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2013/03/14 03:15:31
Subject: Oklahoma House Votes to Nullify Obamacare, 72-20
OKLAHOMA CITY (March 13, 2013) – Nullification of Obamacare in Oklahoma took a step closer to reality Wednesday when the Oklahoma House overwhelmingly approved a bill that would nullify the Patient Protection and Affordable Care Act.
HB1021 declares Obamacare unconstitutional and calls on the Oklahoma legislature to take action to prevent implementation of the federal health care plan in the Sooner State.
It shall be the duty of the Legislature of this state to adopt and enact any and all measures as may be necessary to prevent the enforcement of the “Patient Protection and Affordable Care Act” and the “Health Care and Education Reconciliation Act of 2010” within the limits of this state.
The bill passed 72-20 and will now move on to the State Senate.
Oklahoma Liberty executive director Mark Kreslins said bill sponsor Rep. Mike Ritze, along with States’ Rights Committee chairman Rep. Lewis Moore, Rep. Dan Fisher and Rep. John Enns all delivered passionate floor speeches prior to the vote, calling on their fellow representatives to step up, and rein in an out of control and tyrannical federal government.
Kreslins also credited strong grass roots support for pushing the bill through.
“This is a great day for nullification and for the liberty movement with the overwhelming victory of HB 1021,” he said. “We want to extend a huge ‘thank you’ to everybody who came out Tuesday to the liberty rally and then talked to your representatives on behalf of the bill. This victory would not have possible without you.”
Ritze said states have to step up and stop the federal government from completely running over the most basic rights of the people and their states.
“Thomas Jefferson made it perfectly clear in the Kentucky Resolution of 1799 when he wrote; ‘That if those who administer the general government be permitted to transgress the limits fixed by that compact, by a total disregard to the special delegations of power therein contained, annihilation of the state governments, and the erection upon their ruins, of a general consolidated government, will be the inevitable consequence.’”
Senator Nathan Dahm will serve as the bill’s primary sponsor in the Senate. It has not been assigned a committee at this time.
Mannahnin wrote:A lot of folks online (and in emails in other parts of life) use pretty mangled English. The idea is that it takes extra effort and time to write properly, and they’d rather save the time. If you can still be understood, what’s the harm? While most of the time a sloppy post CAN be understood, the use of proper grammar, punctuation, and spelling is generally seen as respectable and desirable on most forums. It demonstrates an effort made to be understood, and to make your post an easy and pleasant read. By making this effort, you can often elicit more positive responses from the community, and instantly mark yourself as someone worth talking to.
insaniak wrote: Every time someone threatens violence over the internet as a result of someone's hypothetical actions at the gaming table, the earth shakes infinitisemally in its orbit as millions of eyeballs behind millions of monitors all roll simultaneously.
2013/03/14 03:19:01
Subject: Re: Oklahoma House Votes to Nullify Obamacare, 72-20
But the Oklahoma legislature, thankfully, will save the Supreme Court the time.
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The first civil war was started to keep some people slaves in the name of liberty. Even today, we have people who wouldn't mind a second civil war to keep some people from accessing medical services -- also in the name of liberty.
Manchu wrote: The first civil war was started to keep some people slaves in the name of liberty. Even today, we have people who wouldn't mind a second civil war to keep some people from accessing medical services -- also in the name of liberty.
Out of curiosity, do you think gross misrepresentations of the other side put you on the same level or even lower than the "death panel" people?
2013/03/14 04:40:06
Subject: Oklahoma House Votes to Nullify Obamacare, 72-20
Manchu wrote: I'm unaware of undertaking a gross misrepresentation. Stay curious.
In that case, we must conclude you truly believe that those who oppose Obamacare do so out of a desire to deny medical treatment to others. Based on prior conversations, I would have given you a lot more credit than that, but I will reevaluate.
2013/03/14 04:47:32
Subject: Oklahoma House Votes to Nullify Obamacare, 72-20
It will be a mutual reevaluation, as it seems you believe this kind of opposition to the ACA is about something other than reinforcing a system that profits on denying medical treatment.
Manchu wrote: It will be a mutual reevaluation, as it seems you believe this kind of opposition to the ACA is about something other than reinforcing a system that profits on denying medical treatment.
I'm sorry, are you actually familiar with the ACA? Because it's a massive gift to "a system that profits on denying medical treatment."
2013/03/14 04:52:16
Subject: Oklahoma House Votes to Nullify Obamacare, 72-20
How about opposing the ACA on the grounds that it only breaks things further instead of actually fixing things, and is "a gaping financial wound"? Full capitalism, or a true single payer system, the ACA only makes things an even more expensive, uglier mess.
