Are Knarloc Kroot?

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**Manchu**

I guess I'm really asking two things:

(1) Are Knarloc Kroot in the sense that humans are primates? That is, does the word "Kroot" imply species or a higher taxonomical level, such as order or class?

(2) Are Knarloc Kroot in the sense that Krootox are Kroot, i.e., "shaped" Kroot?

**Furyou Miko**

If 2 then 1, so yes to both as far as I know.

**Manchu**

Appearance-wise, they seem to be related.

**Grey Templar**

I believe so, but like the Kroot Hounds they have gone down a specific path with their genetics to where they have hit a dead end. They can't gain genes from other species anymore because whatever made them Knarloc has used up all the blank space on their DNA.

A full blooded Kroot has a certain amount of genetic space for new genes to be absorbed. It is possible to use up all the space. At which point you are stuck where you are.

**Manchu**

Conversely, the Kroot could have evolved from Knarlocs right?

**Grey Templar**

I doubt it. A land based predator becoming an aboreal one?

**Manchu**

Grey Templar wrote:
A land based predator becoming an aboreal one?

Ahem, dinosaurs ...

**Amaya**

I'm pretty sure the fluff states that Knarlocs are an evolutionary dead end from the baseline Kroot species.

**Grey Templar**

Pretty sure nobody is claiming T-rexs specifically became birds. More like a small dinosaur that could actually climb trees is what became birds.

We are talking about a specific species, not a general calssification.

**KamikazeCanuck**

Yes, they are as much Kroot as the "Kroot" (the foot soldier models). The "real" Kroot is the Kroothawk which doesn't even have a model. All other Kroot are like mutants, for lack of a better term, of that Kroot. Theoritically there could be a Kroot version of anything: Kroot-squids, Kroot-Beavers, Kroot-Octopi. You name it, we can Kroot it!

**Grey Templar**

Amaya wrote:
I'm pretty sure the fluff states that Knarlocs are an evolutionary dead end from the baseline Kroot species.

IIRC that specific passage was talking about Kroothounds, but I think the same idea applies.

Automatically Appended Next Post:

KamikazeCanuck wrote:
Yes, they are as much Kroot as the "Kroot" (the foot soldier models). The "real" Kroot is the Kroothawk which doesn't even have a model. All other Kroot are like mutants, for lack of a better term, of that Kroot. Theoritically there could be a Kroot version of anything: Kroot-squids, Kroot-Beavers, Kroot-Octopi. You name it, we can Kroot it!

Kroothawks are the original? Where does it say that?

**Amaya**

I'm pretty sure that idea applies too all Kroot. Which is pretty awesome. I wish they developed them more. Honestly, you could easily develop hundreds of concepts for Kroot offshoots.

**KamikazeCanuck**

Grey Templar wrote:
Amaya wrote:
I'm pretty sure the fluff states that Knarlocs are an evolutionary dead end from the baseline Kroot species.

IIRC that specific passage was talking about Kroothounds, but I think the same idea applies.

Automatically Appended Next Post:

KamikazeCanuck wrote:
Yes, they are as much Kroot as the "Kroot" (the foot soldier models). The "real" Kroot is the Kroothawk which doesn't even have a model. All other Kroot are like mutants, for lack of a better term, of that Kroot. Theoritically there could be a Kroot version of anything: Kroot-squids, Kroot-Beavers, Kroot-Octopi. You name it, we can Kroot it!

Kroothawks are the original? Where does it say that?

In the codex, but not outright I guess. Kroot revere it as their ancestor and it makes sense because Kroot are quite avian and all carnivorous. Kroot think they come from kroothawks and that's good enough for me.

**Hruotland**

I suppose Option (1) is not applicable because of fundamental differences in the biological composure of the ecoystems. In a system where the transition between species seems so fluid you need other definitions and levels of taxa than in our environment.

**KamikazeCanuck**

Amaya wrote:
I'm pretty sure that idea applies too all Kroot. Which is pretty awesome. I wish they developed them more. Honestly, you could easily develop hundreds of concepts for Kroot offshoots.

Well, they were originally going to be their own faction but then got Tau'd.

I've heard a rumor the new Tau codex will have a lot more Kroot. Enough so you could just have an all Kroot army if you wanted.

