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Is it wise to take more then one squad of scouts with sniper rifles? I was thinking as a tactic to have them deployed in a way to have cross firing lines

+For eldar? Good

For non eldar? Terribad.

It really depends on the matchup, scout snipers are good against walking monstrous creatures and not much else.

I only use one unit of scout snipers, their firepower is pretty pathetic.

Your standard 100pt. stick of sniper scouts (5 men, camo cloaks, HB/ML) is really good for sitting on objectives and still contributing to the fight. They have the best range of all the scout options, a really good cover save, and they look cool doing it. So they make great objective campers. But how many of those do you need?

But they are not there for the damage output. On average, they should put a little over one wound on their target with the rifles, which is going to get an armor save. Doesn't matter is they are shooting at grots or hive tyrants, they are consistent that way. And yes, if they get lucky they have precision/rending/pinning rules that can come into play.

But if you want a crossfire that can hurt stuff, get some real marines.

 Evileyes wrote:
+For eldar? Good

For non eldar? Terribad.

Evileyes, can you expand on this (ie, why)? My son plays Eldar and I don't understand the strengths of Eldar snipers vs non-Eldar.

Eldar snipers have bs4, and their shots are also ap1 on a 6 to hit (5 if you buy the path finder upgrade) so are much more likely to actually do some damage unlike SM scouts where 4+ to hit, 4+ to wound plus an armour save (against non-rending) means they generally won't do anything.

Eldar Snipers have higher BS, go AP1 on a hit roll of 6 (or 5,6 as pathfinders) and still rend normally.

Downside: they are very expensive pointswise.

Eventually this tatic has to work well for someone. Why do snipers get such a low BS? I mean they are snipers for crying out loud.

Thanks for the info. I didn't realise SM snipers were only BS3. Like many people, I love the idea of snipers but they always seem underwhelming given their cost.

Thanks for the input guys

I wouldnt take snipers on any army except guard ratlings at this point. Eldar snipers are horrid for the point cost (120 point nets you <1 rending wound with pathfinder upgrade).

Ratlings, however, are incredible. Grab 2 squads, keep them under a reg banner, and you have yourself 20 BS4 sniper shots for 200 points.

Snapshot wrote:
Thanks for the info. I didn't realise SM snipers were only BS3. Like many people, I love the idea of snipers but they always seem underwhelming given their cost.

Underwhelming for their cost? Compare a 5 man combat squad of marines to a 5 man sniper/cloak scout squad. We'll forgo the heavy weapon to keep things simple at 90 points.

At 24-36" range the snipers are just better.

Between 12-24" it depends on what you are shooting. The tac marines should get slightly more hits, wound the same vs. T4, and if we assume the target is MEQ, they get saves. Unless the sniper gets a rend. Statistically this is probably a wash. Against softer targets the bolter has an edge, against tougher ones the sniper wounds on a 4+ gives them the upper hand. Don't forget that the scout sergeant still has BS4.

Once you hit rapid fire range the bolters just pull ahead. Unless you are shooting at some giant monster.

So are you more concerned with med/long range or short/med range? As this is normally a unit taken for backfield camping, I'd say long range is better.

As for taking hits, first we assume cover. Lets call it a 4+ ruins/walls/ADL. There is probably one on the table, and your scouts want to be in there. Camo cloaks boost this to a 3+, the same as you'd get in power armor. So against most shooting, you are the same as the tactical marines. Against AP3, you are better. Against heavy flamers you are meat for the BBQ while they laugh it off, but nothing is perfect...

You need troops. You need to camp your home objective. Scout snipers do that, and still bring something to the game. But you are not bringing them primarily for their firepower. They will lightly irritate anything on the table. But at less then 100 points, they are not expensive. Sure, for the same points you could get a dakka pred or a typhoon/HB speeder, both of which put out a LOT more firepower. But they don't hold objectives. And holding objectives is what wins games.

Meh... if you want snipers the only efficient way to field them is ratlings. Anything other than that is either a waste of points or a horrible waste of points. Telion, a missile launcher, and camo cloaks can make a unit of 10 scouts decent MC hunters, but now we're all the way up at 240 points for this unit that will only kill (on average) 1.1 marines per turn?

Why pay 18 points for a BS3 sniper rifle, when Ratlings are BS4, and come stock with stealth for only 10 points? The choice to me seems obvious.

I think that a single squad of Space Marine scouts in an Aegis Defense Line, with Telion manning the big gun, is pretty damn awesome. I'm a big fan of scouts, but I've never found multiple units of snipers to be a good idea. One unit is great to soften up/destroy monstrous creatures or high toughness/good armor save units.

