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My brother recently went to a Goodwill and found a blue bloody TON of Warhammer and Warhammer 40k novels for sale at like a $1.50 a pop and got me a bunch of Horus Heresy novels along with "Palace of the Plague Lord" I'm not reading them in any kind of order, just whichever book strikes my fancy next after finishing one. I did read the Word Bearers books (Dark Apostle, Dark Disciple, and Dark Creed) in order, but that's only because the books were a trilogy. So far I've read "Mechanicum," A Thousand Sons," and I'm on "Legion" now. Everything is pretty standard gaming writing which I'm very familiar with. However Graham McNeill needs to stop repeating words in sentences (bad Grammar, BAD!, no cookie for you!).

Throughout all these different novels, it was "Mechanicum" that really made me wonder, "Who IS this Emperor fellow anyways?" I figured, in my youth when I first played this game, I could figure out quite easily who he was by just the tiny snippets you got from the game. How foolish we all are in our youth . After reading "Mechanicum," and later "A Thousand Sons," I've begun to look upon the Emperor with a lot less favor.

So far, what I can glean from these two novels is that yes, he was a very powerful psychic, but only used that ability, and the proto-Astartes, to further is own power and to glorify himself. The Great Crusade was NOT the push for mankind to "Masters of the Galaxy," but more like he did it to make himself the "Master of All Things" and would go to any lengths to accomplish that goal. This included using Mankind as nothing more than a tool for his designs. Instead of having respect for the differing cultures of Mankind that had sprouted up over the Millenia, the culture created by him, and only by him, was the only way to go, driving any of those that fought him into extinction (or very nearly so). His perception that ALL Xenos are evil was entirely wrong and only pushed the ideals to silence those that opposed him and his forces. He believed whole-heartedly in the genocidal murdering of entire planets that resisted compliance (His own actions, and the actions of his Primarchs, especially that cry-baby Leman Russ, prove this to be true).

In short, The Emperor was a covetous, greedy, power-hungry, Nazi-esque bastard that kept the Dragon imprisoned to use it's power, and kept it all hidden so that he, and he alone, would be glorified. Since he preached a disbelief in Gods, he couldn't very well call himself one, but then again, if he'd accomplished everything he wanted to, he would have been Master of The Galaxy and had been worshipped like one by Mankind. He used Eugenics programs to create the Primarchs and the Astartes armies. If anyone cares to remember, the Nazis were the architects of the very first eugenics programs, that's why I use the term "Nazi-esque" when referring to the Emperor. Okay, that and his genocidal methods. He was a despot and I'm glad he's nothing more than a half-dead corpse floating ina a tube filled with urine-colored water. Good-riddance you bastard!

However, please feel frr to write up your own opinion of who he was, this is, after all, a forrum and I'd entertain any and all thinkers to do llikewise

Umm, post fail?

Also, this should probably be in background.

..

.. err... I'm gonna move this to the 40k background board -- which is where 40k lore related discussion takes place.
I'm afraid the original post is still somewhat .... vague ... with regards to exactly what he/she is trying to say. perhaps if they take the time to correct or finish the post something marvellous will occur.

Yeah my POS computer posted it for some reason and when I came back from the washroom I found it like that. So I edited it to complete my thoughts. And yes, I apologise for the wrong placing, please do move it.

Hooo boy. And Godwin'd in the first post.

The Emperor is an immensely powerful immortal being who is the only hope for Humanity in a horribly dark and dangerous universe.

40k is all about the ends justifying the means. He does what he has to in order to save humanity. Once he gets put into the throne, the rest of the Imperium does what it has to to save humanity. That is often not a pretty sight.

IMO, the Emp did it for humanity. I think the Emperor is what the Inquisition calls a Puritan Monodominant: i.e., someone who believes that mankind can only survive by dominating the entire galaxy (and beyond), including the wholesale genocide of other races. Sure, that doesn't make him a nice guy. But I don't think he did all he did just for the sake of his ego. Nothing I've read in the HH books point to that conclusion, at least.

 Manchu wrote:
IMO, the Emp did it for humanity. I think the Emperor is what the Inquisition calls a Puritan Monodominant: i.e., someone who believes that mankind can only survive by dominating the entire galaxy (and beyond), including the wholesale genocide of other races. Sure, that doesn't make him a nice guy. But I don't think he did all he did just for the sake of his ego. Nothing I've read in the HH books point to that conclusion, at least.

