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Gate of infinity states the unit "immediately arrives using the rules for Deep Strike"

Deep Strike says "In the Movement phase during which they arrive, deep striking units may not move any further ... In that turn's Shooting phase, these units can fire (or Run) as normal, and obviously count as having moved ... In that turn's Assault phase, however, these units cannot charge"

Since the unit is not actually deep striking or even coming in from reserve does that mean they are free to move, shoot and charge as normal? I mean, it does not say it's a Deep Strike or that it counts as one and the drawbacks specifically apply to units that Deep Strike. so... opinions on RAW?

The unit is actually Deep Striking, as they use the rules for Deep Strike.

They deep strike.

Yup, deep strike.

 Abandon wrote:
Gate of infinity states the unit "immediately arrives using the rules for Deep Strike"

You use the rules for Deep Strike. Those rules include no moving or assaulting.
It doesn't say "use some rule for deep strike", or use "use the rules for deep strike, except the one you don't like".

Why are they not D/S?

The Deep Strike rules also state that the entire unit must have Deep Strike for them to do so, that rule is ignored as it does not apply to the unit using GOI. They are not coming in from reserve, those rules are ignored as they do not apply either. They are not deep striking. They are arriving by the rules for Deep Strike but that is not what they are doing, they are using Gate of Infinity. Obviously these are not exactly the same and some of the deep strike rules do not apply. I just noted that many of the drawbacks state the use of the special rule as a qualifier and you have not used the special rule, you used GOI.

Strictly speaking, you did not use Deep Strike unless they say you did... which they do not. They only borrow some rules. You are not arriving from reserves so you are not actually making a Deep Strike. This leaves only that you are to place your models using the deep strike rules. Not having actually used the SR you also should not be subject to any of the drawbacks that list it as a requirement to be in effect.

Edit: Essentially you are already picking out the rules from the SR that apply to GOI, why are the ones that specify a deep striking unit and have nothing to do with placing models being counted as in effect?

They are placed using the Deep Strike rules. This is a short way of saying that you must follow the Deep Strike rules except where they are explicitly or implicitly overridden.

Does using the power require you to ignore the rule about every model having the Deep Strike special rule? Yes.

Does using the power require you to ignore the rule about not moving further or assaulting? No.

 Abandon wrote:
Edit: Essentially you are already picking out the rules from the SR that apply to GOI, why are the ones that specify a deep striking unit and have nothing to do with placing models being counted as in effect?

Because the only part of the Deep Strike rules that you are given any reason to ignore is the part that specifies who can do it. GOI gives you specific permission to use the Deep Strike rules.

Aside from that, though, if you are using the Deep Strike rules, then you are Deep Striking... because the Deep Strike rules do nothing except from define what happens when a unit Deep Strikes.

 Mannahnin wrote:
They are placed using the Deep Strike rules. This is a short way of saying that you must follow the Deep Strike rules except where they are explicitly or implicitly overridden.

Does using the power require you to ignore the rule about every model having the Deep Strike special rule? Yes.

Does using the power require you to ignore the rule about not moving further or assaulting? No.

No but the rule about not moving further only applies to units that deep strike. This unit did not use that SR.

They could have just as easily said to 'place the unit in ongoing reserves and immediately deploy them using the Deep Strike SR, placing the first model within...'

...but they didn't say that.

Now we have to determine which deep strike rules apply to the non-deep striking unit.

Whole unit must have Deep Strike - Not deep striking, does not apply
Deep Strike reserve rules - Not deep striking, does not apply
Placing a deep striking unit - The unit must 'arrive' so we have to use these
Deep striking units can't move further - Not deep striking, does not apply
Deep striking units can't assault - Not deep striking, does not apply

 Abandon wrote:

 Mannahnin wrote:
They are placed using the Deep Strike rules. This is a short way of saying that you must follow the Deep Strike rules except where they are explicitly or implicitly overridden.

Does using the power require you to ignore the rule about every model having the Deep Strike special rule? Yes.

Does using the power require you to ignore the rule about not moving further or assaulting? No.

No but the rule about not moving further only applies to units that deep strike. This unit did not use that SR.

