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For all you DA players out there, what would you recommend? A Dark Talon of Nephilim Jets?

Neither.

Is an allied vendetta or stormtalon an option?

The DA flyers arn't no brainer choices, unfortunately, but the nephilim is a great anti-infantry and light armor machine and is often overlooked due to the internet wisdom hate.

The Nephilim isn't terrible when viewed in a vacuum. However, when a Vendetta costs what it does, the Nephilim pales in comparison. I really wish they'd have adjusted the Vendetta's points in the skies of whatever book, its just clearly better than the alternatives at this point.

It is true, you shouldn't view it in a vacuum

what is the rest of your army like? what holes need filling and will a flyer fix it?

The Fighter dosn't really do much though with a single twinlinked las cannon could be nice against other fliers or rear vehicle armour (kinda)
and black sword missiles seem pointless. but if you fight against alot of carapace armor it might be worth it to take one with the mega bolter and eat squads one at a time.

the Talon has some fun tricks like the rift cannon, but mostly fills the roll of supporting and disrupting.

The key to the Dark Talon seems to be running it in a Land Raider Banner Squad list. Run 2 and keep them within 6" of the Land Raider for two turns (which I think you should be able to do, running them up its respective flanks), and they will be putting out more anti infantry firepower then a Helldrake can even dream about. Throw in a Dark Shroud to keep that team of vehicles in tact, and I see some potential.

Nephilim I'm not as hot about. It's got duality, but it seems to pay a hefty price for it.

Dogstar34 wrote:
The Nephilim isn't terrible when viewed in a vacuum. However, when a Vendetta costs what it does, the Nephilim pales in comparison. I really wish they'd have adjusted the Vendetta's points in the skies of whatever book, its just clearly better than the alternatives at this point.

Is that the one that cost 20pts less than a storm raven with less armor, hull pts, ap weapons, and transport capacity or is that the one that costs 40pts less than a storm raven with less than a storm raven with less armor, hull pts, ap weapons, and transport capacity?

ally in a storm raven.

I play against Nids alot so if I put the mega bolter on the Jet fighter, I could knock the tails off Gaunts(A 6+ Armour Save and only T3 against Weapon strength 6 meaning ID)
. Blacksword missiles might be useful for killing Genestealers.

Depending on the type of Nid army you face, you may want to look at the Dark Talon. -3 WS and Init from the stasis bomb would help immensely when clearing out large termagaunt squads in assault (you'd hit automatically and there would be no retaliation) and could disrupt large genestealer units. Blind also works well against the shooty gaunt units too.

The Nephilim is the more well rounded of the two, but like others have said, they are both a bit overcosted by about 20 points. Still, allies may not be a real option because of the tax, so it might be best to use what you got.

For purely "Nids I'd say the Nephilim with the mega bolter, 8 S6AP4 and 3 TLHBs per turn will gut large squads and have a decent chance to put some wounds on the MCs. If you're adding in the flyer because of Flyrants then the TLLC is something to consider, less shots, but easier to wound and AP2. Against "Nids you lose the benefit of Unrelenting Hunter since it's purely an anti-vehicle ability.

The Dark Talon is pretty dakka, even more if you can get it within 6" of the banner, but you really have to Hover to have it support the gunline and hovering flyers are giant targets.

Neither.

Built it with a megabolter and twin-linked lascannon and use it as an Avenger Strike Fighter.

 Furyou Miko wrote:
Neither.

Built it with a megabolter and twin-linked lascannon and use it as an Avenger Strike Fighter.

Err... how?
Since the Nephilim may replace the lascannon with the megabolter... how on Imperium could you install both of them?

Split the lascannons up and either affix them to the wings or either side of the bolt cannon. They fit surprisingly well there.

 Kerrathyr wrote:

Err... how?
Since the Nephilim may replace the lascannon with the megabolter... how on Imperium could you install both of them?

You put the lascannons where the heavy bolters would go. Then you have missiles under the wings. (Not actual tactical advice, I'm not sure if the missiles Avenger can take are any good.)

Hmm... It seems you also need to put a heavy stubber somewhere.

The heavy stabber can be done by cutting "grooves" into the side near the nose, like the real aircraft lightning, simple enough.

Would you say that both DA exclusive fliers are plain bad units or just bad in comparison to e.g. a Vendetta?
What about the Forgeworld fliers, are they better?

DA a flyers are too expensive, but on the other hand most other things on the book are fairly priced. You can afford to include one slightly overpriced flyer. Spamming them of course is a bad idea.