Yeah, it's pretty easy to say that if he was doing it solely for himself he would have done things a bit differently.

 Manchu wrote:
IMO, the Emp did it for humanity. I think the Emperor is what the Inquisition calls a Puritan Monodominant: i.e., someone who believes that mankind can only survive by dominating the entire galaxy (and beyond), including the wholesale genocide of other races. Sure, that doesn't make him a nice guy. But I don't think he did all he did just for the sake of his ego. Nothing I've read in the HH books point to that conclusion, at least.

(Also) agreed. He has his flaws (and strengths) and is a pretty bloody-handed blighter, but I do feel that he had the general best intentions for humanity in mind.

At the least I find him a very interesting character.

It's Jezus, duh.

 Soladrin wrote:
It's Jezus, duh.

I guess he ran out of cheeks to turn and thought: "Actually, I'm going to be a badass this time."

 Griddlelol wrote:

 Soladrin wrote:
It's Jezus, duh.

I guess he ran out of cheeks to turn and thought: "Actually, I'm going to be a badass this time."

He came back and just went, you know what? I should just be the boss. And so it was.

My conclusions are based upon the discovery of the Dragon's cave on Mars in "Mechanicum," what was found there and discussed there. Also from what Magnus was shown by Tzeentch, he was to placed in a "soul-engine," eternally suffering. Also what John Grammaticus saw in the Emperor when he first met him a long time ago in "Legion." I understand the 40k Universe is dark with no light at the end of the tunnel, and I can see where you're coming from. To survive, one must wipe out the other competitors. This isn't simply a survival method I've seen, it was the Emperor's way of forcing his ideals on other humans cultures. He and his actions are no better than Hitler, Pol Pot, or Caesar and they're pogroms. I believe it WAS his ego and his addiction to the power out there that he knew he could gain if only he was willing to murder enough people to get it.

I'll make no bones about the threat the orks and tyranids posed, that was a given. However, the way he went about his war with the galaxy was what ultimately doomed his dream of godhood.

You're still assuming the Emperor did what he did in order to be acclaimed a god. That seems false, at least in the sense you mean.

Edited by Manchu -- please stay on topic, thanks.

I think you may be overreacting in an inappropriate fashion. :(

 Manchu wrote:
You're still assuming the Emperor did what he did in order to be acclaimed a god. That seems false, at least in the sense you mean.

Not a god per say, just an individual with god-like abilities. Gods can create universes and worlds, the Emperor, even with the power of the Webway at his command, could never do that, he's even wary of the Chaos "gods" because of their immense power. While reading I figured he wanted that kind of power to rival them so mankind wouldn't be corrupted by their influence.

If that's the case, then I can forgive some of what he did, but the way his Primarchs handled things, especially that cry-baby Russ, was unforgivable. Russ especially comes of as the most stalwart Nazi did: murdering without question or thought. He was like a robot. I bring up the Nazis not only because I hate them with a passion, but also one can draw a lot of parallels to them and the Astartes throughout the lore. I feel if one can justify the murders the Emperor committed, one can then go on to justify the real-life despots in our own world has seen...which I can't. To me, Hitler and Stalin both deserved to burn. In the same vein, the Emperor deserved to have his dreams dashed.

Edited by Manchu

I feel - and I don't mean to offend - that you are overreacting and jumping to conclusions.

You originally opened with a badly formatted, incomplete and vague post. Red' basically said as much, moved it to the right forum, and even allowed the thread to remain open; basically advising you on how to make a better thread and allowing you to do so. He's a sarcastic, but particularly funny IMHO, Mod, but he gave you all courtesy and frankly I'm shocked the thread was allowed to stay open.

I think Red deserves a lot more credit than you just gave him.

GreySkull wrote:My conclusions are based upon the discovery of the Dragon's cave on Mars in "Mechanicum," what was found there and discussed there. Also from what Magnus was shown by Tzeentch, he was to placed in a "soul-engine," eternally suffering. Also what John Grammaticus saw in the Emperor when he first met him a long time ago in "Legion." I understand the 40k Universe is dark with no light at the end of the tunnel, and I can see where you're coming from. To survive, one must wipe out the other competitors. This isn't simply a survival method I've seen, it was the Emperor's way of forcing his ideals on other humans cultures. He and his actions are no better than Hitler, Pol Pot, or Caesar and they're pogroms. I believe it WAS his ego and his addiction to the power out there that he knew he could gain if only he was willing to murder enough people to get it.