They could have just as easily said to 'place the unit in ongoing reserves and immediately deploy them using the Deep Strike SR, placing the first model within...'

...but they didn't say that.

Now we have to determine which deep strike rules apply to the non-deep striking unit.

Whole unit must have Deep Strike - Not deep striking, does not apply

Is placed using the DEEP STRIKE RULES (therefore, is using the Deep Strike SR)
This phrase in the GoI rule gives you explicit permission to override the general SR stipulation.

Deep Strike reserve rules - Not deep striking, does not apply

Again, is placed using DEEP STRIKE RULES (therefore it is using the Deep Strike SR, therefore it is Deep Striking)
It is not in reserve as you are given specific permission to place it immediately

 insaniak wrote:

 Abandon wrote:
Edit: Essentially you are already picking out the rules from the SR that apply to GOI, why are the ones that specify a deep striking unit and have nothing to do with placing models being counted as in effect?

Because the only part of the Deep Strike rules that you are given any reason to ignore is the part that specifies who can do it. GOI gives you specific permission to use the Deep Strike rules.

Aside from that, though, if you are using the Deep Strike rules, then you are Deep Striking... because the Deep Strike rules do nothing except from define what happens when a unit Deep Strikes.

an effect that tells you to use some of the rules for deep strike and ignore others is not the same as using the SR.

It tells you to use the Deep Strike rules. Therefore you use the DS rules except where explicitly told otherwise, or where those rules would cause Gate of Infinity not to function at all.

 Abandon wrote:
an effect that tells you to use some of the rules for deep strike and ignore others is not the same as using the SR.

If I am putting your cookie in my mouth, chewing it, and swallowing it, I am eating your cookie, regardless of whether or not you think I am eating your cookie.



The Gating unit is placed using the Deep Strike rules. So it is placed using the Deep Strike rules... which means it is Deep Striking, because Deep Striking is the result of using the Deep Strike rules.

lol isnaniak

You deep strike when you come in from reserve via the SR. You are not coming in from reserve and it is therefore not a deep strike. That you use some but not all of the rules for it does not allow you to consider it a deep strike either. You are in fact only permitted to use the rules that allow them to arrive. It does not give you permission to use any other rules in the deep strike SR.

This is more like having the cookie teleported into your tummy. Did you eat the cookie per the eating cookies rules? No, but it did use some of the rules for it.

 Abandon wrote:
You deep strike when you come in from reserve via the SR.

Normally, yes.

However in the case of GoI, you are given specific permission to Deep Strike despite not being in reserve.

That you use some but not all of the rules for it does not allow you to consider it a deep strike either.

If a weapon doesn't have to roll to hit, is it still shooting?

So then why is there any reference to the Deep Strike rules at all if none of those rules apply? It seems to me that your the one who's cherry-picking the specific rules he wants to use and is ignoring the others. You either use all of the rules that are not specifically overridden or none at all.

 insaniak wrote:

 Abandon wrote:
You deep strike when you come in from reserve via the SR.

Normally, yes.

However in the case of GoI, you are given specific permission to Deep Strike despite not being in reserve.

That you use some but not all of the rules for it does not allow you to consider it a deep strike either.

If a weapon doesn't have to roll to hit, is it still shooting?

That's just the thing, you are not given permission to deep strike, that would have been much clearer. As it is you are only allowed to arrive via the deep strike rules minus the rest and add more rules in for GoI itself. Ultimately what you do is fundamentally different from a deep strike and without a 'is' or a 'counts as a deep strike' we are not permitted to treat it as such. It's using GoI to be removed and placed back on the battlefield using some of the deep strike rules to place your models(to arrive). You are still not arriving by Deep Strike, you are arriving by GoI unless they say otherwise which they do not.

Two weapons that use some of the same rules are still separate weapons.

Yes, you are arriving via GoI.

How do you arrive via GoI? You use the Deep Strike Rules. What Deep Strike Rules are you given permission to override? Who is allowed to Deepstrike, that's it. Nothing more. The restriction on moving and assaulting still persists as it is part of the Deep Strike rules and you are not given permission to do otherwise.

 Abandon wrote:
That's just the thing, you are not given permission to deep strike, ...

