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Since barrage weapons use the center of the template when determining cover saves, do they negate the shrouding granted by the Tau disruption pods?

Do the pods use the distance to the Firing UNit or the distance from the shot?

Disruption Pod:

“A vehicle with a disruption pod has the Shrouded specialrule against any weapons firing from more than 12" away"

but

Barrage weapons:

"Always assume the shot is coming from the centre of the blast marker, instead of from the firing model."

From my understanding....it's that the disruption pods don't work against barrage weapons, but..my friend disagrees.

Anything that removes cover removes the benefit of the disruption pod.

http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/0/508110.page

This thread outlines the argument for and against, along with a nifty poll.

Basically, it comes down to if "shot comes from" equals "firing unit/weapons fired" I personally do not think they do, as I do not see permission for you to measure distance from the shot, but only to use it to determine cover/count as the shot having coming from that direction when removing models. Shrouded is not a cover save, it is a USR that grants one, so you do not use the position of the shot to determine if the devilfish gets shrouded or not, you use the distance from the firing unit.

Lungpickle wrote:
Anything that removes cover removes the benefit of the disruption pod.

Barrage does not inherently remove cover

I would say it does ignore the Disruption Pods.

Coming from the center hole implies not only direction, but also distance IMO.

Normally a shot comes from the shooter. With barrage its coming from the center. Seems like a clear distance reduction to me.

 Grey Templar wrote:
I would say it does ignore the Disruption Pods.

Coming from the center hole implies not only direction, but also distance IMO.

Normally a shot comes from the shooter. With barrage its coming from the center. Seems like a clear distance reduction to me.

But if you check the rule, it says only to count the shot as coming from the hole for two reasons, and distance is not one of them

You use the hole to determine cover. In this case the distance is important regarding cover. So the hole would count IMO.

 Grey Templar wrote:
You use the hole to determine cover. In this case the distance is important regarding cover. So the hole would count IMO.

Shrouding is not cover, its a USR that grants cover, distance is used here to determine if the devilfish has a USR, which you do not use the hole for.

Actually shrouding just improves cover saves. If you don't currently have one then you receive a 5+ in the open.

Anyway, I'm in the camp here that barrage weapons would not negate shrouding/stealth. The mention of barrage weapons under artillery kinda solidifies this more for me -

"When firing the guns, there must be
a line of sight to the target from both
the gun model and the crewman firing
it (unless they are Barrage weapons, of
course). Ranges are measured from the
barrel on the gun model."

Barrage weapons only use the hole to determine the direction of the shot and wound allocation, it does not change the range the shot came from.

"Always assume the shot is coming from the centre of the blast marker, instead of from the firing model." pg 34

That is why I say it negate the shrouded, cause technically the "shot" is not coming from over 12" away, its from the centre.

Hazard30 wrote:
"Always assume the shot is coming from the centre of the blast marker, instead of from the firing model." pg 34

That is why I say it negate the shrouded, cause technically the "shot" is not coming from over 12" away, its from the centre.

You're only giving half of the sentence

"To determine weather a unit wounded by a Barrage weapon is allowed a cover save, and when determining Wound allocation,always assume the shot is coming from the centre of the blast marker, instead of from the firing model."

You always treat it as coming from the center to determine wound allocation and if a unit is in cover, you do not use it to judge distance or determine if a unit benefits from a USR

If you are assessing cover saves, then you assess them as if the show was "coming from the centre of the blast marker, instead of from the firing model."

Therefore, since the center of the marker is under 12" away the pods provide nothing.

Except the gaining of Shrouded has nothing to do with where the shot is assumed to be coming from. Only from where the weapon that fired it is.

Disruption pods say “A vehicle with a disruption pod has the Shrouded special rule against any weapons firing from more than 12" away.” 40k FaQ

The weapon is fired from the center of the marker, therefore the vehicle does not gain shrouded.

No the weapon is fired from wherever the weapon is fired. The shot is treated as coming from the centre of the blast marker for wound allocations and determining cover.

All you're doing is drawing LOS from the center of the marker, not range.

 Kevin949 wrote:
All you're doing is drawing LOS from the center of the marker, not range.

“A vehicle with a disruption pod has the Shrouded special rule against any weapons firing from more than 12" away.” 40k FaQ

Shots come from firing models, and that is usually where you measure range and Line of Sight to.

In the case of Barrage the shot is coming from the center of the marker, therefore anything that has to do with cover saves uses the center as the origin of the shot. Therefore the shot is not coming from more than 12 inches away.

But read the thread, decide with your group how to play it, or follow the poll, the choice is yours until an FaQ comes out.

The shot may come from the center of the marker though only to determine cover, but The range to the firing unit/model/person with the gun remains the same.

The weapon that fired the blast is still on the model X distance away.
Is the blast marker a weapon? no

Do you ever get permission to measure to a blast marker? nope.

How do you measure distances between units? closest base to closest base. is the blast marker on a base? nope.

