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Like if you have a missile launcher in an IG command squad of any kind, 2 meltas, 1 plasma pistol (weird configuration but just as an example)

They all fire at the closest vehicle (within 12"), the first shot destroys it, then the missile launcher's range of 36" allows the remaining hits to go against the next vehicle in the squadron which is out of range of the 12".

This is how I interpret the rules anyway is there anyone who can shed light on why this isn't the case? (Fairness doesn't count)

I'd love it if GW could clarify this on the FAQ.

This could mean if you have a column of Leman Russ, or squad of sentinels the whole squad could be wiped out by 12" special weapons with the range of a weaker weapon.

Well i know with one of the new FAQs, you can hit out side of range as long as one weapon is in range at least against regular infantry.

but im not 100% sure on vehicles but according to the brb, it states that it is resolved exactly as if you would resolve wounds on a normal unit.

So you would shoot all of your eligible weapons at the closest tank. then resolve armor pen one at a time until each model is wrecked or exploded.

I still find that obsurd to be honest...

How a 48" inch Missle Launcer can "carry" Rapid Fire Plasma gun shots at extra 36"....

Yep the rules are ridiculous but that was how it was written. (or more hilarious faqed) so its best to talk with your opponent before you start.

I think before the FAQ you didn't even need a higher range weapon to shoot out of range, and the out of range fire was infinite before the FAQ lol.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Bloodhorror wrote:
I still find that obsurd to be honest...

How a 48" inch Missle Launcer can "carry" Rapid Fire Plasma gun shots at extra 36"....

Technically it's only an extra 24" because rapid fire just means the plasmagun fires 2 shots if within 12" and 1 shot if further than 12". It doesn't add "2 shots up to 12", just simply says 2 shots (presumably 2 standard plasmagun shots).

Agreed with other posters.

Absolutely absurd but completely RAW: If the firing unit has 1 weapon that is firing that is in range of ALL the models, then ALL of the models may be wounded by even those weapons that couldn't normally hurt them.

At this point it behooves you to take a long range weapon in any short range shooty unit. Even if you have to snap fire it, it means the other weapons can wound things outside of their normal range.

Now, to be sure, the short range weapons still have to be able to reach the closest model to begin with. For example, if the flyers were all at a 34" range then none of the plasma weapons could have shot to begin with.

clively wrote:
Agreed with other posters.

Absolutely absurd but completely RAW: If the firing unit has 1 weapon that is firing that is in range of ALL the models, then ALL of the models may be wounded by even those weapons that couldn't normally hurt them.

At this point it behooves you to take a long range weapon in any short range shooty unit. Even if you have to snap fire it, it means the other weapons can wound things outside of their normal range.

Now, to be sure, the short range weapons still have to be able to reach the closest model to begin with. For example, if the flyers were all at a 34" range then none of the plasma weapons could have shot to begin with.

Yeah for sure

I think this should be urgently FAQed because it is potentially game breaking.

They should add that when shooting vehicle squadrons that "shooting attacks should be resolved as if each individual vehicle was a single unit" perhaps.

It's not even being pedantic, it is plain and simple RAW that you can carry melta shots to vehicles up to 48" lol.

I think the furthest distance in practice is 12" + length of a tank + 4"+ length of a tank + 4"

Let's say a leman russ is 6" (I don't have one at hand), that means a melta can hit and destroy a leman russ 32" away if the front two get destroyed.

How is it potentially game breaking?

Seriously, this isn't that big a deal. No one blinked when a Melta shot had a 30" range in 5th (because I allocated to the farthest vehicle in the unit) but now in 6th its game breaking?

That's correct all squad can be taken because of a single weapon.

Although i am always amazed by people who didn't had a problem with this for years since the 5th and now because of an faq, which doesn't change much; everybody goes crazy about how it is illogical for melta shots to reach.

Sorry to derail the thread, but everytime i see somebody whine about that faq entry, i feel like asking "Why wasnt this a problem for the first months of 6th edition?"

Edit:ninjad by rigeld2

The FAQ actually did change quite a bit.
But yeah - I'm amazed at the number of "THAT CAN'T BE RIGHT IT'S BROKENZ" that I've seen here and in real life over this rule.

The FAQ isn't a problem for troop units. That's what I always expected.

In fact in 4th and 5th couldn't you even kill models out of line of sight? Things have only got better in that regard.

However I always thought of vehicles as being something you should get right up close to with meltas and things. They are generally, however squadrons ruin this. For some reason I thought they would be considered differently to troops when firing at them. Especially since they have such far coherency.

You have 3 vehicles strewn across a distance of 20 instances like so:
O O O
x <-- your squad

Rather than targetting one, it sprays rabidly with it's close range weapons and manages to pull this off because the officer had a bolter.
X( X( X(


Maybe this has never been brought up before because Squadrons of vehicles are rare (At least in my experience, I have never seen one but plan to field several - at least until now)

The standard mindset of shooting at vehicles is usually that you're targeting one single vehicle I guess. This is just a shock to the system when you actually realise the facts! lol

I guess I feel it makes the point cost of >1 vehicle worth a lot less.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
I had a further thought to equate it to.

In my mindset it's like.. if you shoot at a squad in an IG infantry platoon and you wipe them off with wounds left still in range of other squads in the same platoon, you can allocate them to the next squad in that platoon.

That's why I don't like this

Which faq question are you guys talking about?

I can't seem to find any faq dealing range and shooting.

Page 3. last one on the right.

"When making a Shooting attack against a unit, can Wounds from the Wound Pool be allocated to models that were not within range any of the shooting models when To Hit rolls were made (i.e. half the targeted model are in the shooting models' range, and half are not)? (p15).

