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Hi all I'm new to Warmachine and I'm thinking of starting up with Cygnar. I like the looks of eHayley and the Trencher models so I'll probley start with them. What would be a competitive way to build a list around these models and what warjacks would work well with these models? Any addition hit or tips would be awsome.

Those are the exact same models which first sucked me in. It takes a while to get the hang of Trenchers, and they can struggle against a few match ups, but they can be useful. And the models are absolutely killer I reckon, which is enough reason to take them!

If you want to start at 15 points, which is a good place to learn to play without splashing too much, and you want Haley and trenchers, this is a kind of list you can use;

eHaley +5
Hunter 6
Min Trenchers 6
Black 13th 4

This leaves you 4 points to play with. The Hunter can become a Defender, which leaves you with 1 point. With 4 points you could get a charger (I think, memory is a bit fuzzy) or a sentinel or something. If you go Defender route, then you can just get the weapon attachment for Trenchers for 1 pt (not too amazing, but with 1 pt your only other real choice is Reinholdt)

The Hunter (or Defender) gets 2 shots a turn and sits at a respectable Def and Arm (Hunter) or alright Def and quite good ARM (defender) against ranged attacks because of Haley's spell list. The Trenchers and B13 can deal with infantry and solos (2 man CRA's are at effectively RAT 7 and POW 13 with Trenchers, not too bad) or light jacks (with a full CRA/Brutal Damage), Haley can help with deadeye if the solo is someone like Eiryss (with a really high def).

Thanks for the tips I've read a lot of good things about the Defender so that might be my first choice. I noticed you live in Brissy we might have to organise a game sometime. I'm on the Sunny Coast so only an hours drive either way.


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Another quick question. Is it worth taking Maxwell Finn & Trencher Commandos?

I like Finn's ability to give all trencher units within his line of sight +2 to hit with any of their attacks. If I run a lot of Trencher units he could be a good force mulitplier. He also allows eHayley go upto tier 2. 2 units of trencher infantry or commando's allow for tier 3. Is it worth trying build an army around Tier levels?

So sorry I'm such a Noob at this game.

eHaley's tier (gravediggers) is one that I would say is not good when starting out because of a lack of flexibility and no access to some of our best solos and units. Her other tier I have 0 experience with (the storm one) but I've heard good things.

I have next to no experience with finn, and none eith commandos. I reckon Finn would eork best in a very niche trencher list, but thst is definitely not for beginners.

Thanks for the advice. I'll look at ordering a few models over the next week or so. I've heard a lot of good things about the Black 13th so I might do a bit of research into them.

The Black 13th are pretty much an auto include into any Cygnar army. They are probably the best bargain unit in all of Warmachine. For 4 points you are getting an AOE that lets you ignore any stealth standing in it with Lynch, Mage Storm which is absolutely beast with Ryan, and while people always write Watts off I like the fact that he gives the unit stealth while in an area that provides concealment. Pair this all with Gorman Di Wulfe and the unit becomes stupidly powerful. They are just the toolbox of all toolboxes.

That being said Trenchos (Commandos) have a few things going for them. The first being anatomical precision. The fact that if they fail to penetrate the ARM of an enemy model they still will do an automatic point of damage makes them a nightmare for enemy infantry. At MAT 7 they can reliably hit lots of infantry in combat. They suffer from the low DEF/ARM that Trenchers suffer however they counter this with stealth. This means that the only things you need to watch out for are AOEs and auto hitting attacks such as Stormcalls from Cygnar stormcallers as well as models who ignore stealth.

The Defender is one of the best Jacks' for eHaley. The other being the Stormclad. By bonding the jack' to Haley and casting temporal acceleration on him your getting 2 fully boosted POW 15s with a threat range of 27" that will make the opponent think twice about moving his caster too close.

I personally do not use Trencher models I am too stuck on gunmages and mercenaries in my force however they are a good unit that can do work once you learn to use them properly and how to keep them alive.

TheMostWize wrote:

The Defender is one of the best Jacks' for eHaley. The other being the Stormclad. By bonding the jack' to Haley and casting temporal acceleration on him your getting 2 fully boosted POW 15s with a threat range of 27" that will make the opponent think twice about moving his caster too close.