**Furyou Miko**

There used to be a Kroot Mercenaries list in Chapter Approved. It's never been updated, so technically it's still legal.

^^ Kroot Vultures were Jump Infantry.

**Amaya**

The Silver Skulls of the Adeptus Astartes encountered Kroot that had assimilated DNA from the Eldar and gained powerful psychic powers, which allowed them to cover themselves in an illusionary disguise that hid their true nature, appearing instead as dark, midnight-blue creatures with smooth skin, long sinewy limbs, clawed fingers, and large amethyst-purple eyes set in a comparatively small, elongated face that came to a triangular point with two nostril slits at the end, no visible ears, and a mouth full of a double set of razor-sharp teeth. Their psychic disguise was only ruptured when their cerebral connection was broken, such as when their head was severed, after which they would revert back to their true Kroot form.[5]

http://wh40k.lexicanum.com/wiki/Kroot#Shaping

What happens if Kroot eat a Bloodthirster?

**KamikazeCanuck**

Ohh Kroot-Eldar, now we're talking.

Anyway Kroot and Chaos and Tyranid don't mix. Needs to be somewhat normal not from another dimension/trying to steal your genes before you steal theirs.

**Amaya**

I don't see anything about the can't eat Daemons bit, but your explanation makes sense. That bites. The possibilities would be endlessly amazing.

**KamikazeCanuck**

One time they ate some Noise Marines, I think it was. They immediately turned pink and purple and crazy. Non crazy Kroot killed them and burned them. Word quickly got out: don't eat stuff tainted with the warp. Tastes bad anyway.

**Manchu**

Amaya wrote:
I'm pretty sure the fluff states that Knarlocs are an evolutionary dead end from the baseline Kroot species.

I believe that's the case for Krootox rather than Knarloc.

**Amaya**

The wording on Lexicanum suggests that it implies to the Knarlocs as well.

I'm trying to find something more concrete.

Automatically Appended Next Post:

Great Knarlocs are an evolutionary dead end, much like the Krootox and Kroot Hound. It is a solitary hunter in the jungles, suited by its muscular legs and hinge ankles for long distance tracking. Its lower legs and claws are developed for occasional bursts of speed, enhanced by the Hyperactive Nymune Organ, and it can use its toes to launch itself from cover whilst stalking its prey. All of its developments put it firmly in the hunter/scavenger category, aided by its omnivorous nature.

http://wh40k.lexicanum.com/wiki/Great_Knarloc

Sources
Imperial Armour Volume Three - The Taros Campaign p217-220
1: Deathwatch: Mark of the Xenos

**KamikazeCanuck**

I think that's the case for all kroot except the humanoid kroot. Non-sentient Kroot have found themselves in a dead end.

**Manchu**

I don't have Mark of the Xenos so I can't confirm, especially seeing that the DW footnote is appended to a separate paragraph. I also don't have the Taros book -- but then again, it is not particularly cited to any claim in the entry.

Automatically Appended Next Post:

Hruotland wrote:
I suppose Option (1) is not applicable because of fundamental differences in the biological composure of the ecoystems.

I'm not sure what you mean. Lexicanum at least suggests Knarloc are native to Pech.

Automatically Appended Next Post:

Grey Templar wrote:
Pretty sure nobody is claiming T-rexs specifically became birds. More like a small dinosaur that could actually climb trees is what became birds.

I don't think that is an effective counterpoint. Dinosaurs that could climb trees evolved from ones that couldn't.

**Backfire**

Manchu wrote:

Grey Templar wrote:
Pretty sure nobody is claiming T-rexs specifically became birds. More like a small dinosaur that could actually climb trees is what became birds.
I don't think that is an effective counterpoint. Dinosaurs that could climb trees evolved from ones that couldn't.

Yes, but at the same time there were dinosaurs which could not climb trees, much less fly.

I don't believe all megafauna on Pech are descended from Kroot, and I think fluff points to that direction, though I'm not sure what exactly it says about Knarlocs. Clearly they're related to Kroot, but are they "Kroot" in taxonomic sense? Probably, "Kroot" are viewed as monophyletic grouping, evolved from single common ancestor, and related "cousin" taxa is excluded. Much like mammals have evolved from reptiles, yet we do not consider mammals to be reptiles.