Yes you are. You're told to place the models using the deep strike rules.

The deep strike rules detail how to perform a deep strike. Ergo, placing the models using those rules is deep striking.

Rorschach9 wrote:Yes, you are arriving via GoI.

How do you arrive via GoI? You use the Deep Strike Rules. What Deep Strike Rules are you given permission to override? Who is allowed to Deepstrike, that's it. Nothing more. The restriction on moving and assaulting still persists as it is part of the Deep Strike rules and you are not given permission to do otherwise.

Borrowing the rules for arriving does not mean you borrow the restrictions as well. You are only permitted to place the unit by the DS rules, you are not allowed to restrict them by them as well. Those restrictions specify a deep strike, which you have not done.

insaniak wrote:

 Abandon wrote:
That's just the thing, you are not given permission to deep strike, ...

Yes you are. You're told to place the models using the deep strike rules.

The deep strike rules detail how to perform a deep strike. Ergo, placing the models using those rules is deep striking.

Yes, you are only permitted to place them using the DS rules, none of the others apply.

Premise 1: Per Gate of Infinity (p146), the unit "arrives using the rules for Deep Strike."
Premise 2: The rules for Deep Strike are on page 36, and contain a Bold headed section titled "Arriving by Deep Strike", which has six paragraphs of rules following, including some restrictions on subsequent actions.
Conclusion: A unit Using Gate of Infinity follows all the rules for "Arriving by Deep Strike", unless otherwise specified.

Question: Does Gate of Infinity specify that any of the rules for "Arriving by Deep Strike" do not apply?
Answer: No.

 Abandon wrote:
Yes, you are only permitted to place them using the DS rules, none of the others apply.

What does Deep Striking do other than provide a way of placing models on the board?

 Mannahnin wrote:
Premise 1: Per Gate of Infinity (p146), the unit "arrives using the rules for Deep Strike."
Premise 2: The rules for Deep Strike are on page 36, and contain a Bold headed section titled "Arriving by Deep Strike", which has six paragraphs of rules following, including some restrictions on subsequent actions.
Conclusion: A unit Using Gate of Infinity follows all the rules for "Arriving by Deep Strike", unless otherwise specified.

Question: Does Gate of Infinity specify that any of the rules for "Arriving by Deep Strike" do not apply?
Answer: No.

The bullet rules and the mishap table in that section are the only parts in that section about the actual arrival. The rest of the section is about the limitations that deep striking units have placed on them. Hence if you are using the DS arrival rules without actually deep striking, they do not apply.

Abandon wrote:
The bullet rules and the mishap table in that section are the only parts in that section about the actual arrival. The rest of the section is about the limitations that deep striking units have placed on them. Hence if you are using the DS arrival rules without actually deep striking, they do not apply.

There is no such thing as Deep Strike 'arrival' rules. There are simply the rules for Deep Strike.

You've created a magical distinction whose limitations cannot be definitively backed up in any logical way except you saying that X rules DO apply and Y rules don't apply.

The reality is, there are MANY situations of units that arrive using Deep Strike that aren't in reserve at the time, and in all these cases, the units are indeed treated as having arrived via Deep Strike.

Abandon wrote:Gate of infinity states the unit "immediately arrives using the rules for Deep Strike"

Deep Strike says "In the Movement phase during which they arrive, deep striking units may not move any further ... In that turn's Shooting phase, these units can fire (or Run) as normal, and obviously count as having moved ... In that turn's Assault phase, however, these units cannot charge"

Since the unit is not actually deep striking or even coming in from reserve does that mean they are free to move, shoot and charge as normal? I mean, it does not say it's a Deep Strike or that it counts as one and the drawbacks specifically apply to units that Deep Strike. so... opinions on RAW?

Here in your original post, you have even misquoted the rules! That's not even what the rules for Gate of Infinity actually say!

And later on in the GoI rules the text reads:

"If the deep strike attempt scatters and a double is rolled..."


How precisely is the unit not arriving via Deep Strike if they are making a Deep Strike attempt?

It is because we are not told to use the 'arriving by deep strike rules'. We are told to use "the rules for Deep Strike" which include reserve rules and 'who can deep strike', etc so right off we have to determine which Deep Strike rules apply to GoI and which do not.