Don't you mean 16"? 5" movement + 2" Telekinesis + 2" Temporal Acceleration + 2" Bond + 3" Charge + 2" Reach. I guess if you have hunters mark from that solo it goes to 18", but I just don't see how you get 27" out of it...

edit: derp I thought you meant the stormclad, you mean the Defender. Dammit I'm off the ball today. It gets even better with deadeye on the Defender, 4 dice to hit pesky dodgy casters and what not.

 motyak wrote:

TheMostWize wrote:

The Defender is one of the best Jacks' for eHaley. The other being the Stormclad. By bonding the jack' to Haley and casting temporal acceleration on him your getting 2 fully boosted POW 15s with a threat range of 27" that will make the opponent think twice about moving his caster too close.

Don't you mean 16"? 5" movement + 2" Telekinesis + 2" Temporal Acceleration + 2" Bond + 3" Charge + 2" Reach. I guess if you have hunters mark from that solo it goes to 18", but I just don't see how you get 27" out of it...

edit: derp I thought you meant the stormclad, you mean the Defender. Dammit I'm off the ball today. It gets even better with deadeye on the Defender, 4 dice to hit pesky dodgy casters and what not.

I was just about to respond by saying I meant the defender and then I saw your edit! Lol. Yea Deadeye on a eHaley bonded Defender is pretty stupid.

I'm actually really staering to like the looks of Gun Mages. An I'm wanting to include a squad or 2 of them. I was considering taking an officer with them and Marshalling either a Sentinel or Defender to them to get the Ranged Attacks Buffs from the officer. Is that even worth it. All the modela I've been looking at work well with the Stormbringers theme as well so might make up a decent army.

Are stormblades any good? I was thinking of throwing in a squad to give a free focus to a stormclad under Haleys command. If so is it worth the extra points for some gunners and/or an officer. I don't want to waist 5 points on a squad though just for 1 free focus though so if they suck I won't bother with them.

Loving all the help so far as well guys keep it comming and thanks. I wouldn't have even considered the Black 13th if it wasn't for this thread.

Well the sentinel isn't actually that useful, since you can only get the runeshot when you fire once, since strafe isn't a normal attack. The cyclone however...

As to stormblades I have no personal experience, but it seems like they'd really need some kind of buff to armour to be really survivable, so if you can get junior into your list and Arcane Shield them they'll probably be more likely to get their points back. I've heard only good things about their UA, but I haven't heard much about their WA.

Cyclone hey I'll check it out. Might run Thorn (for tier) and a Defender attached to Haley. I'll bond the Defender to Haley for the 2" buffs etc. I'll have a look at the Cyclone and if I like it I might Marshall one to unit of Gun Mages with Officer. Is the gun mage solo worth the points or is it better to just run units.

Well the gun mage solo can do some stuff, but I'm not too much of a fan. a) the model isn't my favourite, b) his attack types are brutal damage, snipe and phantom seeker. I don't find snipe on him that useful, because it is just a pow10 rng 14 rat 8 shot. What is that really bringing to your army that you need? Brutal damage is a pow10 rng10 rat 8 weapon master shot (basically). Again, if I want brutal damage shots I'll take B13 or something, use haley's deadeye on the gun mages and probably get 2 or 3 off, something like that. Phantom seeker is his only really interesting attack type in my opinion, and I can't justify a 2 pt solo for 1 ability which only has limited usefulness. But that is just me, if you can find a use for him in your list then go nuts.

Well I was thinking of running a squad of Gun Mages and a Squad of Black 13 so I might not bother with him.

If you are running gun mages, you are better off spending 2 points on their unit attachment than 2 points on the solo, the ua gives them true sight (which is just amazing) and really helps with marshalling effectively.

Also, since this is army list sections, let's see your plan so far

So I was going to start with a 25pt list then expand to a 50 pt list later this is what I'm thinking so far.

25pts

eHaley +5pts
Thorn
Defender (Bonded)
Stormsmith Stormcaller
Stormsmith Stormcaller (Free)
Black 13th
Gun Mages
30/30pts

50pts
eHaley +5pts
Thorn
Defender
Stormsmith Stormcaller
Stormsmith Stormcaller x2 (Both Free)
Captian Arlan Strangewayes
Black 13th
Gun Mages
Officer
Cyclone
Stormsmith Storm Tower x2
45/55pts


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I did put in spaces before each of the units that are attached to others but when I posted it clumped it all together. Thorn and the Defender are with Haley. The gun Mages have the officer and he Marshal's Cyclone.

In the 50ot list I was thinking of putting in a battle engine or ditching the cyclone for 2 to get to Tier 4 both lists currently sit at tier 3.

