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I've always believed that whether I'm playing a friendly game or whether I'm going to a tournament with the intention of crushing every possible opponent, that I should have a TAC list. It's worked well for a long time, however I'm starting to feel that it's not working well enough.
I find myself losing, or struggling against opponents who spam the living hell out of one thing. FMCs are currently showing up, and they make the artillery I bring rather weak. However they make the Vendettas incredibly strong. X-colour tide lists are also showing the inverse of this. AV:14 spam has become rather common too. I was able to deal with a LR or 2, but now many have a 4++ all the time, it's becoming very difficult to deal with them and remove the scoring units inside.

Now these spam lists have always been around and a TAC approach has always been enough to win, or at least attempt to win. Currently it doesn't feel that way. My thesis in essence, is that I should give up on the TAC list building approach, move towards my own rock-paper-scissors list and accept that there will be games that I auto-lose. Rather than struggling to make a 1500-1850pt list fit in enough to deal with everything.

What's your opinion? Do you run a rock-paper-scissors list? Did you find a TAC list that works? Any advice how to make my preferred method (TAC) work?

I prefer all-around lists. Durable scoring and mobility, plus a mix of shooting (for all around and instant damage) and assault (to finish units off, break them, and push them off of or contest objectives) still reliably win.

If a given "rock"/spam list is giving you a lot of trouble locally, it may be worth tweaking your list to include more specific counters for that build.

Other spam lists may not require real list alterations, but just more practice/shifts in tactics.

 Mannahnin wrote:

If a given "rock"/spam list is giving you a lot of trouble locally, it may be worth tweaking your list to include more specific counters for that build.

I really do prefer all-round lists too. It's these damn DA LR spams that are killing me. I bring so many meltas but recently I can't manage to roll more than 6 on two dice. Even then 50% of those are nullified by the power field. Same with my Medusae and Manticores.
I feel as though I should just let my list lose against those, and concentrate on being better at everything else.

Even TAC lists need to be meta aware. Playing the rock/paper/scissor game is a gamble in a tournament environment. You get matched vs. your hard counter, and you just got knocked out of the winner's bracket. I still believe that TAC is a winning philosophy overall. Playing an army with a glaring exploitable weakness you are going to loose bad match ups. TAC always has a chance.

But when putting together a take all comers list, you need to be aware of who the "comers" part of TAC are. Try to find tools that can deal with as many of them as you can. If you have to make sacrifices, leave gaps and weakness in your army, try to make them for stuff you don't see a lot of localy.

The meta issue is my main concern. I've moved relatively recently, and only attending one competitive tournament (which was by no means close by), I can't take an educated guess at what I'm going to come up against.
I thought the logical choice was to take a TAC list, but it was unable to handle the AV:14 spam. FMCs were everywhere, and they caused me a little stress but I was able to deal with them. It made me consider that if I bring more anti-AV:14, I'll lose my ability to deal with FMCs. Lascannons on the ground don't cut it against FMCs or against AV:14 with a 4++. So bringing more fliers won't help me against the LRs but will massively help against the FMCs, but also against Necrons, C:SM, CSM, SW and Tau.

It would certainly be a killer if I came up against the AV:14 wall in the later stages, but it seemed to be like that with my TAC list anyway.

I don't play Guard,. so I can't give you any list specific advice. But, I do know from experience that the more Landraiders a person brings, the less ability they have to cap objectives (generally). Games with 5 objectives tend to be hard for these lists, so I often just ignore the landraiders.

4++ on vehicles is no different than 4+ cover so its not a big deal i think your rolling is kinda bad or theyre saves are really good. either way, you should just bring more melta if av 14 is really a problem.

I can run 3 land raider crusaders with 6 combat squads or 3 tac squads, so thats 6 or 3 scoring units, for big guns it is 6 to 9 scoring units and scourging it is 5 to 8 scoring units, so scoring with the right LR list is not hard...

I think 6th edition as a whole, given the recent codex design is lending itself to a much more rock paper scissors meta. The new codexes have mostly contained some very strong units paired with some pretty weak ones, leading to spamming the strong but still being vunerable to having your weaknesses exploited. For instance CSM can field the best any MEQ unit in the game, but their troop choices are expensive and vunerable. Nids have a great army when the psycic choir rolls right and is singing, but what about ROW and SW staffs? the closest list out there to a top tier list without hard counters I see at the moment is the IG/SW blob list. Even that list however really suffers from certain abilities opponents can bring (items forcing tougness tests especially if paired with enfeeble, units that can gain terrify ect).

phempchildrenbob wrote:
4++ on vehicles is no different than 4+ cover so its not a big deal i think your rolling is kinda bad or theyre saves are really good. either way, you should just bring more melta if av 14 is really a problem.

