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Okay, I have looked around and can't seem to find this anywhere.
A tervigon casts "iron armor" on itself and becomes toughness 9. Suddenly nothing in my CSM army can touch it. It and a Hive Tyrant also with the same power wipe out my list.
Now I'm not calling "cheese" because I think there are several ways to counter this. Also the ability is not inherent so also not unfair.

One of the ideas I came up with is to arm my Nurgle chaos lord with the Black Mace instead of Burning Brand. He has a jump pack and can do Hammer of Wrath attacks.
Hammer of Wrath attacks take place on init 10 at the models unmodified strength. Black Mace wounds on a 2+ and if it is not saved the enemy model is removed as a casualty.
Is this an effective monster-killer or am I reading it wrong? All is predicated on the hope that the initial wound is not countered by an armor save.
Here's where GW's infamously ambiguous wording comes into play; (page 37, BRB)
"one additional attack that hits automatically and is resolved at the model's unmodified strength with an AP of -." It could be argued that this means an attack without using the model's wargear. But it could also be argued that the Black Mace is his melee weapon and doesn't violate the restrictions above and, therefore, can be used.

The second question is regarding the"Eternal Warrior" rule. The curse of the Black Mace does not say it causes instant death, it just says the model is removed as a casualty.
What do you think?

The Faq has dealt with that. Hammer of wrath doesn't get the benefit of wargear.


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Also the black mace to kill you required that the mace wounds you.
As the mace isn't ID then you can kill an eternal warrior.

In answer to your use of any weapons or wargear look at the faq page 5.

Cursed is not Instant Death.

Can. You give me directions to the FAQ? (Can't find it for some reason)


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Found it. So HoW is just a punch in the face?

If you played Space Marine, it's that bit when you bomb out o the sky and blast everyone around you out of the way.

So Black Mace is not so great. First the tervigon must fail a 3+ armor save, then, if wounded, makes a toughness check. If that is failed (not likely with toughness 9) THEN it is removed as a casualty.

Anyone have any ideas for countering Tervigons? (uh, with CSM)

So HoW is just a punch in the face?

Pretty much.. I think they word it as the force of the impact of the assailant as they ram/drop into combat, rather than an actual combat move.

It is kinda wonky though;

Marine HoW: S4

Eldar Jetbike Warlock HoW: S3

Daemon Prince HoW: S6

Wraithlord HoW: S10


Edit: How to kill Tervigons with CSM? Well fight fire with fire and Black Mace Smash Attack it with a DP.

 liturgies of blood wrote:
If you played Space Marine, it's that bit when you bomb out o the sky and blast everyone around you out of the way.

Love that game BTW.

 StormK wrote:
So Black Mace is not so great. First the tervigon must fail a 3+ armor save, then, if wounded, makes a toughness check. If that is failed (not likely with toughness 9) THEN it is removed as a casualty.

Anyone have any ideas for countering Tervigons? (uh, with CSM)

Shoot them with heavy weapons, Lascannons, meltas, plasmas. You'll do better at wounding and it will eliminate armor saves.

I've always seen the Hammer attack as a shoulder block or front kick.

 Gravmyr wrote:
I've always seen the Hammer attack as a shoulder block or front kick.

My daughter makes HoW attacks when she runs at me with a hug....

I killed a Tervigon with Ahriman's Force Staff, he was iron-armed at the time himself (which makes him S7 to S9, hitting at initiative and instakilling with his staff, take that FnP)

 StormK wrote:
So Black Mace is not so great. First the tervigon must fail a 3+ armor save, then, if wounded, makes a toughness check. If that is failed (not likely with toughness 9) THEN it is removed as a casualty.

Anyone have any ideas for countering Tervigons? (uh, with CSM)

Unless you put it on a DP then its AP2 and you kill those monsters with ease.

^this

Giving it to a DP negates the only real downside to the Black Mace, its AP4.

But on a model with Smash all melee attacks are AP2, so the mace will ignore all armor saves now. Which is nasty with its other rules.

 StormK wrote:
So Black Mace is not so great. First the tervigon must fail a 3+ armor save, then, if wounded, makes a toughness check. If that is failed (not likely with toughness 9) THEN it is removed as a casualty.

A tervigon failing a Toughness test at Toughness 9 has the same chance (1 in 6) as A tervigon at normal toughness.

 Happyjew wrote:

 StormK wrote:
So Black Mace is not so great. First the tervigon must fail a 3+ armor save, then, if wounded, makes a toughness check. If that is failed (not likely with toughness 9) THEN it is removed as a casualty.

A tervigon failing a Toughness test at Toughness 9 has the same chance (1 in 6) as A tervigon at normal toughness.