No.

The problem is: "not within range any of the shooting models when To Hit rolls were made" (sic).

Basically, if one of the shooting models has range to any enemy model at the time of rolling the hit, then wounds may be allocated up to the longest range of any given shooting weapon. It's just piss poor wording.

ahh I see, but how is that any different from what the "Allocate Wounds" section says? It doesn't mention range in it, it just says to allocate until the pool is emptied or the unit is destroyed.

Doesn't that have the same effect?


Edit:

Seems to me that the FAQ adds a small limit to the rule.

Yeah the FAQ made the wounding more limited. Before everything in the enemy unit could die. Now only enemies up to the max range of the firing squad can die.

Thanks to clively for re-posting the FAQ. Is it relevant to attacks on vehicles, since vehicles don't get Wounded - they get Glancing and Penetrating hits? I can see the logic in wanting to extend the FAQ to cover hits against vehicles too, but...

This thread has nothing to do with any existing FAQ entry btw.

My gaming folks resolved this by using different colored dice for each weapon when hits are rolled, then allocating the wounds according to the appropriate max range of the weapons fired. It may currently go against RAW, but we feel good about it....seems more legit. We understand that this wouldn't be allowed at tourneys.

I don't get it. Because the question uses the word ANY, "can wounds from the wound pool be allocated to models that were not within range of ANY of the shooting models" and GW says No, they cannot, this is interpreted as, but if ANY do they all can? I understand RAW, but please, that just seems either bad wording, an attempt at deliberate chicanery on the questioner's part, or over interpretation of the reading of the question and answer.

Maybe its just me but I read that Q&A as, "If I fire at a unit and my model's weapon doesn't have range to hit the models deeper in the unit, even though I had range to the ones in front but they have been removed, can I still allocate wounds to them? No."

Please note I am not saying anyone is incorrect here. I can see if how someone might make the argument but only by twisting that Q&A on a torture rack.

Rumbleguts wrote:
I don't get it. Because the question uses the word ANY, "can wounds from the wound pool be allocated to models that were not within range of ANY of the shooting models" and GW says No, they cannot, this is interpreted as, but if ANY do they all can? I understand RAW, but please, that just seems either bad wording, an attempt at deliberate chicanery on the questioner's part, or over interpretation of the reading of the question and answer.

Maybe its just me but I read that Q&A as, "If I fire at a unit and my model's weapon doesn't have range to hit the models deeper in the unit, even though I had range to the ones in front but they have been removed, can I still allocate wounds to them? No."

Please note I am not saying anyone is incorrect here. I can see if how someone might make the argument but only by twisting that Q&A on a torture rack.

Pre-FAQ, as long as a firing model had range to at least one model in the target unit when rolling to hit, then damage caused by that firing model could be allocated to any model in the target unit that was within line of sight of at least one firing model...in other words, the casualty could be unlimited range from the firing model as long as he was within range of at least one model when rolling to hit.

Post-FAQ, they simply put a cap on how far casualties can be pulled based on the furthest range of any firing model in the firing unit. A firing model still has to be within range of at least one model in the target unit to be able to cause any damage, but once he is, then the maximum range for casualties caused by his particular shooting is still equal to the longest range of the firing unit.

So this FAQ answer is a RESTRICTION on how far casualties can be removed based on the printed rules. It is not cheesy, under-handed or any other number of derogatory terms.

range now behaves almost exactly like line of sight...you check each firing model when the unit begins its shooting to make sure they are in range and LOS of at least one model in the target unit...if they are, then they can shoot.

Then, when it comes time to actually allocate wounds onto models in the target unit, you check to see which models in the target unit are within LOS and range of at least one model in the firing unit. As long as they are (within range and LOS of at least one firing model), then they are valid to be casualties.

Simple, easy, and not crazy.


And actually this does have something to do with the OP. Since the rules for shooting at squadrons says that you allocate hits across the squadron 'exactly like you would resolve Wounds on a normal unit', it stands to reason that any FAQ question clarifying how wound allocation works would also apply to vehicle squadrons (in lieu of anything more specific). Now, its certainly not spelled out 100% clearly, but I think most people can connect the dots across GW's sloppy writing and see that you're probably supposed to follow a similar set of rules when resolving hits against vehicle squadrons as you are with wounds on regular units.

I'll point out what I did in the other thread. For now, as mentioned, it stands that indeed, hits from weapons can be allocated to vehicles outside their own range as long as another model in the unit has range to them.
Silly? Nonsensical? Perhaps - but those are the rules, that's what YMDC is here for. If you want to house rule it, feel free.

HOWEVER. I wouldn't worry so much about the melta shots. Because you check for the melta's range when making the armour penetration roll, the situation described would mean that you only get the base D6 to roll, and not the extra D6 the Melta rule gives you.

Another point to make... how often do you see units like this? If I saw a Devastator squad with 2 multimeltas and 2 heavy bolters, I'd laugh internally. That squad is wasting half its points every turn.

 Super Ready wrote:
I'll point out what I did in the other thread. For now, as mentioned, it stands that indeed, hits from weapons can be allocated to vehicles outside their own range as long as another model in the unit has range to them.
Silly? Nonsensical? Perhaps - but those are the rules, that's what YMDC is here for. If you want to house rule it, feel free.

Except that the firing model still must be within range of at least one visible model in the target unit or that firing model does not shoot.

So a MM in a squad with Heavy Bolters stil needs to be within 24" of at least one visible model in the target unit to shoot at all.