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They're always on the front cover of the Imperial Guard codex, but they seem atypical. Cadia is totally dedicated towards war, and Cadian youths are indoctrinated from a young age into army discipline. This would surely create a far more deadly fighting force than the typical imperial planet?

There is no such thing as a typical guard regiment.

 Amaya wrote:
There is no such thing as a typical guard regiment.

There is, I doubt that all of the population of the Imperium is perfectly balanced between different sizes and types of world. It'd be fair to assume that a majority of Imperial citizens live in urbanised, fairly-developed societies, since such societies are capable of maintaining higher populations than feudal or deathworlds. Basically the typical guard regiment is not the result of lifelong military training, since the Imperium cannot be maintained if every able-bodied man was in the military.

With regards to the vast range of regiments and the localised, often interwoven, cultures between them - no, there really isn't a typical Guard regiment.
That said, the Cadians are atypical in one respect...they're mostly kept in their home system. The majority of other regiments get shipped all over the place.

I think that they are the typical guard because they have a very generic look. Also fluff wise I believe other regiments use the same style equipment.

Cadians are considered typical not because that their way of fighting is generic, but due to their fame and honor that makes them to be widely copied across Imperium. It's because of that there is far greater chance to see cadian looking regiments in the Imperium than any other.

Btw: I fail to see how Cadians can be your typical sci-fi army.

 Super Ready wrote:
With regards to the vast range of regiments and the localised, often interwoven, cultures between them - no, there really isn't a typical Guard regiment.
That said, the Cadians are atypical in one respect...they're mostly kept in their home system. The majority of other regiments get shipped all over the place.

So the "norm" for the Imperial guard is to be trained at fighting from birth? I'm pretty sure that's not true.

Basically what has already been said. I suppose one could also describe them as poster boys for the Imperial Guard like the Ultramarines are to the Space Marines. You are correct though, the quality of Cadian regiments is usually above most other Imperial Guard regiments.

Their appearance is that of the vanilla Guard regiment. Most Guard Regiments use the same general gear/appearance. However, they're more well-trained and capable then most Guard Units. It should be noted that the Guard Regiments most seen in fluff (Cadians, Catachans, Tanith, Vostroyans, Valhallans, Krieg, Mordians, Tallarns, etc.) are actually the elite famed units of the Guard. The vast majority are not as dynamic or capable.

 Amaya wrote:
There is no such thing as a typical guard regiment.

This, every world use their own uniforms and tradicions.
However... large number of world is copying Cadian equipment and issuing them to their Regiments ( Vendoland, Tartarus etc... ), why Cadian and not some other, I don't know...

I believe the reason Cadians are so heavily copied in gear and doctrine is the fact that they aren't specialists; they're standard troops, and thus their way of fighting and equipment is easily exported.

You don't see Catachan copies, because jungle death worlds with tyranid-esque giant bugs trying to murder you from birth aren't that common, so emulating Catachan style warfare is difficult, much the same for Krieg, Elysia and so on. I thin the Armageddon Steel Legion is the only other readily exportable doctrine, as almost any Imperial world can build Chimeras.

 BryllCream wrote:

 Super Ready wrote:
With regards to the vast range of regiments and the localised, often interwoven, cultures between them - no, there really isn't a typical Guard regiment.
That said, the Cadians are atypical in one respect...they're mostly kept in their home system. The majority of other regiments get shipped all over the place.

So the "norm" for the Imperial guard is to be trained at fighting from birth? I'm pretty sure that's not true.

No. But no one regiment really looks the same. Every planet has it's own culture and traditions, since they were all separated from a large ruling body for a long while. Every regiment is different, so there is no "typical" regiment. Majority of the citizens may life in fairly developed and urban societies, but their culture can still be VERY. Look at Dubai and New York. Both are " fairly developed and urban societies" but they will raise very different kinds of people.

Cadians are just shown a lot because they are always seen in the big battles around the EoT which make for good epic covers. Plus, you DO see other regiments quite a lot if you actually look at more than just covers.

Oh, and Cadians use all the basic issue equipment. BDU's and flak armor, nothing more nothing less. In reality, if you are looking for a true "typical" regiment the Cadians are that. They look generic (no defining physical features), fight in generic modern ways, and are equipped in pretty standard ways. If you look at some pretty deep fluff, a lot of IG regiments ARE the best soldiers from the planet (a lot of planets pull from the top of the PDF to form regiments) and most likely are in line with the basic Cadian soldier. The Cadian may shoot slightly better and slightly faster, but it's not enough of a difference to warrant rule changes.