Try getting a 4+ cover save on a Land Raider. Try getting a 4+ cover save on 3 Land Raiders, whilst also manoeuvring them into good positions.

It's very easy to say "bring more melta" but that's exactly my issue. If I bring more melta or more Str:10 blasts, I lose my ability against these FMC heavy lists, and lose my strength against X-colour tide lists. This is why I feel TAC is very difficult with such extreme variances in what possible list you could face. Meaning the TAC approach is basically below-average against everything. Rather than previously, I found it was good against everything.


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Pony_law wrote:
the closest list out there to a top tier list without hard counters I see at the moment is the IG/SW blob list.

I've run this a few times. It's very strong, and I enjoy the play style a lot. I find that Heldrakes really hurt though. They chew though the SW troops, which before wasn't an issue due to drop pod, but the turret flamer means even DP troops are in danger without being in CC. They also put the hurt on a blob.
Similarly, FMC lists cause issues. Even with 3 Vendettas, it's rather difficult to actually ground an MC. Normal lists have lot of individual units, but the SW/IG blob has only a few grounding tests it can force. Although it really punishes anything that fails the grounding test...
I suppose a Vulture would drastically help with grounding tests, whilst also aiding against hordes. However it does literally nothing against AV:14.

I do intend to go back to the list building process. Maybe I'll find something inspiring that I never thought of before to aid.

With the introduction of flyers, Helldrakes, nerfed psychic defense, Iron Arm MC(Nids and Daemons), shrouded everywhere(Nurgle), the game itself has shifted to a lot more rock-paper-scissors and random dynamic. An army without psychic defense will probably get destroyed if a greater daemon rolls Iron Arm, MEQs get wiped by Helldrakes while Deathwing laughs at them. A lot of the new units and abilities are amazing against a specific type of units and require specific counters, and some armies lack this kind of counter, which means they have to take allies. However an army list simply doesn't have spare points to spend on specific counters that you may or may not use, which means every list is going to be more or less tailored towards the local/tournament meta.

This is why I think a side-board of sort (like in Magic the Gathering) should be implemented in tournament settings, being able to switch in/out specific units to counter a death-star can make impossible match-ups much more manageable.

 Continuity wrote:
With the introduction of flyers, Helldrakes, nerfed psychic defense, Iron Arm MC(Nids and Daemons), shrouded everywhere(Nurgle), the game itself has shifted to a lot more rock-paper-scissors and random dynamic. An army without psychic defense will probably get destroyed if a greater daemon rolls Iron Arm, MEQs get wiped by Helldrakes while Deathwing laughs at them. A lot of the new units and abilities are amazing against a specific type of units and require specific counters, and some armies lack this kind of counter, which means they have to take allies. However an army list simply doesn't have spare points to spend on specific counters that you may or may not use, which means every list is going to be more or less tailored towards the local/tournament meta.

This is why I think a side-board of sort (like in Magic the Gathering) should be implemented in tournament settings, being able to switch in/out specific units to counter a death-star can make impossible match-ups much more manageable.

Or instead of sideboarding, you can build a balanced list and accept the risk it entails. Balanced TAC lists will very rarely have a strong match up in the current meta, but they will also rarely be faced with an unwinnable match. I brought a balanced Space Marine TAC list to railhead rumble and went 5-1-1 against traditionally tough matchups. My one loss was a narrow loss to Crow purifier spam and my tie was against Tzeentch demons (old Codex) with 3x Flamer squads and 3x Screamer squads. It can be a little frustrating playing a TAC list but once you have a good understanding of what all your units can do and how to best use them, it is still competitive. You just need to include units that can be dual purpose if needed.

PanzerLeader wrote:

 Continuity wrote:
With the introduction of flyers, Helldrakes, nerfed psychic defense, Iron Arm MC(Nids and Daemons), shrouded everywhere(Nurgle), the game itself has shifted to a lot more rock-paper-scissors and random dynamic. An army without psychic defense will probably get destroyed if a greater daemon rolls Iron Arm, MEQs get wiped by Helldrakes while Deathwing laughs at them. A lot of the new units and abilities are amazing against a specific type of units and require specific counters, and some armies lack this kind of counter, which means they have to take allies. However an army list simply doesn't have spare points to spend on specific counters that you may or may not use, which means every list is going to be more or less tailored towards the local/tournament meta.

