Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

Alright, after getting smoked off the board over the weekend by DE with the following list, I'm taking a hard look at my HS choices to see where the points could be better spent (actually, the elites are also on the board given their performance).

Here's the list for reference:

Vulkan
Libby w/TA, Force Axe, SS, Gate, NZ

10 Sternguard w/10 Combi-meltas
Drop Pod

10 Tac Marines w/MM, Flamer, Rhino
10 Tac Marines w/MM, Flamer, Rhino
10 Tac Marines w/MM, Flamer, Rhino
10 Tac Marines w/MM, Flamer, Rhino

Stormtalon w/Skyhammer
Stormtalon w/Skyhammer

Vindicator w/Siege Shield
Vindicator w/Siege Shield

The TLDR of the battle was that he got first turn, killed one of the Vindicators with dark lances, my Sternguard came in combat squadded and with a resounding "meh" killed a single Ravagar before getting wiped out, my Stormtalons came in one at a time, allowing him to concentrate Blaster/DL fire to each one (first one vector locked 2nd turn, then blown up 3rd. Second one came in 3rd, blown up on 4th).

My Tac squads were a non-factor due to him being all in skimmers, and being unable to catch up to him, so he was able to pop a rhino and kill the squad inside at his leisure.

So I'm taking a look at the Vindicators and Sternguard, thinking that maybe they aren't all they are cracked up to be in a Vulkan list as it's lacking the long ranged firepower to neutralize faster opponents. So my thoughts on the replacements:

Thunderfire Cannon:
Pros: Arguably the best HS choice in the Marine codex that doesn't have wings given the versatility and ability to deal with hordes and light vehicles at long range.
Cons: T7 3+ cover save with 2 wounds means that depending on the opponent, it can be gone first turn anyway.

Land Raiders
Pros: Heavy duty tank, can carry a tac squad or terminators, can split fire to potentially take down two units in one turn.
Cons: Expensive, and Lance or Melta spam doesn't mean they're all that survivable so multiples should really be taken, which in turn restricts the rest of the list.

Predators
Pros: Dakka preds are relatively cheap, have long range firepower, and I can always sacrifice a Rhino to act as a screen first turn.
Cons: Can be expensive depending on load out, potentially have to focus different types of weapons (ie AC/HBs on the same target).

Stormraven
Pros: Harder to hit, can carry units if needed, good range of weapons, can split fire.
Cons: Vulkan doesn't give it any boosts (the MM is already twin-linked), generally need two to have any survivability, and really expensive models.

Devastators
Pros: Harder to kill by shooting than any of the other options.
Cons: Tends to be more expensive than the Land Raiders, if I combat squad to allow them to deal with two targets a turn, then they lose out on survivability, and can be locked in CC

Vindicators
Pros: That pie plate hits hard, decent price tag.
Cons: Short ranged, incredible fire magnets.

My thought based on above is going with AC/HB dakka preds if I'm going to stick with a mech list.

The other thought I have is that Vulkan really needs to roll with a full (or mostly) drop pod list for the short range alpha strike, in which case I should be looking at going just vanilla with SM until I can get enough drop pods. Any other thoughts or did I miss anything?

nobody wrote:
Alright, after getting smoked off the board over the weekend by DE with the following list, I'm taking a hard look at my HS choices to see where the points could be better spent (actually, the elites are also on the board given their performance).

Here's the list for reference:

Vulkan
Libby w/TA, Force Axe, SS, Gate, NZ

10 Sternguard w/10 Combi-meltas
Drop Pod

10 Tac Marines w/MM, Flamer, Rhino
10 Tac Marines w/MM, Flamer, Rhino
10 Tac Marines w/MM, Flamer, Rhino
10 Tac Marines w/MM, Flamer, Rhino

Stormtalon w/Skyhammer
Stormtalon w/Skyhammer

Vindicator w/Siege Shield
Vindicator w/Siege Shield

The TLDR of the battle was that he got first turn, killed one of the Vindicators with dark lances, my Sternguard came in combat squadded and with a resounding "meh" killed a single Ravagar before getting wiped out, my Stormtalons came in one at a time, allowing him to concentrate Blaster/DL fire to each one (first one vector locked 2nd turn, then blown up 3rd. Second one came in 3rd, blown up on 4th).

My Tac squads were a non-factor due to him being all in skimmers, and being unable to catch up to him, so he was able to pop a rhino and kill the squad inside at his leisure.

So I'm taking a look at the Vindicators and Sternguard, thinking that maybe they aren't all they are cracked up to be in a Vulkan list as it's lacking the long ranged firepower to neutralize faster opponents. So my thoughts on the replacements:

Thunderfire Cannon:
Pros: Arguably the best HS choice in the Marine codex that doesn't have wings given the versatility and ability to deal with hordes and light vehicles at long range.
Cons: T7 3+ cover save with 2 wounds means that depending on the opponent, it can be gone first turn anyway.