This is a long post sorry. My comments on each unit are in yellow. I will be focusing on your 25 pt list since that is the start. I have also posted a modified list at the bottom that I find to have much more synergy as whole.

eHaley +5pts
eHaley is probably the best caster Cygnar has. That being said she really loves to have the squire attached to her. The extra 2" control range really makes her feat a nightmare for the enemy and if using a Arc Node leaves pretty much no area her spells cannot reach.
Thorn
Thorn is a good jack' however in this list your really lacking a melee wall that can prevent your gun mages from getting stomped by a charging close combat unit. I would recommend dropping Thorn
Defender (Bonded)
The Defender is an excellent jack' to bond to eHaley with 4 focus loaded onto him and temporal acceleration your getting 2 fully boosted shots that will hurt. The only other jack' that fits her better with the bond is a Stormclad. The Stormclad loaded with focus and with all her movement shenanigans is an assassination nightmare for the enemy.
Stormsmith Stormcaller
Stormsmiths are good 1 point filler units when you are stuck with that annoying last point and need to drop something in. There are other things that will work better with eHaley and with the ATGM and the B13th you really won't have a stealth problem
Stormsmith Stormcaller (Free)
Not sure how this guy is free. The Stormbringers tier lets it be free but only with the purchase of a Storm Tower.
Black 13th
Pretty much an auto include in any Cygnar list. eHaley likes them because they do not need her help to be effective. And if you want them to be effective hit them with Deadeye and laugh at people who think their high DEF is going to save them.
Gun Mages
ATGM make their money when you attach "The Dude" or the Gun Mage Officer. Giving his whole unit True Sight let's them demolish stealth units with ease and with their naturally high defense and eHaley Deceleration they become extremely hard to hit.
30/30pts

This is a modified list that I think has much more synergy as a whole force and gives you the melee punch you will need for dealing with enemy heavy jacks'. I will put comments under the added models since I already commented on most of them in your list.

System: Warmachine
Faction: Cygnar
Casters: 1/1
Points: 25/25
Major Victoria Haley (*5pts)
* Defender (9pts)
* Squire (2pts)
Dropped Thorn and added the Squire. eHaley control area is what makes her so dangerous the more enemies in her feat range the better off you are. The extra focus for 3 turns really helps her cast the spells she needs to cast when she needs to cast them.
Arcane Tempest Gun Mages (Leader and 5 Grunts) (6pts)
* Arcane Tempest Gun Mage Officer (2pts)
If you plan on taking the ATGM just add two more points because you are going to take the Officer. He is simply too good to pass up and take the ATGMs to a completely different level with True Sight. Again with deceleration you can chase down enemy stealth models if needed without worrying too much about getting hit because their DEF is pushed to 17 standing in the open. Park them on a hill and your opponent will probably quit because he has very little chance of hitting them with normal attacks. One thing to remember though if these guys are hit they are dead so watch out for Blast templates.
Black 13th Gun Mage Strike Team (4pts)
Horgenhold Forge Guard (Leader and 5 Grunts) (5pts)
I cannot say enough about these guys. They are Mercenaries and I am not sure if that matters but let me put it like this. Base ARM 16, when in B2B with each other they are at ARM 18, in Deceleration from eHaley they are now ARM 20 against ranged attacks. They are Weapon Masters with Reach. Can you say P+S 11 +4D6 for damage when they get the charge? Yes please! Combine their reach with eHaley feat and charge a unit that does not have reach and guarantee they will get a free turn of hits before they can be attacked back. They are slow but in this army speed is not everything since you are ranged focused.
Gorman di Wulfe, Rogue Alchemist (2pts)
There are a lot of options with the last two points. I like Gorman with the B13. The reason is that because of his smoke bomb ability the B13th will have permanent stealth. Sure there are units that ignore it but unless you are playing Cygnar there aren't that many. Also his Black Oil attack is nasty when combined with the guns of the B13th.

Some alternative options for the 2 pt solo are:

Rhupert Carvolo - Giving your HFFG tough makes them a true nightmare. He can also make them fearless or make them cause terror.
Jonas Murdoch - This is a decent alternative option. Attach him to the HFFG and they become faction friendly which means they now have Ranked Attacks which means you can stand them right in front of your ranged units and your own units will ignore them for LOS! Talk about a nice protective wall! Jonas can also Go to Ground with them (once per game I believe). This gives them cover and makes them immune to blast damage for a round. His other ability Assault doesn't do anything for these guys because they do not have ranged attacks but some of the other things he brings to them is pretty helpful.

3rd edit. Also you will not be in Tier with your current lists because of the Defender. He does not have damage type electric or electro leap.

Awsome thanks for the advice I'll read up on the units you have mentioned and make some changes.

I'm loving the idea of the Forge Guard plus the models look great. I didn't realise that there was a dwarf like race in warmachine I'll include a unit of them for sure.