 BryllCream wrote:

 Super Ready wrote:
With regards to the vast range of regiments and the localised, often interwoven, cultures between them - no, there really isn't a typical Guard regiment.
That said, the Cadians are atypical in one respect...they're mostly kept in their home system. The majority of other regiments get shipped all over the place.

So the "norm" for the Imperial guard is to be trained at fighting from birth? I'm pretty sure that's not true.

Nah, it's only the norm to be fighting from birth if your next door neighbor is the Eye of Terror...or you were born on a certain Deathworld where all the fauna and flora want you for lunch!

 Kaiserbudheim wrote:

Nah, it's only the norm to be fighting from birth if your next door neighbor is the Eye of Terror...or you were born on a certain Deathworld where all the fauna and flora want you for lunch!

Don't forget the radioactive wasteland where you train all your life to earn forgiveness from the Emperor.

Just about any deathworld regiment is trained to fight from birth - Catachans being a prime example. Vostroyans First Born and Death Korps of Krieg are also pre-destined to be Guardsmen so it's perfectly imaginable that they'd start young too, if not straight from birth.

Cadians are not the typical Guard regiment but rather the gold standard.

Their methods of fighting, training and equipment are copied across the galaxy thanks to the Cadian's sterling reputation.

Well, one, Vostroya isn't a Death World. Two, it only tithes the first-born sons of its families to the Guard. Three, even if Vostroya had been a Death World at some point, the manufactoria now covering the planet have pretty much scoured it clean of all "native" life.

Cadians are not the typical guard regiment. Their basic infantry are called 'Shock Troops' for a reason - their planet is constantly at DEFCON 1, due to being a spit away from the Eye of Terror. They are the Ultramarines of the Imperial Guard (i.e. they're the elite poster boys). But on the other hand, there is no 'typical' guard regiment, just as there is no typical armed forces in the world we live in now. Think of the Cadians as the American military - tooled up to the teeth and leading the world in weapons development. Then you've got third-world militias who are using black-market Soviet stuff. Just as in the Imperium, there are probably some Imperial Guard regiments that stumble into battle wearing string vests (with their breakfast spilled on them for camouflage) and lasguns missing all but the vital components to make them fire.

 ObliviousBlueCaboose wrote:
I think that they are the typical guard because they have a very generic look. Also fluff wise I believe other regiments use the same style equipment.

I think Blue has got it surrounded.

 Psienesis wrote:
Well, one, Vostroya isn't a Death World. Two, it only tithes the first-born sons of its families to the Guard. Three, even if Vostroya had been a Death World at some point, the manufactoria now covering the planet have pretty much scoured it clean of all "native" life.

I think you missed my point. I was citing them (and the Death Korps) as examples of regiments that are "started early", so to speak.

The Cadian backstory isn't typical. It's just their equipment that is "typical".

Basically, the models look the most generic, and have the broadest basic appeal.

Cadians are typical in that their style of equipment is typical, not in their storyline. IE, most guardsmen have Cadia-styled flak armor and other equipment.

But every planet has a different culture, and often multiple cultures, so you'll still have some variation. Some planets have enough variations taht they're considered an entirely different style, such as Catachan and Valhalla.

I'd imagine that another reason that Cadian gear is copied all around is because of the necessary replacement volume required.

I'd imagine that due to the sheer amount of gear needed to keep the Cadians at fighting trim, whole worlds are dedicated to providing them with their gear. Excess could go to other regiments?

 MajorStoffer wrote:
I think the Armageddon Steel Legion is the only other readily exportable doctrine, as almost any Imperial world can build Chimeras.

I would add to that the Mordian Iron Guard - it's a lot easier to train people to stand together, shoulder to shoulder, in a ranked formation than to get them to act and think independently in a loose formation - if the officers & sergeants are doing all the thinking and you're just obeying each order or command, you don't have to think about what you're going to do next whilst the discipline that holds you in the formation and keeps you firing your lasgun to words of command will help to check your urge to run away because you're one person in a massive group of people - herd instinct if you will.

I think it's a flaw to say that any army on the front of a book, etc... are the "typical" army of that race.

I mean, every army book presents its most interesting and cool armies. It's not like I expect Codex: Tyranids to show me the Hive Fleet that was kind of okay, but gets beat fairly often. You wanna see the badasses that the army has to offer.

Ultramarines are a perfect example; they could showcase any number of marine chapters who don't have such a stellar track record, but instead they pick a chapter that (based on current fluff) is pretty good at what they do, so people are enthused to play them.. Same thing with Cadians.