And exactly the same chance as A tervigon that has been affected by enfeeble failing a Toughness test. (1 in 6)

Correct me if I'm wrong but how can the black mace instakill a T9 tervigon with eternal warrior? Didn't think the mace was instakill either. Also, how can a force weapon insta kill an EW tervigon?

"I killed a Tervigon with Ahriman's Force Staff, he was iron-armed at the time himself (which makes him S7 to S9, hitting at initiative and instakilling with his staff, take that FnP)"

Am I missing something?

Black Mace causes a Toughness test. Regardless of Toughness a natural roll of 6 fails. If the test is failed the model is removed as a casualty. EW only protects against ID. A force weapon cannot ID a model with EW. Though you could deal enough Wounds to knock it down to 0 Wounds.

Skycapt44 - Ahriman was ironarmed, so was stronger (S4 - S6 due to Mace, S7 - S9 due to Iron Arm)

Remember that Iron Arm needs to be recast each turn, and it's +D3 Toughness, so it won't always be T9 in the end. Taking the Black Mace is a good way to Wound it, and a Daemon Prince will at least tarpit the thing if not put it down, but I wouldn't rely on Cursed to kill it in one as it's quite unlikely.

Instead, you would be better off looking at poisoned attacks such as from Plaguemarines or allied Nurgle Daemons or Dark Eldar which will always have the same chance to Wound. I can't see any right now, but if you can get a reasonably reliable method of reducing its Leadership it has a better chance of failing the Psychic test as well.

The DP has a fairly decent chance of killing the Trygon in one go.

He hits first, hitting on 3+, wounding on 2+ with no saves. Trygon hits on 4s, wounding on 3s(IIRC), and the DP gets a 5+ invuln. Then the Trygon has a 16% chance of just instantly dying.

And the second round the DP should finish the Trygon off before it swings.

 Grey Templar wrote:
The DP has a fairly decent chance of killing the Trygon in one go.

He hits first, hitting on 3+, wounding on 2+ with no saves. Trygon hits on 4s, wounding on 3s(IIRC), and the DP gets a 5+ invuln. Then the Trygon has a 16% chance of just instantly dying.

And the second round the DP should finish the Trygon off before it swings.

you've 8-12 attacks (discouting a 1 if you roll that you're dead) hitting on 3 wounding on 2+ decent chance on killing in one turn (on average 5.2777 wounds).

He hits you back on 5+ but wounds on 2+ and assuming he has crushing claws (because only an idiot wouldn't) he has 2+ d3 attacks. He does on average 0.74 wounds to you but he does cause ID. So its actually a fairly even fight. You are both pretty likely to kill each other in a singld round. DP goes first and is almost guaranteed to get the job done in 2 rounds.

Trygons can't have Crushing Claws.

Trygons hit on 4s but reroll misses.
4 Smash attacks, 3 hit, 2 wound, 1 dead Prince on the charge. Add an extra ID wound if the Trygon failed IB.
3 Smash attacks, 2 hit, 2 wound, 1 dead Prince if charged.

Tervigons are hard to calculate because of all the Psyker buffs that could be involved.

Sorry thought we were talking about Tervigons as we were talking about Ironarm....

Grey Templar brought up Trygons.

We'll assume that the Tervigon only has FNP and IWND because of Endurance.

10 attacks, 7 hit, 6 wounds, 4 applied after FNP.
4 attacks back, 1 hit, 1 wound, unlikely to save, dead Prince.

Warp Speed makes it even more likely for the prince to die, and if the Prince rolls a 1 for the demon weapon he pops like a zit even to an unbuffed Tervigon (4 attacks, 3 hit, 3 wounds, pop goes the Prince).

Sorry, I read Trygon when it was actually Tervigon.

Once I realised Hammer of Wrath doesn't use wargear that whole tactic with the Black Mace went out the window. Plague marines are the way to go I think...




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I am considering allying w/ Skarbrand and daemonettes.

 StormK wrote:
So Black Mace is not so great. First the tervigon must fail a 3+ armor save, then, if wounded, makes a toughness check. If that is failed (not likely with toughness 9) THEN it is removed as a casualty.

Anyone have any ideas for countering Tervigons? (uh, with CSM)

high str weapons and lots of them, depending on the synergy youd get with what you have, noise marines w heavy weapons, obliterators, force weapons on models with good str,

that black mace is AP 3 no? wounding on 2+? thats actually pretty good for taking down monstrous creatures with only a 3+ save, you just need a good # of attacks with it, but maybe im not clear on the black mace rules, i dont have that codex at hand atm

you know, or just High strength weaponry?

I run Nidzilla and i use 2 Tervigons and 2 Flyrants all the time. Making them toughness 9 doesn't happen often.


But when it does, they are nigh unkillable. So just weather the storm, and shoot 'em with any Lascannons or melta you have on offer...