I'll make no bones about the threat the orks and tyranids posed, that was a given. However, the way he went about his war with the galaxy was what ultimately doomed his dream of godhood.

I think that there are two key problems here:
1. Generally, you can't really place much faith in visions or information provided by the Chaos Gods, and Tzeentch is certainly no different.
2. We seem to see different motivations regarding the imprisonment of the void dragon. Basically, by doing so, the Emperor defeated a malicious god (or shard of a god) and then used said god to improve innovation and production on mars. He's not going to reveal the truth, as it supports Xenos, the existence of gods and a very grand deception. Again, this seems to show a motivation of doing what he must for the 'greater good' of humanity. A side effect of this - and his healing the Knight for example - was the view of an Omnissiah, however.

Whilst - understandably - this could be seen as done for selfish reasons, I see it as furthering humanity. He's not a nice guy - afterall he's lied to just about the entirety of humanity and has gone out of his way to destroy everyone else - but again, he seems to be doing it to further humanity, IMHO.

Keanu Reeves is definently the Emperor.
The world would not make sense if he wasn't.

Yes, the Emperor was not a nice person and the Imperium is evil. How is this news?

Edited by Manchu

 GreySkull wrote:
Russ especially comes of as the most stalwart Nazi did: murdering without question or thought. He was like a robot.

Have you read Prospero Burns yet? Russ did not really delight in his task nor did he merely follow orders. He was acting according to his conscience as much as according to the Emperor's command.

 Manchu wrote:

 GreySkull wrote:
Russ especially comes of as the most stalwart Nazi did: murdering without question or thought. He was like a robot.

Have you read Prospero Burns yet? Russ did not really delight in his task nor did he merely follow orders. He was acting according to his conscience as much as according to the Emperor's command.

And can we done with the Nazi this and Nazi that? It really doesn't advance the argument any.

As Manchu said, Russ did what he had to do.

More than that, he did what he thought was right even though it pained him. That's a lot more than GreySkull is giving him credit for.

 Manchu wrote:
More than that, he did what he thought was right even though it pained him. That's a lot more than GreySkull is giving him credit for.

Yeah, I had a strong dislike for Russ before Prospero Burns (and A Thousand Sons), but they've added a lot more character to him beyond him simply being the Emperor's Lap-dog.

 Manchu wrote:

 GreySkull wrote:
Russ especially comes of as the most stalwart Nazi did: murdering without question or thought. He was like a robot.

Have you read Prospero Burns yet? Russ did not really delight in his task nor did he merely follow orders. He was acting according to his conscience as much as according to the Emperor's command.

No I have not, but from what I have read, he's not my favorite primarch anymore. And yes one can draw parallels to the Nazis. Eugenics programs, genocide of cultures not your own, the (well, what else would you call it?) out-and-out worship of a man? The Idea that one race (in this case, species) is superior to another? I don't know, sounds like Space Nazis to me.

Gods can create universes and worlds, the Emperor, even with the power of the Webway at his command, could never do that, he's even wary of the Chaos "gods" because of their immense power. While reading I figured he wanted that kind of power to rival them so mankind wouldn't be corrupted by their influence.

Not exactly, not in 40K. The universe, and pretty much everything in it, exists apart from the presence (or lack thereof) of gods. The various C'Tan (gods of the physical realm) and the Chaos Gods (the gods of the Immaterium) can bend, shape, destroy, convert, corrupt, redesign and otherwise muck about with things that already exist within the confines of the galaxy (and the Warp), but none of them created the universe, or anything in it that did not, in some fashion, already exist. Yes, they may have created tanks with bull's heads and tentacles, but tanks, tentacles and bulls all existed already.

Given how gods work in 40K, none of the currently-existing religions of real-world Earth (either in the modern era or throughout human history) have been, or could have ever possibly been, true. At best, they are myths of people serving sentient beings that rose out of the Warp, or are myths of the Emperor throughout history, before he revealed himself to Mankind, or are simple fabrications without a single kernel of truth to them.

That said... no, the Emperor was not a "nice guy". However, much of humanity had fallen to worshiping the Ruinous Powers or Xeno overlords following the Dark Age of Technology and the Age of Strife, which threatened the future of all of humanity. As the Emperor was the Emperor, first and foremost, of Terra, the birthplace of Humanity, it can be argued that he alone had the right to make the claim for humanity's dominion of the stars. Any who opposed him thus opposed Terra. As well, might makes right in 40K, and the Great Crusade was an expression of the Emperor's might.