 Sparks_Havelock wrote:

 MajorStoffer wrote:
I think the Armageddon Steel Legion is the only other readily exportable doctrine, as almost any Imperial world can build Chimeras.

I would add to that the Mordian Iron Guard - it's a lot easier to train people to stand together, shoulder to shoulder, in a ranked formation than to get them to act and think independently in a loose formation - if the officers & sergeants are doing all the thinking and you're just obeying each order or command, you don't have to think about what you're going to do next whilst the discipline that holds you in the formation and keeps you firing your lasgun to words of command will help to check your urge to run away because you're one person in a massive group of people - herd instinct if you will.

Only to a point, creating the discipline to actually stay in that formation, and fire of will timed barrages, and then hold off the enemy with bayonets is difficult in the real world, when fighting mere humans using muzzle-loaders, and in some rare, and rather stupid cases, breech-loaders. The British army at Isandlwana broke, the French in the Franco-Prussian war barely stood their ground, and Napoleon's reputation caused regiments to break before the Grande Armee could even close into firing range. It takes excellent drill, and sound leadership to maintain that kind of formation. It's admittedly easier if you're fighting someone who doesn't shoot back much (given Mordians fight Chaos a lot, their formations make some sense, they'd do rather poorly against Tau or Eldar, however), but in most cases, without exceptional leadership or training, close-order formations tend to break before they reach 50% casualties.

In the 40k setting, it's not very exportable due to both the nature of warfare (not everyone enjoys the privilege of fighting CC-oriented armies), and the inherent difficulty in getting such a formation to hold together. Being in close proximity with so many men who will likely start to die around you, or on top of you, is not an easy scenario to endure for most soldiers. What I do imagine, however, is the Guard practices close-order formations when engaging a CC swarm army, whether it be Tyranids, Orks, Chaos or the like; concentrating lasgun fire on charging enemies who don't shoot much makes a certain amount of sense, provided your men will hold the line, hence, I imagine, Commissars.

 Kajata wrote:
I think it's a flaw to say that any army on the front of a book, etc... are the "typical" army of that race.

I mean, every army book presents its most interesting and cool armies. It's not like I expect Codex: Tyranids to show me the Hive Fleet that was kind of okay, but gets beat fairly often. You wanna see the badasses that the army has to offer.

Ultramarines are a perfect example; they could showcase any number of marine chapters who don't have such a stellar track record, but instead they pick a chapter that (based on current fluff) is pretty good at what they do, so people are enthused to play them.. Same thing with Cadians.

I'm afraid that on the cover of Codex Astartes it will only display one Chapter and that's the Ultramarines, for several reasons;
1. Popular both in terms of background & models, as well as being 'centre stage' for several 40k games (Space Marine, Kill-Team, Squad Command) which may be where some people encounter the Space Marines & Ultramarines first, before looking into the hobby.
2. Their Primarch wrote out the Codex Astartes and the Ultramarines are the most rigid adherents to it.
3. They've an easy colour scheme to paint for new people to the hobby/system. Blue with some gold edging and white markings. Nice and easy.

It's not just 'current' background, there's more to it than that.

As for Cadians? They've been on the front cover since 3rd Edition Guard Codex (1st version) and since the 3rd Edition Guard Codex (2nd version) they've been the 'standard' Guard regiment and this comes down to production of models mainly. When I first started playing 40k I could buy 10 model box sets of white-metal Cadians or Valhallans or Mordians or Tallarn. Years later the Steel Legion was added to the list as were Praetorians. Point is there was plenty of choice and in order to create a more diverse range of models without having to do 5-6 different Guard regiments, they plumped with Cadians & Catachans arguably the two most popular choices. With the release of the plastic Cadians they really started pushing them as the standard Imperial Guard regiment and in the Codex it even states that due to the fame of the Cadian regiments other worlds emulate/copy their uniform & equipment as well as their tactics - therefore people still have that widescope to create their own regiments with an extensive range of plastic models which they can customize or paint up how they wish. With the Marines you don't have this problem because a Marine from the Blood Angels Chapter wears the same armour as a fellow from the Ultramarines Chapter - there're less defining details of their appearance compared to the differences between a Death Korps of Krieg soldier from Forgeworld and a plastic Cadian.

