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I was watching a game of warmachine the other day, and I was struck by the state of models on the table. Many of them had lost arms and other bits in transport. Although the designs of some models look fantastic for display, they do not hold up to the rigors of actual game play. This problem is of course not unique to WM. In many cases, Infinity and Malifaux miniatures are more prone to breakage. I think that a simpler model that is sturdy would look much better than a broken masterpiece. Such models would also likely lead to more painted armies, as they would not require as much time to assemble and that time could be spent painting. The assembly of some of the more delicate models is so frustrating I am sure that it would ward off newcomers. After spending much too much time setting .5mm pins, all I want to do is work with some one piece models, take up DUST, or even break open some X wing.

Although a lot of figures are more delicate today than they were 20 years ago (or even 10 years ago) - most issues relating to breakage are due to improper assembly or rough handling.

I have seen a lot of people just dump their figures into a transport tray and than throw that tray into the back of a car. It is no surprise that they end up with glue joints that snap and swords which break off.

A pin, and the proper adhesive to ensure a solid bond will go a long way - but even more than that is taking a little bit of care in packing and carrying the figures.

That in mind - there are a lot of companies who still deal primarily in one piece models.

There are certainly loads of people who simply cannot be bothered to take care of their models. However, some of the new stuff that is out there will break if you look at it. Examples include Imperial agents from Infinity, Copellius from Malifaux, and even Dark Eldar Scourges. (Note to designers, pony tails are a bad idea unless they are sculpted onto the mini.)

Many such minis do not survive standard transport methods such as foam. If you want them to arrive intact, you must magnetize them to a sheet of metal and put them in a box.

These models also require alot more time to assemble. Pinning tentacles makes me sad.

I will be looking for some easy stuff for my next project.

 spaceelf wrote:
. Although the designs of some models look fantastic for display, they do not hold up to the rigors of actual game play.

I've heard similar sentiments from time to time over the years, and it makes me wonder just what people do to their models... Gameplay isn't 'rigorous'. You pick the model up, and put it down somewhere else. Even with more 'delicate' models it's not hard to do without breaking them.

I have the feeling much of the DE range was never intended to be transported.

Kept on a shelf for home games, yes, but they are a stone-cold pain to transport unless you assemble them stripped down.

The raider -hull vehicle sails are fragile and prone to snapping off, and tend to snag. The chains dangling from the hull look awesome but are very fragile. The guys hanging on the sides are best not glued in, because they'll snap off if you do. The banner poles, trophy racks and keel blades aren't exactly sturdy either.

They look fething AWESOME, OTOH.

Mine ride in a deep-sided tray, on their stands, packed close together. It works a LOT better than trying to put them in a foam case.

Scourges are amazing models, but fragile just in use. Lots of ways those models can snag on scenery or other models when you move them.

 insaniak wrote:

 spaceelf wrote:
. Although the designs of some models look fantastic for display, they do not hold up to the rigors of actual game play.

I've heard similar sentiments from time to time over the years, and it makes me wonder just what people do to their models... Gameplay isn't 'rigorous'. You pick the model up, and put it down somewhere else. Even with more 'delicate' models it's not hard to do without breaking them.

The only big issue (other than a rare drop off a table edge) that I have ever had to deal with was a couple of 300 some odd pound hippos got into a spat over who would get the last bit of fried chicken from the bottom of their feed bucket. The two of them fell over, quite ungracefully, unto a table which we were gaming on - destroying both the table and most things which were on it at the time (they even managed to bend a hardbound rulebook in half across its spine). That is not a normal occurrence though, and very few things will withstand 600+ pounds falling on top of it.

 insaniak wrote:
I've heard similar sentiments from time to time over the years, and it makes me wonder just what people do to their models... Gameplay isn't 'rigorous'. You pick the model up, and put it down somewhere else. Even with more 'delicate' models it's not hard to do without breaking them.

But even then you get accidents. You pick up your casualties and drop a model, a stray die hits a fragile bit, you snag a sword point on the foam taking your models out of their case, etc. If you're using your models and not just leaving them on the display shelf occasionally things are going to break.

