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Had a situation that happened several days ago.

I will lay it out as impartially as possible, but I could use a little guidance on this matter.

1: I shot down a friend's Vendetta in the vicinity of a multistory ruin.
2: The Vendetta scattered and crashed down.
3: The area of the crash took it directly over his squad on the second level of the ruin.
4: I had a unit on the ground floor of the ruin under his unit.

Who does the model hit, the first unit it contacts on the way down, or the ones on the lowest level?

Just as an aside, if a flyer crashed on top of a non ruined building, would it have an effect on troops firing from the roof and would the wreckage marker be placed on top of the building?

pg 81. It says center the blast marker over the flyer, then scatter. Anything underneath the marker takes the hit.

It doesn't say to put the marker on the table or to pick a level. So, I'd say that both units (second story and ground) take the hit.


Regarding the second set of questions:
Yes, it would effect the troops on the roof.

However, because "the flyer is then taken off the board" there is no wreckage marker that needs to be placed.

It's centered over the flyer so it remains that high, any model on any level should get hit if it's under the blast marker.

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Page 100 BRB wrote:When firing a weapon with the Blast or Large Blast type into a ruin, declare which floor you are aiming at, and continue.

This means that blasts only hit a single floor.

If there is no corresponding level, it instead hits the highest level under the template, and can only wound models on that level.

Since the rules don't cover what happens when a blast scatters into ruins, either a) there is no corresponding level and you therefore hit the highest or b) the blast scatters in on the ground level and therefore hits that level. There is no precedent for hitting every level. I'd lean towards B.

It's not clear that the Blast/Barrage rules on p100 apply, since they seem to be stated in the context of a fired shot.

Crash and Burn on p81 explicitly says that "any model under the blast marker's final position suffers a S6 AP- hit". Since we are talking about the crash/explosion of a vehicle weighing several tonnes, this doesn't seem completely unreasonable.

Would the models get a Cover Save? Yes, and of course the usual rules apply, but where is the Cover measured from?

Does the Out Of Sight rule apply? Yes, but where is the LOS measured from?

If you treat it like a Barrage, it'd be from the top-most level under the centre circle of the Blast.

I'm not really sure if there is a right answer without a FAQ.

Normal blast/large blast shots also hit everything beneath the marker so the C&B wording isn't unique.

rigeld2 wrote:
There is no precedent for hitting every level. I'd lean towards B.

I don't believe we need a precedent. The rules are explicit and state "Any model under.." There is no qualifier for levels. Permissive Ruleset and all.

Explosions for vehicles are treated like shooting. P80

The way this looks to me is that someone gets to choose the level of the ruin. Find a rule in there that says who gets to choose the level but I doubt it's in there.

rigeld2 wrote:
Normal blast/large blast shots also hit everything beneath the marker so the C&B wording isn't unique.

p100 seems to say otherwise unless I am misreading. Blast weapons hit only those models on the targetted (or scattered) level. Ditto Barrage. The picture at the bottom right of the page seems to reinforce this - if every model under the template was hit, 2 of the models on the lower level would be hit, but the caption says they're not.

clively wrote:

rigeld2 wrote:
Normal blast/large blast shots also hit everything beneath the marker so the C&B wording isn't unique.

A crashing flyer is not a weapon, nor is it mentioned anywhere to treat it as a shot.

Great, so it can't cause wounds either.

rigeld2 wrote:
There is no precedent for hitting every level. I'd lean towards B.

We don't need a precedent. The rules are explicit and state "Any model under.." There is no qualifier for levels. Permissive Ruleset and all.

Permissive rules set and all... Would you mind reading the Blast and Large Blast rules and noting the wording they use there?
Is it similar? Oh - it is. Wow. It's like I looked before I posted or something.

Pleas use actual rules to debate.

 liturgies of blood wrote:
Explosions for vehicles are treated like shooting. P80

The way this looks to me is that someone gets to choose the level of the ruin. Find a rule in there that says who gets to choose the level but I doubt it's in there.

The Flyer rules are specific to both the damage caused and the operation of the C&B rules; which are located on 81. "Zooming flyers follow the exceptions given below."... It then outlines the hit, how to scatter the damage, and, most importantly, makes no reference to "resolving as shooting", etc.

The "Explodes!" section for transports on page 80 doesn't apply as that whole section was ignored.

Snapshot wrote:

rigeld2 wrote:
Normal blast/large blast shots also hit everything beneath the marker so the C&B wording isn't unique.

p100 seems to say otherwise unless I am misreading. Blast weapons hit only those models on the targetted (or scattered) level. Ditto Barrage. The picture at the bottom right of the page seems to reinforce this - if every model under the template was hit, 2 of the models on the lower level would be hit, but the caption says they're not.

Correct.
Now read the Blast and Large Blast rules on page 33. Here, ill make it easy by quoting what I'm talking about...

the unit suffers one hit for each model with its base fully or partially beneath the blast marker (see diagram).

So normally they hit models the same way.
C&B doesn't mention ruins whatsoever, so we don't have any idea how to handle it - the game halts.
Or we use the rules on page 100 to handle, I don't know, a Large Blast in a ruin.

Just a thought.

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clively wrote:

rigeld2 wrote:

clively wrote:

rigeld2 wrote:
Normal blast/large blast shots also hit everything beneath the marker so the C&B wording isn't unique.

A crashing flyer is not a weapon, nor is it mentioned anywhere to treat it as a shot.

Great, so it can't cause wounds either.

You've got to be kidding. Never mind that I removed that from my post.

