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I was going through the Daemons codex again looking for potential combos and noticed something rather nasty.

The wording for the Blasted Standard upgrade that a Pink Horror unit has access to is as follows:

"Once per game, the unit can declare it is using its blasted standard. This is done immediately before the unit makes a Shooting attack (including Overwatch) or attempts to manifest a Witchfire power. If it does so, any unit hit by that attack suffers an additional 2d6 S4 ap - hits."

Now, on Pink Horrors this isn't that nasty. When a Herald of Tzeentch joins the unit, however, things get a bit more interesting due to the possibility of gaining access to Bolt of Change. Bolt of Change is a beam power that automatically hits all models in a 24" line. What this means is that each unit hit by Bolt of Change would not only have to take its saves against Bolt of Change, if it were to be hit by the power, but, if Blasted Standard were used, they would take 2d6 S4 ap- hits as well. That's 2d6 auto hits against as many units as you can get under the line. I could see 4 units of Lvl2/3 Heralds and 10 man Pink Horror squads w/ Blasted Standard being pretty nasty, considering that. What do you guys think?

The problem is that the blasted standard only works on witchfire and ovewatch.
What you suggested was a beam spell, so I guess it won't work.

 Vombat wrote:
The problem is that the blasted standard only works on witchfire and ovewatch.
What you suggested was a beam spell, so I guess it won't work.

Beam powers are also witchfire powers, so it works. And it could also work with Horrors too, because Horrors can also get the Bolt of Change (they roll one power randomly from the Change discipline). 10 Horrors have 50% chance to get the Bolt (11+ have only 33%), so you can go with it without the Herald.

And yeah, I saw it in action, but it wasn't that super-duper devastating. Though I can see it work with, say, 4 units...

A bit OT:

can you hit locked in combat units with the beam power/weapon like with nova?

zamnath wrote:
I was going through the Daemons codex again looking for potential combos and noticed something rather nasty.

The wording for the Blasted Standard upgrade that a Pink Horror unit has access to is as follows:

"Once per game, the unit can declare it is using its blasted standard. This is done immediately before the unit makes a Shooting attack (including Overwatch) or attempts to manifest a Witchfire power. If it does so, any unit hit by that attack suffers an additional 2d6 S4 ap - hits."

Due to the Brotherhood of Sorcerers rule, the unit always casts separately from any attached ICs, doesn't it? The Herald attempting to manifest a Witchfire is not the unit attempting to manifest a Witchfire power, and thus the herald casting isn't eligible to activate/use the standard. At least that's my read.

 Mannahnin wrote:

zamnath wrote:
I was going through the Daemons codex again looking for potential combos and noticed something rather nasty.

The wording for the Blasted Standard upgrade that a Pink Horror unit has access to is as follows:

"Once per game, the unit can declare it is using its blasted standard. This is done immediately before the unit makes a Shooting attack (including Overwatch) or attempts to manifest a Witchfire power. If it does so, any unit hit by that attack suffers an additional 2d6 S4 ap - hits."

Due to the Brotherhood of Sorcerers rule, the unit always casts separately from any attached ICs, doesn't it? The Herald attempting to manifest a Witchfire is not the unit attempting to manifest a Witchfire power, and thus the herald casting isn't eligible to activate/use the standard. At least that's my read.

I think that since the Herald is part of the unit, it would still count, as the hit still comes from that unit. Otherwise, any effects or shots that hit the unit would not hit the Herald (or any other IC in the unit for that matter).

So in your opinion, the herald manifesting qualifies as "the unit attempt(ing) to manifest a Witchfire power"? I can't say that I agree. The unit and the herald manifest separately. This is how you get 6d6 shots out of a unit + herald combo. The herald casts and the unit casts.

The herald is a moot point. Instead, you just hope for the 50/50 roll for the Blasted Horror Squad, and hope to roll for the beam.

I also think it is better on smaller squads, potentially deep-striking ones (regardless of power rolled/picked). A bigger horror squad with a herald could already be putting out 6D6 TL-bs3 str6 ap 4 shots/turn.

 Mannahnin wrote:
So in your opinion, the herald manifesting qualifies as "the unit attempt(ing) to manifest a Witchfire power"? I can't say that I agree. The unit and the herald manifest separately. This is how you get 6d6 shots out of a unit + herald combo. The herald casts and the unit casts.

