn't that is not the the passage that is Errata'd.

Edit:

Folks used to try to avoid charging through terrain by going around the terrrain, this makes it clear that you must take the shorts possible route and if that mean going through terrain then you must roll 3D6.

And I don't get how they ever did and got away with it, the rules on page 22 are pretty clear that you're required to engage as many as possible and the rules on page 21 specifically state

"Moving Charging Models
Charging units must attempt to engage as many opposing
models in the enemy unit as possible with as many of their
models as possible - no holding back or trying to avoid terrain!"

My bolding.

Camarodragon wrote:But how does this:

Page 22 ¬ Charge Move, Charging Through Difficult Terrain.
Change the first sentence to read “If, when charging, one or
more models have to move through difficult terrain in order to
reach the enemy by the shortest possible route, the unit must
make a Difficult Terrain test (see page 90).”

Change the requirements of this??

If possible, a charging model must move into base contact
with an enemy model within reach that is not already in
base contact with another charging model.

Camarodragon finds the reasoning behind my OP. SM 2 being closer to Ork 2 than Ork 1 is not the problem.
The problem arises from having to get in to B2B with as many models as possible. If B2B is unattainable then 2" of a previously moved model is acceptable.

Gravmyr wrote:Since they have written the rules in such a way the most common work around is to roll 2d6 plus 1d6 of another color so if the 2d6 allows/forces a model to go through terrain you take the extra d6 into consideration if not then stick with just the 2d6.

I like the 3 dice idea. That makes sense.

 Kevin949 wrote:
You're required to engage as many models as possible by the shortest route allotted to you. It would be quite simple, with pre-measuring, to determine whether you are going to have to cross D/D terrain or not. Most of the time you should be able to eyeball it.

And remember, the terms for engaging are B2B first, within 2" of a b2b model second, just staying in coherency third.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

40k-noob wrote:
it doesn't that is not the the passage that is Errata'd.

Edit:

Folks used to try to avoid charging through terrain by going around the terrrain, this makes it clear that you must take the shorts possible route and if that mean going through terrain then you must roll 3D6.

And I don't get how they ever did and got away with it, the rules on page 22 are pretty clear that you're required to engage as many as possible and the rules on page 21 specifically state

"Moving Charging Models
Charging units must attempt to engage as many opposing
models in the enemy unit as possible with as many of their
models as possible - no holding back or trying to avoid terrain!"

My bolding.

I never called anyone on it because it didn't seem that big a difference maker, (since I played mostly against Marines and they have frag 'nades) but it must have been a problem somewhere hence the FAQ.

How would you all interpret this charge. Black is charging orange.
Do you roll 2d6 or 3d6.. or 2d6 then and extra die if you find that you can make it..?

This is a very vexing question for me.

You start throwing multiple more models in there and it really complicates things.

You would roll 3d6 as there is a possibility to get in b2b with the back guy.

The errata changes things. Before you roll for charge distance you have to look at the shortest route to the enemy (i.e. the closest enemy model) for each charging model. If those routes force you to cross DT you roll the 3d6.

In camarodragon's scenario the shortest route for both black models is to the closest orange model. Neither route crosses terrain. So you roll the 2d6.

The rules for moving charging models are separate from the rules for determining the charge distance dice. It is possible that you roll 2d6 and have to move through terrain when following the rules for moving charging models , and you suffer all the results of doing so (init penalty Dangerous Terrain tests).

This really underscores the importance of properly placing your models as leaving a straggler outside terrain can make it easier for your opponent to charge that unit, if he positions the charge correctly.

 Kevin949 wrote:
You would roll 3d6 as there is a possibility to get in b2b with the back guy.

This is a reasonable answer, but it's not how the rule is written.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Tarrasq wrote:
The errata changes things. Before you roll for charge distance you have to look at the shortest route to the enemy (i.e. the closest enemy model) for each charging model. If those routes force you to cross DT you roll the 3d6.

In camarodragon's scenario the shortest route for both black models is to the closest orange model. Neither route crosses terrain. So you roll the 2d6.

The rules for moving charging models are separate from the rules for determining the charge distance dice. It is possible that you roll 2d6 and have to move through terrain when following the rules for moving charging models , and you suffer all the results of doing so (init penalty Dangerous Terrain tests).

This really underscores the importance of properly placing your models as leaving a straggler outside terrain can make it easier for your opponent to charge that unit, if he positions the charge correctly.

The errata doesn't change the fact that if one model from the unit passes through difficult terrain then the unit should roll 3d6. And if the roll on 2d6 is high enough the 2nd SM would be charging through terrrain to get into B2B