This is why I think a side-board of sort (like in Magic the Gathering) should be implemented in tournament settings, being able to switch in/out specific units to counter a death-star can make impossible match-ups much more manageable.

Or instead of sideboarding, you can build a balanced list and accept the risk it entails. Balanced TAC lists will very rarely have a strong match up in the current meta, but they will also rarely be faced with an unwinnable match. I brought a balanced Space Marine TAC list to railhead rumble and went 5-1-1 against traditionally tough matchups. My one loss was a narrow loss to Crow purifier spam and my tie was against Tzeentch demons (old Codex) with 3x Flamer squads and 3x Screamer squads. It can be a little frustrating playing a TAC list but once you have a good understanding of what all your units can do and how to best use them, it is still competitive. You just need to include units that can be dual purpose if needed.

I never said TAC lists are not competitive, I'm saying the chances of meeting something you can't deal with is much higher in 6th edition. Some armies have lend themselves to very good TAC lists like vanilla marines, DE, and IG(Being a good player doesn't hurt ether). But for armies with limited competitive builds to begin with like Tau and Necrons, not being able to counter a major threat because your units are simply not suited to deal with it can be frustrating.

Trying to do TAC as the BA is basically impossible at this point.

What sort of TAC lists are you running these days? IG/SW or IG straight?

I would agree that TAC lists keep getting harder to make but they are not impossible. Rather than due to weaknesses in your army it is rather that the number of viable "rock" builds out there is increasing.

I find that for grounding enemy FMC a MSU approach is best. I would normally split my squads uo so IG keep them at 10 man foot units that game so I can hit him with up to 5 grounding tests rather than 1 and I can feed him units.

Against LR spam I will blobb up as it will probably take ~24 lascannon hits to put a 4++ LR down. I also find that those lists have nothing to offer in terms of foot troops on the board so my normal strategy is to run any cheap transports/drop pods right into the enemy deployment zone so they cannot move out of their deployment zone. This works great against the 4 LR list as you only need 4 well placed objects and deployed drop pods are huge. (I use trojan artillery carriages more often but same principle) BTW giving them cover is meaningless as the invulnerable is already better.

Mainly IG/SW. The SW are feeling like a drain on my anti-tank though. I can't bare to lose the Runic Weapon, and then splitting squads is losing the benefit of prescience and ATSKNF from the RP.
I have enough fliers to start causing a lot of grounding tests on turn 2, and put a lot of wounds out on the FMCs. As I said: I can handle pretty much everything with my TAC just not 3 LRCs in one list with a 4++. I'm aware that the 4++ is better than 4+ cover, I was trying to make the point that it's fething hard to hide a Land Raider to provide a 4+ cover, let alone 3.

The issue with the AV:14 is that the cheap troops don't leave until T5. On T5 they have a (I forget the exact dimentions) 10" by 5" wall in front of them that's not always possible to get around and wipe out those small squads in time.
I had one list virtually surround the relic with Land Raiders. My single barrage was unable to do much against 3+ armour (being a manticore to help with hordes). Mechanised guard might have a better chance here.

I'm probably just having a wobble on TAC after coming across what was essentially the same tactic in 2 lists in one tournament. IIRC one lost to a DE list the other went to the final.

"Try getting a 4+ cover save on a Land Raider. Try getting a 4+ cover save on 3 Land Raiders, whilst also manoeuvring them into good positions."

lol thats very easy, run behind a ruin, behind a hill nightfight behind a forest...

It's very easy to say "bring more melta" but that's exactly my issue. If I bring more melta or more Str:10 blasts, I lose my ability against these FMC heavy lists, and lose my strength against X-colour tide lists. This is why I feel TAC is very difficult with such extreme variances in what possible list you could face. Meaning the TAC approach is basically below-average against everything. Rather than previously, I found it was good against everything

How do you feel about melta x2 on the SW? Twi drop pods setting down in front of the LR line should have a chance to hurt them.

Also are you a yes FW or no FW person/meta?

You may want to think about including an additional barrage weapon. Turn 5 when he gets out of the LR just hit the troops with the barrage/SW priest prescience and you should kill a large portion of the squad(hopefully killing them off the objective). This would only set you back 75 pts if you run FW.