Of course the real problem isn't the accidents, it's the fact that many people don't care enough to fix that kind of minor damage and their models just keep accumulating problems.

 insaniak wrote:

 spaceelf wrote:
. Although the designs of some models look fantastic for display, they do not hold up to the rigors of actual game play.

I've heard similar sentiments from time to time over the years, and it makes me wonder just what people do to their models... Gameplay isn't 'rigorous'. You pick the model up, and put it down somewhere else. Even with more 'delicate' models it's not hard to do without breaking them.

There are all kinds of hazards in gaming. I have seen many a miniature fall from a hill and break. (Many metal models are top heavy and hills are not made for standing.) Then you have breakages from careless handing on the tabletop, such as opponents pushing your guys when they charge in, which results in a fall. I have even picked up a miniature the wrong way and broke it. Sometimes it is hard to pick it up by the base, as terrain and other models are in the way.

All of this being said, transport is the number one cause of casualties.

If you're breaking models in your case, you obviously need a better case...

There have always been some models that are ridiculously fragile, but I agree that they have been on the rise.

However, IMHO, it's just a function of the market. Over the years sculpting and casting have steadily improved, and customers have desired models that are more finely detailed, more extravagant and more ornate. The chunky single-piece models of yesteryear just don't cut it. Making models that aren't often results in models with smaller bits, and companies have been falling over themselves to make such models.

Of course proper transport can probably solve 95% of these issues, but some figs just seem to be made to break, and I don't think we'll be seeing less of these miniatures produced anytime soon.

 Laughing Man wrote:
If you're breaking models in your case, you obviously need a better case...

How I imagined you ending this post:






But seriously, I've got a handful of broken models atm. The first 2 are some of my first Malifaux figs (2 Death Marshals) that should have been pinned, but I didn't have any pinning equipment at the time, so they're just glued. Their arms fell off after a kid dropped them onto the table during a demo. Oddly enough, my Coppelius has taken a 4 foot drop to the floor and survived . But the other models I have are a few old Iron Warriors that have also hit the floor... I attributed that to old super glue bonds weakening. I think most of the issues with broken models are due to improper construction... but oh well.

 spaceelf wrote:
If you want them to arrive intact, you must magnetize them to a sheet of metal and put them in a box.

This, this is an amazingly fantastic idea. I may actually do this.

Something along these lines:

1) find cool box, maybe even something sturdy like wood.
2) go to home improvement store, get piece of sheet metal
3) cut sheet metal to fit box, glue down with industrial adhesive
4) add magnets to recessed underside of mini bases

I can add magnets to any and all models I might need to transport. When game day comes, simply place the chosen army into the box.

One of the guys that shows up for my Malifaux events did that, all of his malifaux figs are magnetized. The store owner's wife thought it was a neat idea, asked him how good the hold was, and he flipped the sheet over... I freaked out, but nothing fell. I still like my cases, but it's a darn good option.

It's a rare day that I come back from a game and somebody doesn't need the attention of the apothocary or techmarine. Normally just little things, like a backpack or arm, often at a plastic/metal join, or missing the penny in the base I add to the old guys for a little extra mass.

I am careful, but accidents happen, and hills and terrain and the need to pay attention to true LOS make for some precarious perches. And these are old marines for the most part, not spindly fragile things.

I do cringe when I see someone grab minis by the handful and toss them into a shoebox. Altho most people who put any effort into painting take care of what they have.

I have painted models which are close to 18 years old which see regular tabletop play. Not a paintchip or damaged piece among them. If you do break your model, you fix him! Paint touch up and glue and back to active duty!

My Armageddon Mega Nobz and Ghazghkull from late 90s regularly make an appearance and they are well played. Nothing a clear coat hasn't protected against. About 5 years ago I did do a paint fix up and re-coated them, but they still in good shape.

 Mad4Minis wrote:

 spaceelf wrote:
If you want them to arrive intact, you must magnetize them to a sheet of metal and put them in a box.

This, this is an amazingly fantastic idea. I may actually do this.

Something along these lines:

1) find cool box, maybe even something sturdy like wood.
2) go to home improvement store, get piece of sheet metal
3) cut sheet metal to fit box, glue down with industrial adhesive
4) add magnets to recessed underside of mini bases

I can add magnets to any and all models I might need to transport. When game day comes, simply place the chosen army into the box.