I beg of you sarge let me lead the charge when the battle lines are drawn
Lemme at least leave a good hoof beat they'll remember loud and long
KalashnikovMarine wrote: How about opposing the ACA on the grounds that it only breaks things further instead of actually fixing things, and is "a gaping financial wound"? Full capitalism, or a true single payer system, the ACA only makes things an even more expensive, uglier mess.
Nope. According to what we've just learned, you just want to let people die in the streets. Also, you'd probably like to be a slaveholder.
2013/03/14 05:03:57
Subject: Oklahoma House Votes to Nullify Obamacare, 72-20
KalashnikovMarine wrote:How about opposing the ACA on the grounds that it only breaks things further instead of actually fixing things, and is "a gaping financial wound"? Full capitalism, or a true single payer system, the ACA only makes things an even more expensive, uglier mess.
I agree. But it does prevent people from being denied insurance, which I believe was deemed by the ACA's creators as being more important than the horrendously expensive bureacratic mess that it creates.
Ultimately, I think the ACA question is really: "is medical care a human right, and thus unconcerned with the monetary cost?"
2013/03/14 05:04:27
Subject: Oklahoma House Votes to Nullify Obamacare, 72-20
KalashnikovMarine wrote:How about opposing the ACA on the grounds that it only breaks things further instead of actually fixing things, and is "a gaping financial wound"? Full capitalism, or a true single payer system, the ACA only makes things an even more expensive, uglier mess.
I agree. But it does prevent people from being denied insurance, which I believe was deemed by the ACA's creators as being more important than the horrendously expensive bureacratic mess that it creates.
Ultimately, I think the ACA question is really: "is medical care a human right, and thus unconcerned with the monetary cost?"
I'm fething concerned with the monetary costs! Honestly the ACA is a complete clusterfeth, the creators of the bill had nothing so high minded as preventing people from being denied insurance in their heads when they passed it, other wise they would have passed a bill that did just that, instead of the ACA, which well we're still trying to figure out what all it does.... besides generate an ungodly amount of paperwork and cost a fortune.
I beg of you sarge let me lead the charge when the battle lines are drawn
Lemme at least leave a good hoof beat they'll remember loud and long
KalashnikovMarine wrote: How about opposing the ACA on the grounds that it only breaks things further instead of actually fixing things, and is "a gaping financial wound"? Full capitalism, or a true single payer system, the ACA only makes things an even more expensive, uglier mess.
Nope. According to what we've just learned, you just want to let people die in the streets. Also, you'd probably like to be a slaveholder.
Premise 1: medical care is a human right.
Premise 2: medical care is attempting to be denied based upon "states' rights".
Premise 3: not being a slave is a human right.
Premise 4: not being a slave was denied based upon "states' rights".
Conclusion: either you do just want to let people die in the streets (reject Premise 1), or else you'd probably like to be a slaveholder.
I'm not entirely serious, but this isn't completely devoid of reason, either.
2013/03/14 05:10:10
Subject: Oklahoma House Votes to Nullify Obamacare, 72-20
KalashnikovMarine wrote: How about opposing the ACA on the grounds that it only breaks things further instead of actually fixing things, and is "a gaping financial wound"? Full capitalism, or a true single payer system, the ACA only makes things an even more expensive, uglier mess.
Nope. According to what we've just learned, you just want to let people die in the streets. Also, you'd probably like to be a slaveholder.
It's a hobby, and as an Irish American, I'm far more likely to be whipped then I am to crack one.
KalashnikovMarine wrote: How about opposing the ACA on the grounds that it only breaks things further instead of actually fixing things, and is "a gaping financial wound"? Full capitalism, or a true single payer system, the ACA only makes things an even more expensive, uglier mess.
Nope. According to what we've just learned, you just want to let people die in the streets. Also, you'd probably like to be a slaveholder.
Premise 1: medical care is a human right.
Premise 2: medical care is attempting to be denied based upon "states' rights".
Premise 3: not being a slave is a human right.
Premise 4: not being a slave was denied based upon "states' rights".
Conclusion: either you do just want to let people die in the streets (reject Premise 1), or else you'd probably like to be a slaveholder.
I'm not entirely serious, but this isn't completely devoid of reason, either.
See Premise 2 is an assumption though, you assume that the people who reject the ACA for whatever reason want to deny people medical care. It's a massive leap in logic.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2013/03/14 05:11:54
I beg of you sarge let me lead the charge when the battle lines are drawn
Lemme at least leave a good hoof beat they'll remember loud and long
KalashnikovMarine wrote: How about opposing the ACA on the grounds that it only breaks things further instead of actually fixing things, and is "a gaping financial wound"? Full capitalism, or a true single payer system, the ACA only makes things an even more expensive, uglier mess.