Per the BRB, when an IC is part of a unit, he counts as part of the unit for all rules purposes. As such, any actions a Herald takes while joined with a unit of Pinkies is considered an action of the unit.

The herald is part of the unit. It doesn't matter whether its the Pinkies manifesting or the Herald, its still the unit manifesting as long as the Herald is part of that unit. The banner doesn't say "unit of Pink Horrors attempt(ing) to manifest...". The Pinkies and the Herald form a single unit. Any shots, witchfire or otherwise, are considered to be coming from that unit.

Razerous wrote:
The herald is a moot point. Instead, you just hope for the 50/50 roll for the Blasted Horror Squad, and hope to roll for the beam.

I also think it is better on smaller squads, potentially deep-striking ones (regardless of power rolled/picked). A bigger horror squad with a herald could already be putting out 6D6 TL-bs3 str6 ap 4 shots/turn.

Wouldn't it be a 1/3 chance for pinkies? They can only generate one power, due to counting as a lvl 1 sorcerer, and have three powers they can potentially roll. Am I missing something?

Edit: and then I answer my own question. If you take a 10 man unit it only has 1 warpcharge and, therefore, gets to re-roll the third power. Nvm. That'd be much cheaper, too.

 ClassicCarraway wrote:

 Mannahnin wrote:
So in your opinion, the herald manifesting qualifies as "the unit attempt(ing) to manifest a Witchfire power"? I can't say that I agree. The unit and the herald manifest separately. This is how you get 6d6 shots out of a unit + herald combo. The herald casts and the unit casts.

Per the BRB, when an IC is part of a unit, he counts as part of the unit for all rules purposes.

Sure, except that for manifesting psychic powers, per BoS, the character and the unit always are counted as separate. Otherwise Perils by one would affect the other, they're be limited collectively to casting only one Witchfire per turn, etc. If they really did count as the same unit for the purpose of manifesting psychic powers, they could share the banner, but then they'd only be putting out 3d6 shots max per turn, rather than 6d6.

 Mannahnin wrote:

 ClassicCarraway wrote:

 Mannahnin wrote:
So in your opinion, the herald manifesting qualifies as "the unit attempt(ing) to manifest a Witchfire power"? I can't say that I agree. The unit and the herald manifest separately. This is how you get 6d6 shots out of a unit + herald combo. The herald casts and the unit casts.

Per the BRB, when an IC is part of a unit, he counts as part of the unit for all rules purposes.

Sure, except that for manifesting psychic powers, per BoS, the character and the unit always are counted as separate. Otherwise Perils by one would affect the other, they're be limited collectively to casting only one Witchfire per turn, etc. If they really did count as the same unit for the purpose of manifesting psychic powers, they could share the banner, but then they'd only be putting out 3d6 shots max per turn, rather than 6d6.

I think we are looking at this from two very different angles. I'm looking at it as any psyker in the unit manifesting powers counts as the unit manifesting powers for the Blasted Banner. Sure, you have to make two separate rolls for the Pinkies and the Herald to manifest powers, and the Perils results apply accordingly, there's no arguing that because its considered having two psykers in the same unit. Its the same as when shooting a IC in a unit, you roll for them separately, but for all intents and purposes, they are still considered part of the unit's shooting, but if the IC shooting the plasma gun rolls a 1, the IC has to save versus Gets Hot.

Look at it another way. If the Herald has one of the shooting Rewards, would they still be denied the Blasted Banner? The Herald is part of the unit and it made a shooting attack. How is that any different?

From my perspective, BoS makes very clear and explicit that the unit always tests separately from and is handled separately, when operating as a psyker, from any attached IC. And since the standard is triggered when the unit attempts to manifest a psychic power, and the IC always tests separately and distinctly from the unit...

Sure, the LD test is taken separately and its two manifestations, there was never any arguing that, but I don't see how that really impacts the Blasted Standard. Regardless of who is manifesting the power, Herald or Pinkies, its still the unit manifesting powers. Again, I point to shooting with a unit that has one or more ICs in it. The ICs roll separately, but their shots still count as part of the unit's shooting.

BoS doesn't state the IC is not considered part of the unit as far as manifesting its own power. All it states is that the unit with BoS has to manifest its power on its own LD value and not the LD of an IC that has joined the unit, and any resulting Perils results only impact the BoS models.