When you read through determining cover saves, does range have any affect on cover saves? nope.

For shroud, how do you know if you use the granted 5+ cover save or if it improves your cover save? you first determine cover if any, see above.

so yes, he gets shroud.

What you posted...meant absolutely nothing in a game of pre-established rules.

You are using real-world logic...in a game that essentially has none.

*regardless, I showed my friend this thread and he agrees with me....the rules as written says the shot comes from the centre and therefore he does not get shrouded*

Hazard30 wrote:
What you posted...meant absolutely nothing in a game of pre-established rules.

You are using real-world logic...in a game that essentially has none.

*regardless, I showed my friend this thread and he agrees with me....the rules as written says the shot comes from the centre and therefore he does not get shrouded*

Everything I stated was rules as written, but feel free to house rule it any way you want.

Range is determined in Step 2 of the shooting sequence. Saves are taken in step 5. Once Shrouded has been attached to the target, there is not rule that removes it.

 DeathReaper wrote:

 Kevin949 wrote:
All you're doing is drawing LOS from the center of the marker, not range.

“A vehicle with a disruption pod has the Shrouded special rule against any weapons firing from more than 12" away.” 40k FaQ

Shots come from firing models, and that is usually where you measure range and Line of Sight to.

In the case of Barrage the shot is coming from the center of the marker, therefore anything that has to do with cover saves uses the center as the origin of the shot. Therefore the shot is not coming from more than 12 inches away.

But read the thread, decide with your group how to play it, or follow the poll, the choice is yours until an FaQ comes out.

I disagree as the rules for firing artillery, as an example, do indeed split the two (LOS and Range) as separate ordeals, with even a mention of barrage weapons in only the LOS part.

sirlynchmob wrote:
The shot may come from the center of the marker though only to determine cover.

And disruption Pods give a cover save...

So no shrouded, since the shot is not coming from more than 12 inches away.

Bottom line is read the thread posted, decide with your group how to play it, or follow the poll, the choice is yours until an FaQ comes out.

 DeathReaper wrote:

And disruption Pods give a cover save...

So no shrouded, since the shot is not coming from more than 12 inches away.

You keep saying that, like the barrage rules say that the shot is coming from the center of the blast, when they DO NOT SAY THAT.

Barrage weapons only count as coming from the center of the blast in two distinct cases:

"To determine weather a unit wounded by a Barrage weapon is allowed a cover save, and when determining Wound allocation, always assume the shot is coming from the centre of the blast marker, instead of from the firing model."


So in those two cases ONLY, do you consider the shot as coming from the center of the blast. Range, is not expressed as something that is determined from the center of the blast and therefore Disruption Pods (which are based upon range) use the standard rules for range.

Its the same reason barrage weapons don't ignore the rules for night fighting either...because there is simply no logical support to make the assumption that range is determined from the center of the blast because the barrage rules only cover two distinct situations where that rule applies (and range is not one of them).

 DeathReaper wrote:

sirlynchmob wrote:
The shot may come from the center of the marker though only to determine cover.

And disruption Pods give a cover save...

So no shrouded, since the shot is not coming from more than 12 inches away.

Bottom line is read the thread posted, decide with your group how to play it, or follow the poll, the choice is yours until an FaQ comes out.

And what does range have to do with determining cover in any other situation? nothing
If two models are 20" apart with no special rules does that help with determining cover? No, range is not a factor in cover saves.
where is shroud/stealth mentioned during determining cover? they're not.

It's not the distance between the shot and the target being measured, its the distance from the firing model with the gun, and that never changes. Then after you've determined if they have a cover save, you can either adjust it, or grant one.

 Kevin949 wrote:
All you're doing is drawing LOS from the center of the marker, not range.

I disagree. If they say the shot is coming from the center of the blast marker, then it can't also be coming from the weapon that fired it... I think someone even posted the rule that says for purposes of determining cover, you use the center of the blast marker... Seems pretty straight forward? I'm not really seeing much wiggle room so I'm in DR's camp on this...

Edit: Yak- As greatergoodjones quoted- "To determine weather a unit wounded by a Barrage weapon is allowed a cover save, and when determining Wound allocation,always assume the shot is coming from the centre of the blast marker, instead of from the firing model" pg 34

Maybe I'm dense, but I read that to mean when determining whether a unit (Disruption Pod unit) is allowed a cover save by a Barrage weapon, ALWAYS assume the shot is coming from the center of the blast marker instead of from the firing model. Always means always and there are no exceptions... At least that is how I understand the definition of the word...

Yes, but that isnt what is at question here, if you had understood the thread

The shot may come from the centre of the blast, but does that mean the Firing Unit has changed?

No it doesn't mean the firing unit has changed, but it does mean that for the determination of cover saves, the shot , in this case, is assumed to have come from a position other than where the firing weapon was on the board (ie the center of the blast marker and NOT the position of the firing weapon). And since I've never seen a legal large blast marker that has a radius > 12", the disruption pod would not grant cover...