 Crimson wrote:
You put the lascannons where the heavy bolters would go. Then you have missiles under the wings. (Not actual tactical advice, I'm not sure if the missiles Avenger can take are any good.)

Hmm... It seems you also need to put a heavy stubber somewhere.

Ok, this (kind of) "solves" the logistics of where to mount both, but there is still the tiny problem that having both tl-lascannon and avenger mega bolter is not possible, according to the rules
(codex says you can substitute one for another, not add them up)... this was my "how" question

 Kerrathyr wrote:
Ok, this (kind of) "solves" the logistics of where to mount both, but there is still the tiny problem that having both tl-lascannon and avenger mega bolter is not possible, according to the rules
(codex says you can substitute one for another, not add them up)... this was my "how" question

The advice was to alter the model so you can count it as an Avenger fighter-bomber, an entirely separate unit (one that is similar in concept, but with rules that don't suck): http://www.forgeworld.co.uk/Warhammer-40000/Imperial_Navy/AVENGER_STRIKE_FIGHTER.html

 buddha wrote:
Is an allied vendetta or stormtalon an option?

The DA flyers arn't no brainer choices, unfortunately, but the nephilim is a great anti-infantry and light armor machine and is often overlooked due to the internet wisdom hate.

It's overlooked because even in an anti-infantry/light vehicle mode it's still overpriced. For twenty points less you could take a Dakka Predator and a Whirlwind (or three dual HB Land Speeders, etc). That's not "internet wisdom hate" either, the Nephilim is over-cost regardless of the role.

 Brock79 wrote:

 buddha wrote:
Is an allied vendetta or stormtalon an option?

The DA flyers arn't no brainer choices, unfortunately, but the nephilim is a great anti-infantry and light armor machine and is often overlooked due to the internet wisdom hate.

It's overlooked because even in an anti-infantry/light vehicle mode it's still overpriced. For twenty points less you could take a Dakka Predator and a Whirlwind (or three dual HB Land Speeders, etc). That's not "internet wisdom hate" either, the Nephilim is over-cost regardless of the role.

Thats true, but the Flier is far more manoeuvrable, and can only reliably be hit by anti-air. It also has better armour and HP than the Speeders.
I only use my Nephilim because I love the model. Its not the best flier out there, it may even be one of the worst. But I have found it surprisingly useful and it has served me well thus far and has yet to be shot down.

(It just took me a solid 15 attempts to spell 'manoeuvrable'. Christ I hate that word)

 HerbaciousT wrote:

 Brock79 wrote:

 buddha wrote:
Is an allied vendetta or stormtalon an option?

The DA flyers arn't no brainer choices, unfortunately, but the nephilim is a great anti-infantry and light armor machine and is often overlooked due to the internet wisdom hate.

It's overlooked because even in an anti-infantry/light vehicle mode it's still overpriced. For twenty points less you could take a Dakka Predator and a Whirlwind (or three dual HB Land Speeders, etc). That's not "internet wisdom hate" either, the Nephilim is over-cost regardless of the role.

Thats true, but the Flier is far more manoeuvrable, and can only reliably be hit by anti-air. It also has better armour and HP than the Speeders.

I do agree with that assessment, however it's also only one model and it won't be on the table until turn 2 at the earliest and potentially not until later, while your other options are on the board impacting the game. I'd like to field one as I like the model, but it's current point cost and load-out just don't work. It's a shame, I like the models and would love to field my codex flyer, but ugh, not at 180 points.

 Brock79 wrote:

I do agree with that assessment, however it's also only one model and it won't be on the table until turn 2 at the earliest and potentially not until later, while your other options are on the board impacting the game. I'd like to field one as I like the model, but it's current point cost and load-out just don't work. It's a shame, I like the models and would love to field my codex flyer, but ugh, not at 180 points.

What you think would be a fair price for it? (Let's compare it to Stormtalon instead of Vendetta, though.) I think the extra hull point and weapon slot are certainly worth something. Too bad the missiles are kinda rubbish (I don't understand why they did just not give it Skyhammers. And why every bloody army needs to have their own uniquely named missiles anyway.)

Steelmage99 wrote:
Neither.

This is correct. Both are terrible.

I ran a pair of Fighters in a game last night and they did rather well. Like a good portion of units in the DA codex, including the Dark Talon, they work best when supporting other units. In my game I was able to dispatch of a unit of 5 scout snipers running to an objective thanks to the AP4 of its weapons and the BS5 from its Strafing Run special rule. I also took out a Vindicator and harassed his Veteran squads to support a charge from my Deathwing Terminators. I expected the Fighters to go down quick but all he had to effectively attack them was a Stormtalon. It chased my Fighters around the board and shot them up pretty good but wasnt able to take them down thanks to the 3 HP and a few good Junk saves. In a game with more anti-flyer support I see them going down rather easily even with Jink. Its all in how you use them. When comparing efficiency in point costs to other flyers they may not be at the top of the list but it shouldnt dissuade someone from trying them out and seeing if they complement their strategy. Plus, I really like the models and thats 1/3 of the reason I play the game.