I do this with a cookie sheet and magnets.
http://marticlan.info/images/cookiesheet.jpg
Old pic, but those are Metal Hive Guard. I have an old clown faced Tyrant with wings that can stand sideways on the fridge, my Tervigons won't budge without a small amount of force, etc.

Magnets are fun.

Just make sure they are GOOD magnets, before you do the flip-the-tray thing, especially for metals..

A friend did this once, but he cheaped out on the magnets and neglected to check that they'd hold upside down because 'they stuck pretty good right way up...'

Wince-worthy indeed.

Yeah - I'm too chicken to flip mine over, but I'll put them on the side of the fridge np. If they start sliding down I throw in another magnet.

 Mad4Minis wrote:

 spaceelf wrote:
If you want them to arrive intact, you must magnetize them to a sheet of metal and put them in a box.

This, this is an amazingly fantastic idea. I may actually do this.

Something along these lines:

1) find cool box, maybe even something sturdy like wood.
2) go to home improvement store, get piece of sheet metal
3) cut sheet metal to fit box, glue down with industrial adhesive
4) add magnets to recessed underside of mini bases

I can add magnets to any and all models I might need to transport. When game day comes, simply place the chosen army into the box.

A good old fashioned metal toolbox works very well.

 Mad4Minis wrote:

 spaceelf wrote:
If you want them to arrive intact, you must magnetize them to a sheet of metal and put them in a box.

This, this is an amazingly fantastic idea. I may actually do this.

Something along these lines:

1) find cool box, maybe even something sturdy like wood.
2) go to home improvement store, get piece of sheet metal
3) cut sheet metal to fit box, glue down with industrial adhesive
4) add magnets to recessed underside of mini bases

I can add magnets to any and all models I might need to transport. When game day comes, simply place the chosen army into the box.

My friend does the opposite. He bases all his minis on steel washers then lines his boxes with sheet magnets. It tends to be a bit cheaper than buying special magnets for each miniature. Alot of wargamers actually do this, especially in 15mm where there isn't a history of folks basing their miniatures on plastic plinths. Some folks with 28mm even glue washers under or inside their miniatures bases.

Even with magnetized models, it's still not advisable to jostle the boxes too much or invert them, but it is quite and easy way to make sure that your models don't contact any foam/models/box-sides.

If you do this, make sure that you are buying steel washers. Zinc washers are cheaper, but are non-ferrous and non-magnetic.

whenver i watch batreps i always see people attempting to balance models on uneven terrain and they fall over obviously. they pick up big hangful of models at once when they remove casualties, they put models in big "dead piles" all jumbled together.

no gak they break and chip and start to look like crap. they screw up hours of assembling and painting to save a few minutes while gaming. pretty moronic. If people werent so careless they wouldnt have any problems.

personally i would flip gak if someone even picked up my model not from the base rim. i dont like fingers touching the surface and wear latex gloves when painting for the same reason.

I think a major culprit is the switch from epoxy (& pins) to superglue

Yes superglue is quick and convenient, and you can get away without pinning (at least with plastic), but the bond it gives is far more brittle than that from epoxy

and the fact that it sets fast means many will not take the time needed to 'key' the surfaces properly to give the joint extra hold (even if you don't pin)

Many people seem to superglue onto a painted surface too especially when 'repairing' a model or swapping in a different weapon.

or fail to clean off the old glue from a broken joint before fixing it

Both great way to ensure that the joint will fail again soon

Yes thinner sculpts and the rise of plastic contribute, but the changes in building practice are a major factor too

nkelsch wrote:
I have painted models which are close to 18 years old which see regular tabletop play. Not a paintchip or damaged piece among them. If you do break your model, you fix him! Paint touch up and glue and back to active duty!

This.

Not fixing a model that's already painted is just lazy. It takes all of 5 minutes to glue the part back on and maybe throw some small touchups to the paint on.

kb305 wrote:
whenver i watch batreps i always see people attempting to balance models on uneven terrain and they fall over obviously. they pick up big hangful of models at once when they remove casualties, they put models in big "dead piles" all jumbled together.

no gak they break and chip and start to look like crap. they screw up hours of assembling and painting to save a few minutes while gaming. pretty moronic. If people werent so careless they wouldnt have any problems.

personally i would flip gak if someone even picked up my model not from the base rim. i dont like fingers touching the surface and wear latex gloves when painting for the same reason.