No I have not, but from what I have read, he's not my favorite primarch anymore. And yes one can draw parallels to the Nazis. Eugenics programs, genocide of cultures not your own, the (well, what else would you call it?) out-and-out worship of a man? The Idea that one race (in this case, species) is superior to another? I don't know, sounds like Space Nazis to me.

I know it's popular to paint the Nazis as a cult that worshiped Hitler as a god, but they didn't. Fascists in other parts of the world did not do this, either. Eugenics programs and cultural genocide were in practice in the rest of the world long before Hitler was ever born, let alone founding a new German empire. I mean, if you want to talk about genocide, the United States has a good century of practice on the Reich, they simply lacked the technologies of the 1930s. Do not doubt that we would have used them had they been available, however. This doesn't even get into our historic beliefs of Africans as sub-humans to be used as slave animals.

 GreySkull wrote:

 Manchu wrote:

 GreySkull wrote:
Russ especially comes of as the most stalwart Nazi did: murdering without question or thought. He was like a robot.

Have you read Prospero Burns yet? Russ did not really delight in his task nor did he merely follow orders. He was acting according to his conscience as much as according to the Emperor's command.

No I have not, but from what I have read, he's not my favorite primarch anymore.

I'd thoroughly advise reading it then: it adds a lot more to Russ and the Space Wolves than alluded to previously and in A Thousand Sons, as both novels are told from separate perspectives (and this one there helps give your Russ'). Although, personally, I couldn't understand why you'd like Russ before!

 Just Dave wrote:

 Manchu wrote:
More than that, he did what he thought was right even though it pained him. That's a lot more than GreySkull is giving him credit for.

Yeah, I had a strong dislike for Russ before Prospero Burns (and A Thousand Sons), but they've added a lot more character to him beyond him simply being the Emperor's Lap-dog.

I'll read it after Legion since I'm willing to give Russ the benefit of the doubt. I figured there was more to him, but then again how could I be sure when his quotes throughout A thousand Sons make him out to be a blind idiot. Not that the Sons weren't equally as blind since they were pretty much doomed from the start.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Just Dave wrote:

 GreySkull wrote:

 Manchu wrote:

 GreySkull wrote:
Russ especially comes of as the most stalwart Nazi did: murdering without question or thought. He was like a robot.

Have you read Prospero Burns yet? Russ did not really delight in his task nor did he merely follow orders. He was acting according to his conscience as much as according to the Emperor's command.

No I have not, but from what I have read, he's not my favorite primarch anymore.

I'd thoroughly advise reading it then: it adds a lot more to Russ and the Space Wolves than alluded to previously and in A Thousand Sons, as both novels are told from separate perspectives (and this one there helps give your Russ'). Although, personally, I couldn't understand why you'd like Russ before!

Space Vikings man! Who wouldn't love some Vikings in Space?

@GreySkull: I don't know if you've ever heard of this so I am going to lay it out for you. No condescension is intended.

There is a phrase on the internet, the name "Godwin" used as a verb. It is a reference to another internet trope, Godwin's Law which asserts that as a discussion on the internet proceeds the probability of someone mentioning Hitler or Nazis approaches 1. "Godwining" is when a poster actually mentions Hitler or Nazis. Generally speaking, this is considered poor form because it is polarizing and often derails conversations. For these reasons, it is heavily associated with trolling. Godwining a thread is a reliable way to provoke hostile and skeptical responses.

I'm bringing this up ITT rather than in a PM because a lot of your conclusions about the Emperor seem to be a result of you Godwining yourself. There is very little -- practically nothing -- to suggest that the Emperor shared any of Hitler's or other Nazis' motivations. By continuing to evoke Nazism and other real life despotic regimes, you seem to really only be saying again, albeit in more passionate terms, that you really don't like the Emperor. The analogy is pretty broken otherwise and it obscures more than it reveals, as can be seen with your inappropriate comparison between Leman Russ and a Nazi robot.

Avoiding Godwining comments is always a good idea.

 GreySkull wrote:
Space Vikings man! Who wouldn't love some Vikings in Space?

I like the Space Wolves, but as for Russ himself (pre-Prospero Burns): http://www.dakkadakka.com/wiki/en/Just_Dave_Ranks_The_Primarchs#13th:

Anyways, this is kinda off-topic, no?