BluesMetal wrote:
I ran a pair of Fighters in a game last night and they did rather well. Like a good portion of units in the DA codex, including the Dark Talon, they work best when supporting other units. In my game I was able to dispatch of a unit of 5 scout snipers running to an objective thanks to the AP4 of its weapons and the BS5 from its Strafing Run special rule. I also took out a Vindicator and harassed his Veteran squads to support a charge from my Deathwing Terminators. I expected the Fighters to go down quick but all he had to effectively attack them was a Stormtalon. It chased my Fighters around the board and shot them up pretty good but wasnt able to take them down thanks to the 3 HP and a few good Junk saves. In a game with more anti-flyer support I see them going down rather easily even with Jink. Its all in how you use them. When comparing efficiency in point costs to other flyers they may not be at the top of the list but it shouldnt dissuade someone from trying them out and seeing if they complement their strategy. Plus, I really like the models and thats 1/3 of the reason I play the game.

So in an optimal match up the two of them got about half their points back....

You can't look at the points value they "make up" alone. You need to take in how much shooting they drew instead of shooting at your scoring units, how it makes your opponent re-think deployment and positioning in game, etc.

I like the idea of using the jet fighter and do plan on getting one in the future. It isn't the best for AA, but for anti-infantry I think it would be fantastic with such a large volume of shots.

Viewed in a vacuum.

The Nephilim offers alot more than the Dark Talon even with the 20 point premium.

2 Hurricane Bolters, a S 5 blast and S3 large blast with modifiers or TL S9, 3 TL S5 and 2 S6 missiles is going to do alot more for you. Left with the Lascannon it can hold its own in air-to-air. Arm it with the Avenger and it will do well as an anti-personnel vehicle...

The hard part is it is definitely worth more than any ork flyer but it is underwhelming in comparison to a valkyrie, vendetta or helldrake.

I would leave it with the lascannon as then it can take out the heavy flyers, vehicles and MC whereas the AVenger, Heavy Bolters and missiles are going to be hard pressed to ever get its point value back either in casaualties caused or enemy fire concentrated on it.

IMHO I think that as new codices come out the cost of fliers will rocket, making them the "Should I include a land raider or 2 more troops" kind of option. I think the author of the DA dex realised how potent fliers CAN be. From what I have seen this is similar to the helldrake, yeh it's good but it DOES take up some points and has a couple of tricks in it's bag but I see them get bought down pretty quick.

The vendetta as a skimmer at 130 was alright as it was a skimmer, but I think whack 100 more points on it's cost and NOW it's a flier.

IMO though the Neph is a beast and the Dark Talon I actually forgot what it was as I was skimming through the forum so I think that says it all.

tgf wrote:

BluesMetal wrote:
I ran a pair of Fighters in a game last night and they did rather well. Like a good portion of units in the DA codex, including the Dark Talon, they work best when supporting other units. In my game I was able to dispatch of a unit of 5 scout snipers running to an objective thanks to the AP4 of its weapons and the BS5 from its Strafing Run special rule. I also took out a Vindicator and harassed his Veteran squads to support a charge from my Deathwing Terminators. I expected the Fighters to go down quick but all he had to effectively attack them was a Stormtalon. It chased my Fighters around the board and shot them up pretty good but wasnt able to take them down thanks to the 3 HP and a few good Junk saves. In a game with more anti-flyer support I see them going down rather easily even with Jink. Its all in how you use them. When comparing efficiency in point costs to other flyers they may not be at the top of the list but it shouldnt dissuade someone from trying them out and seeing if they complement their strategy. Plus, I really like the models and thats 1/3 of the reason I play the game.

So in an optimal match up the two of them got about half their points back....

Agreed, but sometimes it's not just a single unit getting its points back that’s important. If that unit only eliminates 50% of its points worth on the table but provides support for another key unit to get 150% of its points back, it can work out. His flyer spent three turns going after my Fighters instead of my key scoring troops so that in itself let me capture three objectives with minimal loss. I was later blown to bits off of two of those objectives due to plasma and flamers and eventually lost the game but it was only by an objectives worth of points. I still felt like the flyers did well and I feel the more I play with them the better I will be able to utilize them.