Great, so you've conceded that its a shot. No, I wasn't kidding - read the rules for causing wounds, etc - they all reference a shot (for non-CC wounds). If its not a shot or CC it doesn't wound.

I am. Why don't you use rules that actually apply. Like the ones on 81 that, gasp, cover C&B.

What part of the C&B rule covers ruins? I'm obviously missing it.

Rigeld that isn't true, there are many ways to populate a wound pool or inflict wounds that isn't shooting or cc.

 liturgies of blood wrote:
Rigeld that isn't true, there are many ways to populate a wound pool or inflict wounds that isn't shooting or cc.

And they all specify how to allocate, etc. Does Crash and Burn?

Honestly? You're told repeatedly how to populate wound pools and how to empty them. Once you have S, AP and a metric on how many wounds are inflicted what more do you need?

Random allocation would apply here as you can't be sure where the damage is coming from.

rigeld2 wrote:

I am. Why don't you use rules that actually apply. Like the ones on 81 that, gasp, cover C&B.

What part of the C&B rule covers ruins? I'm obviously missing it.

They don't need to "cover ruins". "Any model under..." gives us everything we need to know.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 liturgies of blood wrote:
Honestly? You're told repeatedly how to populate wound pools and how to empty them. Once you have S, AP and a metric on how many wounds are inflicted what more do you need?

Random allocation would apply here as you can't be sure where the damage is coming from.

I'm glad to agree with you today.

clively wrote:

rigeld2 wrote:

I am. Why don't you use rules that actually apply. Like the ones on 81 that, gasp, cover C&B.

What part of the C&B rule covers ruins? I'm obviously missing it.

They don't need to "cover ruins". "Any model under..." gives us everything we need to know.

So we don't even need the rules on page 100 then, as a similar clause exits in B&LB.
good to know.

 liturgies of blood wrote:
Honestly? You're told repeatedly how to populate wound pools and how to empty them. Once you have S, AP and a metric on how many wounds are inflicted what more do you need?

Random allocation would apply here as you can't be sure where the damage is coming from.

I'm glad to agree with you today.

You need a method of allocation, as you noticed.
Also, you'd need to apply Out of Sight since there's no exception...

Well since there is no shooting out of sight don't apply.
If you can show reason why it applies please give it.
I only assumed random allocation as there is no clear direction from where the damage is coming which is one of the reasons to use it in its section, i'd do it as per barrage but it's not barrage.

Why are you all referencing rules that pertain to weapons? Crash and burn does not use the Blast/Large Blast USR, it uses the MARKER to designate how many models are hit.

Show me where in the Crash and Burn rules that it uses the USR Blast/Large Blast. You won't, btw.

rigeld2 wrote:
So we don't even need the rules on page 100 then, as a similar clause exits in B&LB.
good to know.

Just because C&B makes no mention of treating the crash as a weapon doesn't mean that an actual weapon isn't treated as one. That's a non-starter.

Also, you'd need to apply Out of Sight since there's no exception...

Again, not needed. It's not a weapon. It hits the models under the marker.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Kevin949 wrote:
Why are you all referencing rules that pertain to weapons? Crash and burn does not use the Blast/Large Blast USR, it uses the MARKER to designate how many models are hit.

"you all" in this case only means rigeld.

Sorry I really wasn't paying attention to who exactly was saying what, just reading the posts.

Also rigeld even if you believe that all attacks that aren't defined with a method of allocation are treated as shooting attacks where would you be working on out of sight from?
Would out of range not also apply?

 Kevin949 wrote:
Why are you all referencing rules that pertain to weapons? Crash and burn does not use the Blast/Large Blast USR, it uses the MARKER to designate how many models are hit.

Let me start here...

We know Designer's Notes are rules, yes? (Reference the BRB FAQ on Nobz, etc.)
Would you consider the following a Designer's Note?
"Multi-level ruins require certain conventions and clarifications to ensure that Template, Blast or Large Blast weapons behave in a consistent fashion, and to keep the game moving."
(emphasis mine)
It's obviously not fluff (its not describing a "cinematic" reason why these rules exist).

To make sure the game progresses in a consistent fashion and to keep the game moving, all markers must follow those rules. That or they do not interact with Ruins whatsoever.

Saying that C&B doesn't follow page 100 because it doesn't have the USR is ludicrous. First of all, the Random Allocation rules are in the shooting section - where's your permission to reference them without being a shooting attack? (Note that they're part of step 4 in resolving a shooting attack). Second, we have the designers note - its as much a rule as the rest of the text.

Ok, I accept that as a valid way of resolving a blast from the explosion hitting a ruin,ie that you have to choose the level, problem still is who chooses? Since it's not clear should it be the controlling player's choice?

It doesn't mean it has to be a shooting attack though.

 liturgies of blood wrote:
Also rigeld even if you believe that all attacks that aren't defined with a method of allocation are treated as shooting attacks where would you be working on out of sight from?
Would out of range not also apply?

All attacks with no defined allocation method just don't work RAW. I've held this position in many threads.
RAI they should use random and C&B would ignore LoS and OoR.

Even if you disagree with me RAW, the intent can't be any clearer - read the first paragraph on page 100.

Well while I think we'd not argue while playing a game, I just don't see a reason to apply LOS and OOR.

As I said above, I think that's a valid way of dealing with this situation, I just don't think it makes it a shooting attack.

 liturgies of blood wrote:
Well while I think we'd not argue while playing a game, I just don't see a reason to apply LOS and OOR.

As I said above, I think that's a valid way of dealing with this situation, I just don't think it makes it a shooting attack.

So again - why are you referencing shooting attack rules when it's not a shooting attack?
Page and paragraph for permission, please.