 MajorStoffer wrote:
Only to a point, creating the discipline to actually stay in that formation, and fire of will timed barrages, and then hold off the enemy with bayonets is difficult in the real world, when fighting mere humans using muzzle-loaders, and in some rare, and rather stupid cases, breech-loaders. The British army at Isandlwana broke, the French in the Franco-Prussian war barely stood their ground, and Napoleon's reputation caused regiments to break before the Grande Armee could even close into firing range. It takes excellent drill, and sound leadership to maintain that kind of formation. It's admittedly easier if you're fighting someone who doesn't shoot back much (given Mordians fight Chaos a lot, their formations make some sense, they'd do rather poorly against Tau or Eldar, however), but in most cases, without exceptional leadership or training, close-order formations tend to break before they reach 50% casualties.

In the 40k setting, it's not very exportable due to both the nature of warfare (not everyone enjoys the privilege of fighting CC-oriented armies), and the inherent difficulty in getting such a formation to hold together. Being in close proximity with so many men who will likely start to die around you, or on top of you, is not an easy scenario to endure for most soldiers. What I do imagine, however, is the Guard practices close-order formations when engaging a CC swarm army, whether it be Tyranids, Orks, Chaos or the like; concentrating lasgun fire on charging enemies who don't shoot much makes a certain amount of sense, provided your men will hold the line, hence, I imagine, Commissars.

My point was merely that it's easier to train people to fight shoulder to shoulder with other people - not everyone can think for themselves in loose formations especially when shot & shell are flying past you and the enemy are getting closer and closer, the stress of trying to stay alive while killing the enemy - if you don't have the reassuring presence of people either side of you and behind you you might panic and turn tail quicker than if you're in formation - but there you highlight the big issue with close formation is how vulnerable those in the formation are and I utterly agree with you - seeing huge chunks of fellow soldiers being blown apart just a few files away is not reassuring at all especially when you're being showered in their blood and body parts. However I didn't say it was a good idea, or practical, just it is a readily exportable doctrine and one that's relatively easy to teach. That way you've three doctrines covered; loose formations (Cadians), mechanized formations (Steel Legion), close order formations (Mordians). Where close order formations may be truly applicable is when you have a feudal world where what ranged weapons they do have may be blackpowder weapons or laslocks - slower loading and/or inaccurate where massed firepower is needed to score hits.

I'd take issue with you mentioning Isandlwana as an example where close-order drill failed - a lack of ready ammunition meant that the terrific rate of fire of the Martini-Henry (fast for its time), with it's incredible stopping power, had to slacken as the men ran low on cartridges and spare ammunition was eeked out to companies because ammunition boxes had to be unscrewed and QMs didn't want to distribute ammunition to other units besides their own. When the inevitable lull in firing occured the Zulu's surged in. The British soldiers were also badly deployed and didn't laager their wagons. Poor leadership led further to the defeat. Close-order drill was not the problem but factors beyond the control of the soldier in the ranks of the 24th. No wonder they broke when they only had bayonets left and no ammunition with hordes of Zulu's rushing towards them yelling 'Suthu!, 'Suthu! following by their shout of S'jee! when they plunged their Assagi home. Funny how the British didn't break at the Battle of Ulundi - they learnt from their mistakes at Isandlwana and had the ammunition ready to be handed out inside the massive square. Kambula isn't truly worth mentioning in this context as it was fought from behind a large fortified laager whilst Gingindlovu was fought from a very strong defensive position.

Personally, I'm with rems01. At least when following GW's descriptions, Cadians being the "gold standard" makes perfect sense due to their reputation. Them being "typical", on the other hand, narrows their fame and seems less realistic given the immense degree of variation among Imperial worlds and their respective cultures, which would inevitably affect their armed forces as well. Guard regiments raised on planet X will always look just like its PDF does.

"The uniforms and specific armaments of the different Imperial Guard regiments change dramatically from world to world. Upon their raising, each regiment is equipped in the manner of their home world. The newly inducted Imperial Guardsmen are issued with the same style of uniform and weapons as that of their own world's fighting forces. The troopers may go to war in full battle-dress or little more than primitive armour and tribal tattoos. The only universal piece of equipment common throughout the entirety of the Imperial Guard is the lasgun."
- 5E C:IG p.8

Coincidentally, the passage on Cadians in the current Guard Codex is directly prefaced by the following sentence:
"There are a million worlds in the Imperium and the regiments raised on each have their own culture, language, equipment and fighting styles."

And lastly, from the Codex Eye of Terror:
"Such is their reputation that many other regiments emulate their equipment and tactical doctrines, although few can match their prowess."

This last sentence is where I think the assumption of Cadians being "typical" may stem from, yet some other regiments trying to emulate them does not exactly mean the same thing - especially not when keeping the vast number of regiments making up the Imperial Guard in mind.