I will include a Journeyman Warcaster with a Defender in bigger games. The Journeyman has that spell that can add +3 to Arm of a unit which would bring the Forge Guard upto Arm 23 which would be a tough nut to crack. It could also make a few of the Gun Mage units more survivable or boost War Jack Armour or Focus to increase killiness.


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Ok after taking some time to take in what I've learned so far this is what I've come up with for a 50 point army & how I will use each of the units

eHaley +5
(Sit as far back as possible and cast spells)

-Squire 2pts
(For adding Focus and Command Range to Haley)

-Defender (Bonded) 9pts
(This guy will be shooting most of the time but will put out a decent counter charge with his hammer if the enemy gets too close)

-Lancer 6pts
(This guys is here to chanelly spells and tie up enemy Jacks hopfully he can take out Cortex's quickly witg his sheild attacks)

Capt. Arlan Strangewayes 2pts (He is there to repair jacks and put a focus onto the hunter if the Journeyman needs to spend focus on spells etc.)

Journeyman Warcaster 3pts
(He will be mainly casting the spell that gives +3 Arm the whole time then upkeeping it. I will use it on the unit that needs it the most depending on the game.)
- Hunter 6pts
(This guy is there for the boosted caster range he can operate in and his RAT is high enough to need boosting vs most Warjacks so I'll mostly be boosting damage which can be pretty good vs Jacks.)

Black 13th 4pts
Arcane Tempest Gun Mage Team 6pts
- Officer UA 2pts
(I will be going after infantry with these guys and the Black 13th)

Horgenhold Forge Guard 8pts
- Jonas Murdoch 2pts
(These guys will add some bodies to the board and screen units Jonas makes them count a Cygnar so I can ignore them for line of sight. They will make a great counter charge unit and can put out a lot damage.

Rangers 5pts
(These guys will mark targets and allow the hunter to hit better and will mostly be shooting at Infantry. In the rules it say Leader & Grunts but not how many Grunts. Any know how many Grunts?)

55/55 points

So this is what I'm going to work towards is anything in there suckky that I should drop or change?

The ragner units is a unit of 6. Leader and 5 grunts. One thing to think about with the hunter and Jr. is that Jr. only has 3 focus meaning his contral area is only 6 inches. Even doubled that is only 12 inches so just remember that while the hunter has double distance for focus allocation Jr. is going to have to stay pretty close to him to anyways.

Armor 23 on the HHFG is definitely a problem for some armies. Just be sure to watch out for lists that have the ability ignore DEF and ARM benefits from spells (Mage hunter strike force).

In general I think the lsit is pretty good. The rangers are the only thing I could see being swapped out for something else. That is not to say however they do not work in this list.

If you are sold on the Journeyman then take him. If not you might be better served to Marshall the hunter to the gunmages since they can give him the benefit of their rune shots. This coupled with the extra focus from Strangeways means you have the potential to get critical brutal damage plus the focus to boost meaning you are looking at 4d6 damage against half armor jacks. Remember against small base infantry the hunter is garbage so his one and only job should be hunting medium based or higher stuff.

That would save you 3 points which with you could add either version of Eiryss who is always a handy tool to have. Or you could add 3 stormsmith stormcallers. Or a 2 pt solo and a stormsmith. The journeyman is a good option to take just giving you some alternatives since putting the hunter with the gunmages is probably a better option.

Would it work if I droped the Journeyman & the Rangers for a Squad of Trencher Commandos with 2 Splatter guns & placed the Hunter with the Gun Mages. The Commando's will eat single wound Infantry alive which will compensate for the Hunters inability to do anything to small based models. Haley can cast the Ability that allows a model to shoot twice and then the Gun Mages can use a Marshall point to boost damage on the first shot and Strangewayes can give a focus to boost the second shot. If Haley has use telekinetics to spin the Jack backwards the Hunter will be shooting at rear Def with a Decent Rat so has a good chance to do some major damage.

Depending on situation I will either allow the Hunter to to have snipe or the Critical Brutal Damage abilities I can't remember what the third one was off the top of my head but doesn't matter. The more I look at Trencher Commando's the more awsome they look.

I personally have not used the 'Trenchos' I can see their utility it is simply a matter of delivering them. They would be best served as a flank unit probably.

Their stealth will help them survive but as with regular Tranchers they will die if they get hit. They are not that hard to hit with templates so you really would have to be careful for that.

I am planning on picking some of them up soon to give them a try. So I would say go for it. If they get to enemy infantry the enemy is good as dead with their MAT 7.