In sixth edition, the addition of precision fire as a standard feature of all sniper weapons makes the scouts a much more viable unit with a much more useful function, allowing them to pick off specialists that the normal wound distribution rules would keep safe behind a wall of meat shields. (Runtherds, artillery crew, the plasma gunner in a tactical squad, the vox operator in an infantry squad of IG, etc.) Rending is a nice bonus, but not something to rely on.

Just my opinion, of course.

Don't listen to what everyone tells you, space marine snipers unlock some nasty cheese.

If you take a ten man squad, you can combat squad. Even better, you can replace the squad sergeant with telion and operate emplaced weapons (so you get access to four str 7 precision shots on a quad gun, that probably wont miss). You can even mix and match weapons, so you get to put a missile launcher on that quad gun squad, and deploy the rest of the squad somewhere else... I'm looking at the stormraven for this.

so for 227 points, you get a unit that can snipe out nasty war gear with regularity (even space marines fail 1 in three saves and the quad gun gives you four), a missile launcher, a stupid good save behind the ADL, a 5 man squad of close combat (add another 200 if you want a stormraven, they can then contest objectives super late in the game). and best of all, two units that can either squat on an objective behind your gunline, and in the case of the Stormraven, can even go contest an objective without much chance of denial.

Also, don't forget, that the storm raven isn't some fancy delivery system point sink. It can also tank hunt all game and if you opt to go second, is almost guaranteed to gib a flyer when it shows up.

BS3 isn't stellar, but it isn't bottom of the barrel either. And you get rending/pinning.

Anyone who tries to tell you that SM scouts suck just because Pathfinders are awesome needs to take a look at the points cost, delivery options and special rules that come with space marines. They can also go take a peek at the points cost on their Rangers. (19 base, plus 5 for pathfinders).

Think about synergy in your own codex, play what you think is fun, and don't be put off by netlisting unless you want to go cheese sampling at a serious tournament.

davou - If you take a ten man squad, you can combat squad. Even better, you can replace the squad sergeant with telion and operate emplaced weapons (so you get access to four str 7 precision shots on a quad gun, that probably wont miss). You can even mix and match weapons, so you get to put a missile launcher on that quad gun squad, and deploy the rest of the squad somewhere else... I'm looking at the stormraven for this.

so for 227 points, you get a unit that can snipe out nasty war gear with regularity (even space marines fail 1 in three saves and the quad gun gives you four), a missile launcher, a stupid good save behind the ADL, a 5 man squad of close combat (add another 200 if you want a stormraven, they can then contest objectives super late in the game). and best of all, two units that can either squat on an objective behind your gunline, and in the case of the Stormraven, can even go contest an objective without much chance of denial.

So true. I field 3 x 10 man squads. I don't bother with Camo Cloaks though, so 150 per squad.

Quantity has a certain quality

While a little more expensive, you are generally better off with 2x5 man squads then one 10 man. Unlike tactical squads, where you don't get any toys until you are full strength, scouts get everything out of the gate. Plus more sergeants with the better stat line, more HB/MLs, and the options to not take cloaks on the the whole squad. You probably aren't using up all your troop slots on the FOC anyway.

 akira5665 wrote:

davou - If you take a ten man squad, you can combat squad. Even better, you can replace the squad sergeant with telion and operate emplaced weapons (so you get access to four str 7 precision shots on a quad gun, that probably wont miss). You can even mix and match weapons, so you get to put a missile launcher on that quad gun squad, and deploy the rest of the squad somewhere else... I'm looking at the stormraven for this.

so for 227 points, you get a unit that can snipe out nasty war gear with regularity (even space marines fail 1 in three saves and the quad gun gives you four), a missile launcher, a stupid good save behind the ADL, a 5 man squad of close combat (add another 200 if you want a stormraven, they can then contest objectives super late in the game). and best of all, two units that can either squat on an objective behind your gunline, and in the case of the Stormraven, can even go contest an objective without much chance of denial.

So true. I field 3 x 10 man squads. I don't bother with Camo Cloaks though, so 150 per squad.

Quantity has a certain quality

Indeed it does, however Camo Cloaks simply add +1 to any cover save now, so that combined with Telion's Stealth makes for a Shrouded unit. Also, Telion on an Icarus LC would be able to precision shot with it, giving him some insane kill range, especially to terminators or multi-wound models with a low invuln or cover save. Better yet, put that Icarus on top of a Bastion and very few things will get a decent cover save.