Nope. According to what we've just learned, you just want to let people die in the streets. Also, you'd probably like to be a slaveholder.
Premise 1: medical care is a human right.
Premise 2: medical care is attempting to be denied based upon "states' rights".
Premise 3: not being a slave is a human right.
Premise 4: not being a slave was denied based upon "states' rights".
Conclusion: either you do just want to let people die in the streets (reject Premise 1), or else you'd probably like to be a slaveholder.
I'm not entirely serious, but this isn't completely devoid of reason, either.
It is, as it involves a couple of incorrect assumptions. I'm iffy on Premise 1, but Premise 2 is the real problem. Written correctly, it would read, "Forced purchase of a service from a private commercial entity is being denied based upon states' rights."
2013/03/14 05:20:21
Subject: Oklahoma House Votes to Nullify Obamacare, 72-20
Seaward wrote: I'm sorry, are you actually familiar with the ACA? Because it's a massive gift to "a system that profits on denying medical treatment."
Yeah, see the problem there is that your description is total fantasy, that can only be claimed out of complete ignorance of reality, or complete indifference to it. And given how many times this stuff has been explained to you before, it's pretty clear you're just choosing to post whatever you like, regardless of what's actually true.
In ACA there exists for the first time a national requirement for insurers to pay out at least 80% of their collections in actual medical coverage. Given there is now a hard cap on how much any insurer can profit from the system, describing the bill as a gift to those companies is complete lunacy.
And of course, there is now no allowance for healthcare providers to deny protection based on a pre-existing condition. This is both the law that made it necessary to require people to get insurance, and a massive obligation on private insureres (who previously made much of their profit by figuring out who to exclude from coverage, including people who had up until that point been paying in to their system). Given that if you asked insurers to between a mandate for people to take insurance (or face a small fine), or the insurers being able to decide who it did and didn't insure, every single one of them is obviously going to choose the latter. Making your point, once again, complete loonie pants nonsense.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2013/03/14 05:24:08
“We may observe that the government in a civilized country is much more expensive than in a barbarous one; and when we say that one government is more expensive than another, it is the same as if we said that that one country is farther advanced in improvement than another. To say that the government is expensive and the people not oppressed is to say that the people are rich.”
Adam Smith, who must have been some kind of leftie or something.
2013/03/14 05:21:11
Subject: Oklahoma House Votes to Nullify Obamacare, 72-20
KalashnikovMarine wrote:
See Premise 2 is an assumption though, you assume that the people who reject the ACA for whatever reason want to deny people medical care. It's a massive leap in logic.
What? No it's not. This entire thread is based around Premise 2.
2013/03/14 05:25:46
Subject: Oklahoma House Votes to Nullify Obamacare, 72-20
Seaward wrote: Not at all. You're still conflating "opposition to the ACA" with "opposition to medical care for some people."
The idea that the nutbars protesting against ACA would totally be in favour of some other unstated and unknown means of providing healthcare to the uninsured 30 million is the blackest of comedy. It's the kind of claim you have to read and just laugh, because the alternative is to spend hours trying to get a liar admit he is lying.
I mean, fething seriously...
How many efforts were made by movement conservatism to extend healthcare coverage to the uninsured before ACA - none.
How many alternatives to ACA that would extend healthcare coverage to the uninsured have been proposed since ACA was announced - none.
How many future efforts will there be to extend healthcare to coverage to the uninsured - yeah, fething totally, we do really want that, it's just we don't want it this way because freedom, state's rights and here's a quote from Thomas Jefferson.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2013/03/14 05:44:59
“We may observe that the government in a civilized country is much more expensive than in a barbarous one; and when we say that one government is more expensive than another, it is the same as if we said that that one country is farther advanced in improvement than another. To say that the government is expensive and the people not oppressed is to say that the people are rich.”
Adam Smith, who must have been some kind of leftie or something.
2013/03/14 06:03:59
Subject: Oklahoma House Votes to Nullify Obamacare, 72-20
sebster wrote:
How many future efforts will there be to extend healthcare to coverage to the uninsured - yeah, fething totally, we do really want that, it's just we don't want it this way because freedom, state's rights and here's a quote from Thomas Jefferson.
I'm just gonna leave this here...
2013/03/14 06:04:09
Subject: Oklahoma House Votes to Nullify Obamacare, 72-20