Meh..
I'm always careful to pick others minis up by the bases where possible, but I don't really worry about it with my figures. They're all dipped (which gives a nice thick layer of poly protection) and I play IG, so I'm often placing, pushing and removing minis in large groups. Of course they're also plastic and mostly assembled with plastic glue, so they don't come apart much either.

I do try to return them to the case immediately after removal, but more than protection, it's mostly just to keep some semblance of order when dealing with an army that often numbers near 100 miniatures.

I have only one metal model in my 40K army, and he never sees tabletime because he's the horribly top-heavy Chaos lord with Jump-pack and 2xLC. The rest of my army is plastic cemented together and I've had very few problems, I can see some issues arising in the near future with all the little details on the DV chosen, for example the small hand rising from the champions shoulderpad, or the rather fragile horns on the lord and the powerfist chosen, I'm careful with my models and avoid picking them up in big handfuls but over time they're bound to get caught on something.

I'm rather careful with my models, so barring accidents due to (clumsy, to a rage-inducing degree) outside interference, gaming isn't particularly "rigorous." I do agree, though, that some models seem designed to force you to find creative transportation options. If I ever start toting my Infinity figs around, they're getting magnetized to a tray. Most would be fine in foam, but some projecting parts are thin enough that the model's own weight could bend the metal (nothing to do with strength of joins) if they rest against a surface, even without the additional force of an impact. My (Haqqislam starter box) Janissary's sword wouldn't survive even a gentle car ride in a foam tray.

Shedding Space Marine arms and backpacks left and right, though, is purely a result of carelessness. From what I've seen of Warmahordes minis, I imagine issues are due more to carelessness than model design - most of them seem pretty solid, to my eye.

While some gamers are very careless about their miniatures, some models are just asking to break:
Most Gamezone cavalry (big metal models balancing on one hoof), Dark Eldar lose chains/spikes/rapiers, flag on Skaven Doomwheel etc. . Many sculptors just go for the looks and don't care for robustness, maybe because they never played. Some sculptors don't even care whether the miniature fits on the base, with Infinity making one of a kind base extensions now instead of fixing the miniature.

 OrlandotheTechnicoloured wrote:
I think a major culprit is the switch from epoxy (& pins) to superglue

Yes superglue is quick and convenient, and you can get away without pinning (at least with plastic), but the bond it gives is far more brittle than that from epoxy

and the fact that it sets fast means many will not take the time needed to 'key' the surfaces properly to give the joint extra hold (even if you don't pin)

Many people seem to superglue onto a painted surface too especially when 'repairing' a model or swapping in a different weapon.

or fail to clean off the old glue from a broken joint before fixing it

Both great way to ensure that the joint will fail again soon

Yes thinner sculpts and the rise of plastic contribute, but the changes in building practice are a major factor too

The superglue problem is especially true when assembling metal figures.

 Kilkrazy wrote:

 OrlandotheTechnicoloured wrote:
I think a major culprit is the switch from epoxy (& pins) to superglue

Yes superglue is quick and convenient, and you can get away without pinning (at least with plastic), but the bond it gives is far more brittle than that from epoxy

and the fact that it sets fast means many will not take the time needed to 'key' the surfaces properly to give the joint extra hold (even if you don't pin)

Many people seem to superglue onto a painted surface too especially when 'repairing' a model or swapping in a different weapon.

or fail to clean off the old glue from a broken joint before fixing it

Both great way to ensure that the joint will fail again soon

Yes thinner sculpts and the rise of plastic contribute, but the changes in building practice are a major factor too

The superglue problem is especially true when assembling metal figures.

I agree that pinning is very important. Epoxy does have greater shear strength than superglue. However, the bond is only as strong as the weakest link. Small bits of metal or plastic simply snap. No glue can prevent this. Some of these new minis have very small contact points that simply break. Take a look at Misaki from Malifaux. Her itty bitty feet, pony tail, and spear are all prone to break because they are really thin.