Land Raiders
Pros: Heavy duty tank, can carry a tac squad or terminators, can split fire to potentially take down two units in one turn.
Cons: Expensive, and Lance or Melta spam doesn't mean they're all that survivable so multiples should really be taken, which in turn restricts the rest of the list.

Predators
Pros: Dakka preds are relatively cheap, have long range firepower, and I can always sacrifice a Rhino to act as a screen first turn.
Cons: Can be expensive depending on load out, potentially have to focus different types of weapons (ie AC/HBs on the same target).

Stormraven
Pros: Harder to hit, can carry units if needed, good range of weapons, can split fire.
Cons: Vulkan doesn't give it any boosts (the MM is already twin-linked), generally need two to have any survivability, and really expensive models.

Devastators
Pros: Harder to kill by shooting than any of the other options.
Cons: Tends to be more expensive than the Land Raiders, if I combat squad to allow them to deal with two targets a turn, then they lose out on survivability, and can be locked in CC

Vindicators
Pros: That pie plate hits hard, decent price tag.
Cons: Short ranged, incredible fire magnets.

My thought based on above is going with AC/HB dakka preds if I'm going to stick with a mech list.

The other thought I have is that Vulkan really needs to roll with a full (or mostly) drop pod list for the short range alpha strike, in which case I should be looking at going just vanilla with SM until I can get enough drop pods. Any other thoughts or did I miss anything?

Your list is pretty similar to what I run, except I run my tacs in pods and I usually take some TH/SS Terminators in LR's. Though running them against a bunch of dark lances might not be good :(

I'm very surprised your Sternguard didn't do better ...In just about every game I've played, they've always done very well...

The TFC may be a really good option, but I have yet to try it in my lists. I have 3 of them on the way, so we'll see how it goes

Either way, Pods IMO, are the way to go with Vulkan lists. Your Flamers and Melta don't do anything until you get close.

How about some MM attack bikes or land speeders to be able to combine the mobility and the Vulkan buffs?

I might swap the vindis with auto/las preds. They should help with the long range support.

Land Speeders and Bikes did come to mind of course, the big problem being that they'd be competing with the Storm Talons for FA slots (in other words, I'd have room for one unit).

But the gist of what I'm getting is that I may want to hold off on rolling with Vulkan until I can pod up my force.

EDIT: Saw the post about preds....I was thinking along the same lines, either AC/HB or AC/LC depending on available points.

The weakness of your list appears to be that it lacks long ranged firepower, so that's where I would focus any alterations on. However there is also a different tactic that you could use-- instead of rushing your Stormtalons across the board and exposing them to Blaster and Lance fire, why not come on in Hover mode and use the long range of your Skyhammer missiles to fire on the Dark Eldar's light transports from outside of their range?

 Kingsley wrote:
The weakness of your list appears to be that it lacks long ranged firepower, so that's where I would focus any alterations on. However there is also a different tactic that you could use-- instead of rushing your Stormtalons across the board and exposing them to Blaster and Lance fire, why not come on in Hover mode and use the long range of your Skyhammer missiles to fire on the Dark Eldar's light transports from outside of their range?

That's a very good point, and one that escaped me. I learned the hard way not to rely on flyer Jink saves, and by utilizing hover mode, I can bait the transports in closer where the rhino marines can interact.

I think, at this point, I'm going to be looking at magnetizing and setting up the two AC/LC Preds and looking at utilizing the Storm Talons as Skimmers rather than Fliers next time I encounter that list.

maybe take a Master of the forge with conversion beamer and then a couple of heavy iron clads?

I feel that you will get more out of Sterns if they Drop along with something else. Even 2 full squads will be eradicated if dropped unsupported right in the opponent's side (happened to me more than once ). I believe you need 3 pods first turn (with 30 marines) to make an impact and have better chances of survival. The other 2 pods can come later where the game dictates.
The 2 Stormtalons are fine, they work great in pairs.
As above, i would try 2 auto/las preds and try to make room for a Thunderfire (you do not really need TDA for the Libby and the Siege Shields, they are 50 pts) . They work great together (first de-mech and then wipe out the transported troops)...

Your list reminds me of my old Vulkan List... The one recommendation I would make is run the sternguard in a rhino, Drop Pod is nice but the sternguard will die,,, I found the sternguard in a rhino work well. You are presenting targets... 2 vindis do the trick quite well. Drop one sternguard and then Vulkan has his perfect ride... This is pre air days but I used to run MM/HF dreads behind the rhinos and MM bikes... The wall of vindicators and rhinos all popping smoke on T1 present a tough target choice for an opponent.
Your sternguard will live a lot longer...