**Grey Templar**

Manchu wrote:

Automatically Appended Next Post:

Grey Templar wrote:
Pretty sure nobody is claiming T-rexs specifically became birds. More like a small dinosaur that could actually climb trees is what became birds.
I don't think that is an effective counterpoint. Dinosaurs that could climb trees evolved from ones that couldn't.

That over simplifying it I think. They didn't evolve from a giant creature that would be big as the tree itself. They would evolve from a small lightweight creature closer to the eventual product.

The Knarloc is very similar to a T-rex(deliberatly I believe)

Now while GW could say they did evolve from the Knarloc and we take their word for it its probably just them not learning how stuff would work.

Maybe the Karloc and the Kroot Ancester were once the same thing and the species split in 2. One became tree dwelling and stayed small, while the other just got a little bigger. So in a sense it could be their ancestor(but not literally)

**Backfire**

Grey Templar wrote:

That over simplifying it I think. They didn't evolve from a giant creature that would be big as the tree itself. They would evolve from a small lightweight creature closer to the eventual product.

The Knarloc is very similar to a T-rex(deliberatly I believe)

There were scary Theropods even after K-T event, it's not like T-rex had a monopoly:

There probably are many different sized Knarlocs, ranging from tiny to T-rex sized Great Knarlocs. Just like is the case with real-world birds and dinosaurs.

**Manchu**

There are at least two sizes we know about.

**KamikazeCanuck**

There isn't a good real life analogy. They don't follow our biological norms and are truly alien. The closest thing out there to them is actually a genestealer. The defining trait of a Kroot is probably the fact their stomachs have brains.

**Kroothawk**

All vertebrae (or "higher animal life forms) on the Kroot home planet Pech that we know of, are evolutionary closely related. Kroot legend attributes the Kroothawk, a raptor bird, as their (common?) ancestor. All life forms have evolved naturally, with some remaining stationary now ("Evolutionary dead end") like Knarlocs, Krootoxen and Kroot hounds. Only the Kroot seem to still have the full evolutionary flexibility attributed to the special Kroot biology, esp. the second brain around their stomach. "Kroot" only descibes the Kroot species itself, not the other races or any other taxonomic group.

All this is out of my head, I have to check sources when I am back home.

BTW: Here one of the most recent editions of the Kodex Kroot, a fan-made 5th edition extension of the original Kroot mercenary list. It includesa reprint of the official WD article "Index Xenos: Kroot" by Graham McNeill:
http://trobarts.customer.netspace.net.au/5th_ed_kroot_mercenaries_army_list_by_kompletely_kroot_V5.86.pdf

Edit: Seems, Krootoxen and Kroot hounds are actually indeed considered sub species of the Kroot race:

However the strangest quirk of Kroot digestion is their ability to extract potentially useful strands of their food's DNA. Adeptus Mechanicus Genetors have long been aware that much of the double helix structure of DNA is in fact blank. Used to separate those areas that do contain genetic information. The Kroot have somehow inherited the ability to incorporate useful DNA codes into their own genetic make up. Larger Kroot, called Shapers, who have an instinctive understanding of this process, can direct their kindred to consume certain prey in order that in successive generations, they may take on elements of those genes.

The process is not an exact science and there are many examples where it has gone awry, leaving some trapped in evolutionary cul-de-sacs, the Krootox and Kroot Hounds being the most visible evidence of this. At some point in their evolutionary history, both sub-species of Kroot fed upon creatures that were possessed of traits they wished to take on, but in doing so atrophied their intelligence. The Krootox are now much larger and stronger, but became lumbering creatures, more akin to forest dwelling herbivores than their smaller, more intelligent kin. The Kroot Hounds became faster and leaner but, like the Krootox, their intelligence was reduced, becoming little more than vicious predators. There are other variations, such as the smaller, flying Kroothawk and the serpentine Krootworm, as well as other, more terrifying, creatures. Deep within the forests of Pech, there exist beasts that were once Kroot, but have since descended hideous evolutionary paths to become monsters that feed on their own kind. Such places have become cursed and only the bravest or most foolhardy Kroot ever venture within their haunted depths.