1."arrives using the rules for Deep Strike"
and
2."arrives by the Deep Strike special rule"

...do not mean the same thing to me.... Perhaps I'm the only one...

1. You do something that shares some rules with DS
2. You use DS

... and that is exactly what my copy of the book says pg. 422

As far as the 'deep strike attempt', what else do you want them to call the model placement and scatter roll outlined in the DS rules?

 Abandon wrote:
It is because we are not told to use the 'arriving by deep strike rules'. We are told to use "the rules for Deep Strike" which include reserve rules and 'who can deep strike', etc so right off we have to determine which Deep Strike rules apply to GoI and which do not.

1."arrives using the rules for Deep Strike"
and
2."arrives by the Deep Strike special rule"

...do not mean the same thing to me.... Perhaps I'm the only one...

1. You do something that shares some rules with DS
2. You use DS

... and that is exactly what my copy of the book says pg. 422

As far as the 'deep strike attempt', what else do you want them to call the model placement and scatter roll outlined in the DS rules?

Page 422? What Space Marine Codex are you using?

The rules are on page 57 of the SM codex, or page 153 of the ipad version.

Unlike what you said in your original post:

 Abandon wrote:
Gate of infinity states the unit "immediately arrives using the rules for Deep Strike"

The rules ACTUALLY say:

This power is used at the beginning of the Librarian's Movement phase. The Librarian, and any unit he is with, are removed from the tabletop and immediately placed back together anywhere within 24" using the deep strike rules."

So they are not 'arriving' using Deep Stirke, they are placed within 24" using the deep strike rules, which means they deep strike.

The thing you're missing is that if the rules say that an attack is resolved using the rules for shooting (for example), then ALL the rules for shooting apply to that attack, even if those rules happen to be found in other places outside of the shooting section of the rulebook. So say you had an attack that is resolved using the rules for shooting, then if you fired at a transport and destroyed it, spilling the unit inside, that unit would still count as having 'shot' at that transport, even though they were just making an attack that was using the rules for shooting...because one of the rules for shooting (which happens to be found in the vehicle section) is that if a unit shoots at a transport then the firing unit can then assault the contents.

In previous editions of the game, GW has had several rulings in their FAQs covering psychic powers and wargear that remove a unit form the table and then allow them to immediately Deep Strike. In ALL cases, they've always ruled that the unit counts as moving, which is why they can't use such abilities to leave close combat (unless specified otherwise) and can not use such abilities if the unit is falling back (as the unit has to make a fall back move instead of this specialty move).

When you say:

1."arrives using the rules for Deep Strike"
and
2."arrives by the Deep Strike special rule"

This is where you are wrong. In the real world, if 'Deep Strike' was something, then you'd be right. But in a GAME arriving via the Deep Strike special rule or arriving via the rules for Deep Strike are two ways of saying the same thing...as 'Deep Strike' IS the sum of its rules. There is no such thing as Deep Strike except for its rules.

Yak, Gate of Infinity is also a power in the Telekinesis discipline.

I'll put it this way, you can make a normal move per the movement rules. You can move per the movement rules in assault. You cannot not making a normal move during assault.

Even in 40k, using the rules for something is not that same as doing that thing.

 Abandon wrote:
Even in 40k, using the rules for something is not that same as doing that thing.

Aye, like the argument guys with Fast/OT transports tried back in 5th when they didn't like passengers being unable to shoot if the vehicle moved over 6''. Since it "has no specified firepoints" it's not bound by the restrictions under Firepoints. Sadly they didn't manage to come up with any text to tell them when and how they were allowed to shoot if they didn't use the parts of Firepoints that said something about it.

Same here - if you're told to place the squad using Deep Strike rules and it doesn't exempt you from the effects you can't ignore them. Necron Monolith portal also places the squad "as if Disembarking" - would you be OK with the necron player moving as normal after that since he wasn't actually disembarking, just using the rules for it? GW writes crappy rules with not-too-watertight wordings but in general they don't switch one word in order to suddenly allow you something nice, they tell you you can have something nice straight up.